Jesus Christ Claims to be Yahweh - John 8:23-25

[follower]

on and on and on it goes

... ... ...

 

[Runningman]

Simply PROVE what I say in #121 is wrong

Prove that Jesus Christ is not YHWH after reading Matthew 3.3 and Isaiah 40.3

No need to prove it wrong. We have big names in the Trinitarian academic and scholarly community, people with reputations and credentials who disagree with you. We also have all of the modern Bibles that have been rightly adjusted to reflect better information that has been proven true.

I will ask this again. What do you gain from rigidly clinging to a translation of a verse that been proven to be false instead of just adjusting as the truth is revealed?

 

[Free]

The Bible says Jesus isn't God. I am simply a messenger. If you don't like it, that's ok. Few do, but I didn't write the Bible. Take it up with God.

The Bible is abundantly clear that Jesus is God the Son in human flesh.

God is not a man:

1. “God is not a man” – Numbers 23:19
2. “For I am God, and not man,” – Hosea 11:9

No, God isn’t, but what does that have to do with the Son of God coming in human flesh many hundreds of years after those verses were written?

Jesus is called a man many times:

1. “a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.” – John 8:40
2. “a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.” – Acts 2:22
3. “He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed.” – Acts 17:31
4. “the man Christ Jesus,” – 1 Timothy 2:5

Of course he is, because he is truly human and that is how his disciples perceived him, in the flesh.

Jesus denied being God:

1. “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone” – Luke 18:19
2. “Why do you ask Me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good.” – Matthew 19:17

How, exactly, are those denials of being God?

Contrary to the accusations of blasphemy against him, Jesus said he is a man:
1. “you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.” – John 8:40

Did Jesus not appear as a man? No one is denying that Jesus is truly human. Besides, you have divorced this verse from the context. First, in verse 23, Jesus says he is from above and not of this world. We should take him at his word. Second, in verse 58 Jesus claims to be the I Am, which is why the Jews wanted to stone him for blasphemy.

God is greater than Jesus:

1. “the Father is greater than I.” – John 14:28
2. “My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all.” – John 10:29

Jesus worshipped the Only True God:

1. “ that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” John 17:3
2. “He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.” – Luke 6:12
3. “the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve,” – Matthew 20:28

Jesus prayed to God:

1. “He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed,” – Matthew 26:39
2. “in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,” – Hebrews 5:7

If Jesus was the Son of God in human flesh, being God in nature himself, what do you think we should expect him to say of the Father? How do you think we should see him treat the Father and behave towards him?

The disciples did not believe Jesus is God:

1. “Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know” – Acts 2:22
2. “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, “ – Acts 3:13
3. “God, having raised up His Servant Jesus” – Acts 3:26

They sure did:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
…
Jhn 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

Jhn 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (ESV)

Jesus is God’s servant:

1. ““Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen, My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased!” – Matthew 12:18

Of course he is, but how does that mean he cannot also be God?

Jesus cannot do anything of himself:

1. “the Son can do nothing of Himself,” – John 5:19
2. “I can of Myself do nothing.” – John 5:30

Of course. Phil 2:6-8 is key to understanding those things.

If Jesus is truly God in nature, God the Son in human flesh, do you think that it would necessarily mean he would be limited in what he can do? Do you think he might purposely limit what he can do, so as not to reveal his true glory? What could or should we expect Jesus to say when he willingly made himself subject to the Father for the purpose of salvation?

 

[BB1956]

Simply PROVE what I say in #121 is wrong

Prove that Jesus Christ is not YHWH after reading Matthew 3.3 and Isaiah 40.3

I've read Matthew 3:3 and Isaiah 40:3 and not once when reading these scriptures in my study of the scriptures, have these scriptures ever led me to deny that YHWH God has an only begotten Son. Matthew, like the writers of the other Gospels, shows Matthew 3:3 is about John the Baptist preparing the way of Jesus and this e who would follow him. John's role was to symbolically "clear the path" for Jesus by calling Israel to repent of sin and turn back the way to God. If they did so, they would be ready to follow God's Son.
Scriptures like John 17:3 or John 20:17 prove that YHWH God is the only True God and he has an only begotten Son. I understand that there are those who don't believe that YHWH God has an only begotten Son that existed in heaven with God before he sent him to mankind as a human to die for mankind. However the apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God.(John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). John calling Jesus the only begotten Son of God, isn't in reference to his human birth or to him as just a man Jesus. As the Logos, or Word , this one was in the beginning with God, even before the world was. (John 1:1,2; 17:5, 24) At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the only begotten Son whom his Father sent into the world. (1John 4:9)

If anyone chooses to believe that the only begotten Son of God didn't exist in heaven with God before becoming human, that's their choice. However I'm going to disagree with them. I believe that the only begotten Son of God existed in heaven with God as the Word before becoming human. That the only begotten Son of God who is the Word was with God in the beginning, and that it was the only begotten Son of God who is the Word that became flesh/human. That it was the only begotten Son of God who died for mankind and then the only True God resurrected his only begotten Son from the dead three days after his death.

 

[BB1956]

free said,
"Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
…
Jhn 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

Jhn 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (ESV)[/QUOTE\]

John 1:1a says, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. At John 1:1a in the first instance of the word theos(God) the Greek word "ton" (the) is before the Greek word theos(God) so John 1:1a is saying, "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with "the God" so the Word can't be the God because this scripture shows that the Word is with the God. The Word who is the only begotten Son of God, can't be with "the God" and also be the same person as God. John 1: 2 makes it clearly known that the Word was with the God.
John 1:3 teaches me that God created all things through his Word who is the only begotten Son of God.

John 1:18 is teaching me that no one has ever seen God, God's Word, who is the only begotten god, who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained God.

It's true that Thomas said to Jesus Christ at John 20:28, "My Lord and my God," but we have to remember that at John 20:17 Jesus said after he had been resurrected, that he has a Father and God who is also his apostles and disciples Father and God, this would include Thomas. So Jesus isn't saying he is the Father and God of his apostles and disciples, so what Thomas said at John 20:28 doesn't disprove what Jesus Christ said at John 20:17. The apostles including Thomas have a Father and God who is Jesus Christ's Father and God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings BB1956,

However the apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God.(John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). John calling Jesus the only begotten Son of God, isn't in reference to his human birth or to him as just a man Jesus.

I enjoyed reading your two posts and you are very clear in what you state. I agree with much of what you narrated, except I understand "the only begotten Son of God" does refer to Jesus' conception and birth Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14. I consider both JWs and Trinitarians have a real problem with the titles Father / Son, and in what way did God the Father beget The Son of God or God the Son? From a JW perspective, were all the Angels also "begotten", or were they only "created"?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BB1956]

Greetings BB1956,

I enjoyed reading your two posts and you are very clear in what you state. I agree with much of what you narrated, except I understand "the only begotten Son of God" does refer to Jesus' conception and birth Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35, John 1:14. I consider both JWs and Trinitarians have a real problem with the titles Father / Son, and in what way did God the Father beget The Son of God or God the Son? From a JW perspective, were all the Angels also "begotten", or were they only "created"?

Kind regards
Trevor

All living creatures on earth or in heaven(angels) were created. The only person not part of creation is the only True God YHWH. God having an only begotten Son doesn't mean he wasn't created, and the only begotten Son, being called the only begotten Son of God does not mean that other spirit creatures(angels) produced were not God's sons, for they are called sons as well.(Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:4-7) The Hebrew word monogenes is translated as only begotten. However, the only begotten Son being called the only begotten Son means he is the sole direct creation of his Father, and God who is YHWH. So the firstborn Son was unique, different from all others of God's sons, all of whom were created or begotten by YHWH God through the firstborn Son. So "the Word" was YHWH God's only begotten Son, which means the only begotten Son was directly created by YHWH God and then all other angels and human beings, were created indirectly because they were created by YHWH God through his only begotten Son. So the only begotten Son of God being called the only begotten Son of God is called the only begotten Son of God in a particular sense, even as Isaac was Abraham's only begotten Son in a particular sense( his Father already having another son but not by his wife Sarah.(Hebrews 11:17; Genesis 16:15)

That the only begotten Son's sonship didn't begin with his human birth is seen from Jesus own statements, as when he said, "what things I have seen with my Father I speak"(John 8:38, 42; John 17:5, 24), as well as from other clear statements of his inspired apostles.(Romans 8:3; Galatians 4:4; 1 John 4:9-11, 14)

The Word is the only begotten Son of God and his preeminent position among God’s creatures as the Firstborn, the one through whom God created all things, and as God’s Spokesman, gives real basis for his being called “a god” or mighty one. The Messianic prophecy at Isaiah 9:6 foretold that he would be called “Mighty God,”(El Gibbor) though not God Almighty(El Shaddai)

 

[SolaScriptura]

I've read Matthew 3:3 and Isaiah 40:3 and not once when reading these scriptures in my study of the scriptures, have these scriptures ever led me to deny that YHWH God has an only begotten Son. Matthew, like the writers of the other Gospels, shows Matthew 3:3 is about John the Baptist preparing the way of Jesus and this e who would follow him. John's role was to symbolically "clear the path" for Jesus by calling Israel to repent of sin and turn back the way to God. If they did so, they would be ready to follow God's Son.
Scriptures like John 17:3 or John 20:17 prove that YHWH God is the only True God and he has an only begotten Son. I understand that there are those who don't believe that YHWH God has an only begotten Son that existed in heaven with God before he sent him to mankind as a human to die for mankind. However the apostle John repeatedly describes the Lord Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God.(John 1:14; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). John calling Jesus the only begotten Son of God, isn't in reference to his human birth or to him as just a man Jesus. As the Logos, or Word , this one was in the beginning with God, even before the world was. (John 1:1,2; 17:5, 24) At that time while in his prehuman state of existence, he is described as the only begotten Son whom his Father sent into the world. (1John 4:9)

If anyone chooses to believe that the only begotten Son of God didn't exist in heaven with God before becoming human, that's their choice. However I'm going to disagree with them. I believe that the only begotten Son of God existed in heaven with God as the Word before becoming human. That the only begotten Son of God who is the Word was with God in the beginning, and that it was the only begotten Son of God who is the Word that became flesh/human. That it was the only begotten Son of God who died for mankind and then the only True God resurrected his only begotten Son from the dead three days after his death.

Matthew 3:3 and the other Gospels are very clear, that the Prophecy in Isaiah 40:3, The Coming of YHWH, is FULFILLED in the Coming of Jesus Christ.

As for verses like John 17:3, 1 Timothy 1:17, says that Jesus Christ is, "the Only Wise God"! https://christianforums.net/threads/jesus-christ-the-only-wise-god.101491/

John also shows in chapter 1 of his Gospel, that Jesus Christ IS Almighty God, and 100% COEQUAL with the Father! https://christianforums.net/threads/the-incomparable-jesus-christ-in-the-prologue-of-john.102456/

In his Revelation, Jesus Christ IS Almighty God, https://christianforums.net/threads/jesus-christ-is-almighty-god.102687/

In Titus 2:13, Jesus Christ is THE GREAT GOD AND SAVIOUR, https://christianforums.net/threads/jesus-christ-our-great-god-and-saviour.88387/

In Hebrews 1:8, God the Father addresses Jesus Christ as "O God", https://christianforums.net/threads/your-throne-o-god-o-god-your-god.88389/

In Psalm 110:1, we have YHWH speaking to YHWH, https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-110-1-yahweh-said-to-yahweh.101822/

In Isaiah chapter 40 and Zechariah chapter 2, we read of YHWH sending YHWH, Jesus Christ, https://christianforums.net/threads/yahweh-sends-yahweh.101710/

These are FACTS from the Bible, and NOT what you say based on your "theology"!

 

[Runningman]

The Bible is abundantly clear that Jesus is God the Son in human flesh.


No, God isn’t, but what does that have to do with the Son of God coming in human flesh many hundreds of years after those verses were written?


Of course he is, because he is truly human and that is how his disciples perceived him, in the flesh.


How, exactly, are those denials of being God?


Did Jesus not appear as a man? No one is denying that Jesus is truly human. Besides, you have divorced this verse from the context. First, in verse 23, Jesus says he is from above and not of this world. We should take him at his word. Second, in verse 58 Jesus claims to be the I Am, which is why the Jews wanted to stone him for blasphemy.


If Jesus was the Son of God in human flesh, being God in nature himself, what do you think we should expect him to say of the Father? How do you think we should see him treat the Father and behave towards him?


They sure did:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
…
Jhn 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

Jhn 20:28 Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (ESV)



Of course he is, but how does that mean he cannot also be God?


Of course. Phil 2:6-8 is key to understanding those things.

If Jesus is truly God in nature, God the Son in human flesh, do you think that it would necessarily mean he would be limited in what he can do? Do you think he might purposely limit what he can do, so as not to reveal his true glory? What could or should we expect Jesus to say when he willingly made himself subject to the Father for the purpose of salvation?

God isn't a nature and that's all. So the fact that someone like Jesus has the divine nature, a nature can't be singled out as the something he has that would allegedly make him God. Partaking of the divine nature is something that Peter said normal believers can do.

2 Peter 1​

4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.​

With that being said, someone with a divine nature has the nature of God because God's nature is divine too. So the thing that some say is what makes Jesus God isn't something exclusive to Jesus. God has things about Him that are exclusive such as being God, not being a man, certain titles, being the Creator, and other characteristics like omniscience, omnipresence, etc.

The things that are God's exclusives, Jesus doesn't have. Jesus isn't omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, isn't the Creator of the universe, doesn't share all of the titles with God, wasn't immortal, etc.

I believe where Trinitarians misunderstand Jesus is that Jesus was a man whom God anointed, empowered, and dwelled with but that Jesus isn't himself God. Jesus is the brother of believers and we are called to be like him.

Yes I am aware of what Trinitarian theology is and why they believe what they do, but rather than go after each point you gave me I will simply disagree, but ask you a question in return. If you had to pick one thing about Jesus that undeniably says he is God beyond all doubt in your view, what would it be?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again BB1956,

The Hebrew word monogenes is translated as only begotten. However, the only begotten Son being called the only begotten Son means he is the sole direct creation of his Father, and God who is YHWH

I appreciate the thorough response, but you reflect the JW teaching and environment. I attribute "only begotten" as referring to the conception/birth of Jesus as a human.
Matthew 1:20–21 (KJV): 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived (mg: Gk begotten) in her is of the Holy Ghost. 21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Isaac was Abraham's only begotten Son in a particular sense

The circumstances surrounding Isaac, pointed forward to the birth, development and sacrifice of Jesus.

as God’s Spokesman, gives real basis for his being called “a god” or mighty one.

The expression "a god" is almost uniquely JW language, and does not agree with the Bible use of "Elohim".

The Messianic prophecy at Isaiah 9:6 foretold that he would be called “Mighty God,”(El Gibbor)

I am not sure of the JW view of this, but I have already disagreed with the Trinitarian position on this.

Over the years I have had a reasonable amount of interaction with JWs at home, at work and on forums. I am now 80 y.o. and my first encounter was at the door with an older man, and a father and his son, say 16 y.o. We discussed the kingdom, but they insisted that the nation of Israel would have no future part. As a result of their visit I purchased a green NWT and later the "Let God be True" book. Down the track I marked many places where I disagreed with what the Book taught. Both the visit and the Book ensured that I did not become a JW.

About 60 years later I have made a brief summary of where I disagree with one of the latest JW publications, and was still surprised at the many differences, the Kingdom, the person of Jesus Christ, Jesus is still a human, the reward of the faithful, Israel and the nations throughout the 1000 years, the Name of God, Yahweh, the resurrection of Jesus as a human and many other topics. I will not discuss these in this thread.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BB1956]

SolaScriptura said,
"As for verses like John 17:3, 1 Timothy 1:17, says that Jesus Christ is, "the Only Wise God"! https://christianforums.net/threads/jesus-christ-the-only-wise-god.101491/

John also shows in chapter 1 of his Gospel, that Jesus Christ IS Almighty God, and 100% COEQUAL with the Father! https://christianforums.net/threads/the-incomparable-jesus-christ-in-the-prologue-of-john.102456/" [/QUOTE\]

I disagree that John 17:3 says Jesus Christ is the only wise God, because here at John 17:3 Jesus is praying to the only True God when he says, "This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only True God, and the one whom you sent."
There's in 1 Timothy 1:17 that says Jesus Christ is the only wise God.

Nothing that John says in John chapter 1 is he saying Jesus Christ is the Almighty God or that Jesus Christ is coequal with the Father.
The apostle John says at John 20:31 that the things he had written down in his gospel were written for people to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not God.

Also we have John 20:17 were Jesus Christ himself says after he had been resurrected, that he has a Father and God that is his apostles and disciples Father and God. So Jesus Christ didn't say he was his apostles and disciples Father and God.

 

[JLB]

Do you read English?

1 Timothy 3:16 says God was manifested in the flesh.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16


Do you believe this?

 

[SolaScriptura]

1 Timothy 3:16 says God was manifested in the flesh.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16


Do you believe this?

Reread #121

 

[JLB]

............................................

1 Tim. 3:16 (“God was manifest in the flesh”)

As this is translated in the KJV it makes Paul say that Jesus is God “manifest in the flesh.”

Although the KJV translates 1 Tim. 3:16 with “God” as above, nearly all other translations today use a word which refers, not to God, but to Jesus: “he” (NIV; RSV; NRSV; JB; NJB; REB; NAB [‘70]; AT; GNB; CBW; and Beck’s translation), “he who” (ASV; NASB; NEB; MLB; BBE; Phillips; and Moffatt), “who,” or “which.” Even the equally old Douay version has “which was manifested in the flesh.” All the very best modern NT texts by trinitarian scholars (including Westcott and Hort, Nestle, and the text by the United Bible Societies) have the NT Greek word ὃς (“who”) here instead of θεὸς (“God”). Why do the very best trinitarian scholars support this NON-trinitarian translation of 1 Tim. 3:16?[7]

Noted Bible scholar Dr. Frederick C. Grant writes:

“A capital example [of NT manuscript changes] is found in 1 Timothy 3:16, where ‘OS’ (OC or ὃς, ‘who’) was later taken for theta sigma with a bar above, which stood for theos (θεὸς, ‘god’). Since the new reading suited …. the orthodox doctrine of the church [trinitarian, at this later date], it got into many of the later manuscripts ….” – p. 656, Encyclopedia Americana, vol. 3, 1957 ed. (This same statement by Dr. Grant was still to be found in the latest Encyclopedia Americana that I examined – the 1990 ed., pp. 696-698, vol. 3.)

A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament by the United Bible Societies (1971 ed.) tells why the trinitarian UBS Committee chose ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] as the original reading in their NT text for this verse:

“it is supported by the earliest and best uncials.” And, “Thus, no uncial (in the first hand [by the ORIGINAL writer of that manuscript]) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports θεὸς [“God”]; all ancient versions presuppose ὃς [or OC, “who” - masc.] or ὅ [“which” - neut.]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century [ca. 370 A.D.] testifies to the reading θεὸς. The reading θεὸς arose either (a) accidentally, through the misreading of OC as ΘC, or (b) deliberately....” - p. 641.

In actuality it appears to be a combination of both (with the emphasis on the latter). You see, the word ὃς was written in the most ancient manuscripts as OC (“C” being a common form for the ancient Greek letter “S” at that time). Most often at this time the word for God (θεὸς) was written in abbreviated form as ΘC. However, to show that it was an abbreviated form, a straight line, or bar, was always drawn above ΘC. So no copyist should have mistaken ὃς (or OC) for ΘC, in spite of their similarities, simply because of the prominent bar which appeared over the one and not over the other.

What may have happened was discovered by John J. Wetstein in 1714. As he was carefully examining one of the oldest NT manuscripts then known (the Alexandrine Manuscript in London) he noticed at 1 Tim. 3:16 that the word originally written there was OC but that a horizontal stroke from one of the words written on the other side of the manuscript showed through very faintly in the middle of the O. This still would not qualify as an abbreviation for θεὸς, of course, but Wetstein discovered that some person at a much later date and in a different style from the original writer had deliberately added a bar above the original word! Anyone copying from this manuscript after it had been deliberately changed would be likely to incorporate the counterfeit ΘC [with bar above it] into his new copy (especially since it reflected his own trinitarian views)!

Of course, since Wetstein’s day many more ancient NT manuscripts have been discovered and none of them before the eighth century A.D. have been found with ΘC (“God”) at this verse!

Trinitarian scholar Murray J. Harris also concludes:

“The strength of the external evidence favoring OC [‘who’], along with considerations of transcriptional and intrinsic probability, have prompted textual critics virtually unanimously to regard OC as the original text, a judgment reflected in NA(26) [Nestle-Aland text] and UBS (1,2,3) [United Bible Societies text] (with a ‘B’ rating) [also the Westcott & Hort text]. Accordingly, 1 Tim 3:16 is not an instance of the Christological [‘Jesus is God’] use of θεὸς.” - Jesus as God, p. 268, Baker Book House, 1992.

And very trinitarian (Southern Baptist) NT Greek scholar A. T. Robertson wrote about this scripture:

“He who (hos [or OC in the original text]). The correct text, not theos (God) the reading of the Textus Receptus ... nor ho (neuter relative [pronoun]), agreeing with [the neuter] musterion [‘mystery’] the reading of Western documents.” - p. 577, Vol. 4, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press.

And even hyper-trinitarian NT Greek scholar, Daniel B. Wallace uses the relative pronoun ὃς (‘who’) in this scripture and tells us:

“The textual variant θεὸς [‘god’] in the place of ὃς [‘who’ or ‘he who’] has been adamantly defended by some scholars, particularly those of the ‘majority text’ school. Not only is such a reading poorly attested [8], but the syntactical argument that ‘mystery’ (μυστήριον) being a neuter noun, cannot be followed by the masculine pronoun (ὃς) is entirely without weight. As attractive theologically [for trinitarians, of course] as the reading θεὸς may be, it is spurious. To reject it is not to deny the deity of Christ, of course; it is just to deny any explicit reference in this text.” [italicized emphasis is by Wallace]. - pp. 341-342, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Zondervan, 1996.

The correct rendering of 1 Tim. 3:16, then, is: “He who was revealed in the flesh ….” - NASB. Cf. ASV; RSV; NRSV; NAB; JB; NJB; NIV; NEB; REB; ESV; Douay-Rheims; TEV; CEV; BBE; NLV; God’s Word; New Century Version; Holman NT; ISV NT; Lexham English Bible; The Message; Weymouth; Moffatt; etc.

Even if we were to insist that those later manuscripts that used theos were, somehow, correct, we would have to recognize that it is the anarthrous (without the definite article) nominative case theos which we find. This is rarely, if ever, the form used for the only true God (when the known exceptions are taken into account - see MARTIN study). Instead, it either points to the probability that it is a corrupted OC (which of course would not have the article in the first place), or, less probable, but still possible, that Christ is being called “a god” - see the BOWGOD and DEF studies.

All just man made opinion. I choose scripture, and the whole counsel of God everytime, over man, and man's opinion.


First we see John write -

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, (G2316 Theos) and the Word was God. (G2316 Theos)
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14

We see from this passage that God the Word (The Son) became flesh.


Now The Apostle Paul speaks the same thing about God becoming manifested flesh -


These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, (G2316 Theos) which is the church of the living God, (G2316 Theos) the pillar and ground of the truth. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God (G2316 Theos) was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16

All using the same Greek word Theos.

If you choose to deny what the scriptures say then that is on you.

If you believe the KJV and NKJV is corrupt then why even discuss scripture, since in your mind you have brought doubt into the minds of Christians as to whether the bible is true.

Here is the statement of faith for this site:

Doctrinal Statement

We believe that the Bible is inspired by God in its entirety, and is without error in the original autographs, a complete and final written revelation from God.


Sowing doubt and unbelief about the scriptures into the minds of Christians is the work of Satan.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Reread #121

Here is what you wrote from post #121 -

Paul who was Greek, and wrote with the Holy Spirit as his Guide, could NEVER have written in the Greek

"μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον Oς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί"

This is IMPOSSIBLE Greek grammar in this construction!

The antecedent in this is "μυστήριον", which is NEUTER in gender. To be grammatically correct, Paul would have then written "ὃ", the neuter relative, which would agree with "μυστήριον". "Mystery WHICH was manifested", as read in the LATIN for this!

With the reading "θεὸς", even though is MASCULINE, has agreement with the neuter "μυστήριον", as it is GOD Who was manifested in the flesh!

Even those, like Dr Charles Ellicott, the chair of the 1881 RV committee, who supported the change from "θεὸς" to "ὃς", have admitted that there is a DIFFICULTY in the Greek grammar! This is NOT what the Holy Spirit Writes!


It means nothing to me. One mans opinion about what could have or should been means zero to me.



I simply read the scriptures and apply them to my life.


The New Testament reveals that Jesus Christ is LORD; YHWH the LORD God.


He is the only begotten of the Father, therefore He is God, just as the Father is God.

Man begets man.

Animal begets animal after it's own kind.

God begets God.


Simple.


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16



In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14

• the Word was God.
• the Word became flesh
• God was manifested in the flesh

If anyone chooses to deny or pervert this truth then they can answer to The LORD.







JLB

 

[SolaScriptura]

Here is what you wrote from post #121 -

Paul who was Greek, and wrote with the Holy Spirit as his Guide, could NEVER have written in the Greek

"μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον Oς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί"

This is IMPOSSIBLE Greek grammar in this construction!

The antecedent in this is "μυστήριον", which is NEUTER in gender. To be grammatically correct, Paul would have then written "ὃ", the neuter relative, which would agree with "μυστήριον". "Mystery WHICH was manifested", as read in the LATIN for this!

With the reading "θεὸς", even though is MASCULINE, has agreement with the neuter "μυστήριον", as it is GOD Who was manifested in the flesh!

Even those, like Dr Charles Ellicott, the chair of the 1881 RV committee, who supported the change from "θεὸς" to "ὃς", have admitted that there is a DIFFICULTY in the Greek grammar! This is NOT what the Holy Spirit Writes!


It means nothing to me. One mans opinion about what could have or should been means zero to me.



I simply read the scriptures and apply them to my life.


The New Testament reveals that Jesus Christ is LORD; YHWH the LORD God.


He is the only begotten of the Father, therefore He is God, just as the Father is God.

Man begets man.

Animal begets animal after it's own kind.

God begets God.


Simple.


And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16



In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14

• the Word was God.
• the Word became flesh
• God was manifested in the flesh

If anyone chooses to deny or pervert this truth then they can answer to The LORD.







JLB

It is very obvious that you don't understand what I have written. What do you think this means?

With the reading "θεὸς", even though is MASCULINE, has agreement with the neuter "μυστήριον", as it is GOD Who was manifested in the flesh!

 

[JLB]

With the reading "θεὸς", even though is MASCULINE, has agreement with the neuter "μυστήριον", as it is GOD Who was manifested in the flesh!

Here is the phrase I understand, because I understand English.

...it is GOD Who was manifested in the flesh!


This agrees with scripture.


Amen

 

[Runningman]

Here is the phrase I understand, because I understand English.

...it is GOD Who was manifested in the flesh!


This agrees with scripture.


Amen

You're saying "God was manifested" in the flesh which contradicts 1 John 4:2,3 which is conclusive Jesus Christ came in the flesh, not God.

1 John 4​

2By this you will know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and which is already in the world at this time.​

God and Jesus are not the same person in the Bible.

1 Timothy 2​

5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,​

 

[SolaScriptura]

Here is the phrase I understand, because I understand English.

...it is GOD Who was manifested in the flesh!


This agrees with scripture.


Amen

I was showing in #121, that from the Greek grammar, "God was manifested in the flesh", is the ONLY possible reading from the context. The reading "who", or "he who", are impossible!

 

[JLB]

You're saying "God was manifested" in the flesh which contradicts 1 John 4:2,3 which is conclusive Jesus Christ came in the flesh, not God.

Here is what the scripture says -

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16



In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1,14

• the Word was God.
• the Word became flesh
• God was manifested in the flesh

JLB