John Chapter 5 is Against Total Depravity

[for_his_glory]

Maybe we should get a few facts on the table.

Were the disciples sinless?

If not, was their sin "of the devil?"

We can be dominant over the enemy, even while having temptations in our minds

That doesn't make us the devil or of the devil

The devil is the devil, period. And the devil sins, IN MANKIND

So, in fact by your own words you are saying then that the devil is in you as none of us are without sin in the flesh.

 

[for_his_glory]

I guess a definition should be given as to what exactly 'total depravity' is, that the opening post was addressing.

I just always considered it to mean that all men are lost and cannot save themselves. And Christ's words in (John 5:38-40) would seem to support that.

Quantrill

total depravity - man's theology/doctrine that human nature is thoroughly corrupt and sinful as a result of the Fall. a state of corruption due to original sin to infect every part of man's nature and to make the natural man unable to know or obey God.

 

[Quantrill]

No.

Total Depravity means to the Calvinist, that man is totally depraved and can not believe the Gospel unless God Sovereignly saves man first, then later he can believe when he hears the Gospel.



180 degrees backwards from scripture.





JLB

No what? A definition should not be given?

So, when we speak of 'total depravity' is it just a Calvinist doctrine? Where was that determined in this thread?

In other words, is there such a thing as total depravity outside the Calvinist doctrine? I hold to total depravity. Man cannot save himself.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

total depravity - man's theology/doctrine that human nature is thoroughly corrupt and sinful as a result of the Fall. a state of corruption due to original sin to infect every part of man's nature and to make the natural man unable to know or obey God.

Is this your definition or Calvins definition? Is it the definition the author of this post had in mind when giving the title of this thread?

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

No what? A definition should not be given?

So, when we speak of 'total depravity' is it just a Calvinist doctrine? Where was that determined in this thread?

In other words, is there such a thing as total depravity outside the Calvinist doctrine? I hold to total depravity. Man cannot save himself.

Quantrill

Ok, let’s start with the truth.


Please show me the scripture that says mankind is totally depraved.

Or, find a scripture that uses the phrase total depravity.


If you can’t then you are defending a man made term, designed to prop up a man made doctrine.




JLB

 

[jasonc]

because God first loved us..
it sure isn't because man loved God first

 

[Quantrill]

Ok, let’s start with the truth.


Please show me the scripture that says mankind is totally depraved.

Or, find a scripture that uses the phrase total depravity.


If you can’t then you are defending a man made term, designed to prop up a man made doctrine.




JLB

Here we go. I asked several questions. All of which were ignored by you. Yet you come back and ask questions of me.

Trinity is a man made term. Is that a man made doctrine? Show me the Scripture that says 'God is a Trinity'.

Let's start with you answering my questions first.

Quantrill

 

[smaller]

Not suffering at all. I just showed you (Job 38:4-7). Which you ignored. The angels were all in a sinless state when God laid the foundations of the earth. They were in a holy condition with God. But, as I said, because God is God, and He created them, He knew his elect angels, (1 Tim. 5:21), from those non-elect, who would later rebel.

Uh, no. No Holy Satan therein either

And, we are told in (Eze. 28:15) that prior to his fall, satan was perfect in the way in which God created him. (Eze. 28:14-15). In fact he was the 'highest' of God's creation. He walked upon the holy mountain of God. (28:14) He had not yet fallen. He was in a state of holiness before God. But, again, God always knew who he was.

Created as a perfect devil, yes. If you read "in all thy ways" that would be uh, perfect devil ways

The only reason to believe in the once holy angels rebelling against God is because it is said so in Scripture.

No, it's not. You've provided zero scriptural proof showing Satan was once a holy angel because it's not in the scriptures to be found.

Jesus already gave us Satan's measure in John 8:44. There is zero reason to doubt what Jesus said about the devil being a liar and a murderer from the beginning.

Your accusation that it is used by 'freewill' sects to scare people is amiss. It can't be used to scare people because, as I already told you, people come into salvation by faith. Angels are treated differently. They already believe, but it doesn't matter.

As for (Mark 4:15) and (1 John 3:8), they don't really address the angels former holiness and rebellion.

Quantrill

 

[smaller]

What does Mark 4:15 have to do with total depravity?

Because it shows Satan in the hearts/minds of mankind.

There is the totally depraved one.

 

[smaller]

The Devil doesn’t dwell in born again Spirit filled Christians.

Being tempted in mind does not equate to possession or "dwelling in"

We know Satan is a wicked unseen spirit, probably with his own particular features that are not human

Sin on the other hand does continue to dwell in our flesh even after we are saved.

And sin remains of the devil, 1 John 3:8
It's problematic to remove Satan from sin and all people remain sinners, even after salvation

People are forgiven

Devils are never forgiven

 

[smaller]

none of what you say here in any way disproves what I have shown in the OP. From John chapter 5, show that Jesus did not address the Jews who wanted to murder them, and offered them salvation.

Jesus never talks to just mankind, when addressing mankind, per His Own Statement of Mark 4:15

There are other parties involved within mankind that are not mankind.

See Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4 and Eph. 2:2 for quick references of Satan's dominion over blinded slaves

 

[Quantrill]

Uh, no. No Holy Satan therein either

Created as a perfect devil, yes. If you read "in all thy ways" that would be uh, perfect devil ways


No, it's not. You've provided zero scriptural proof showing Satan was once a holy angel because it's not in the scriptures to be found.

Jesus already gave us Satan's measure in John 8:44. There is zero reason to doubt what Jesus said about the devil being a liar and a murderer from the beginning.

Uh, yes. You do not address the Scripture I gave. All you did was grunt.

I have provided Scripture, which you did not address. (Ezekiel 28:15) (Job 38:4-7)

No one denies that satan was a liar and murderer from the beginning. (John 8:44) That is only because God knew that, as God created him. But it wouldn't be until that time when Lucifer rebelled and his angels, that others wouldn't know that. And until that time, Lucifer and his angels were in a holy state with God.

Quantrill

 

[smaller]

So whom/what else does Jesus speak to? Dogs, horses, birds..?

I answered this before and someone thought I was insulting you.

I was not

Numbers 22:28
And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

 

[smaller]

Why do you read into your own agenda of trying to cause division among the members. If you would sit back and try to understand what we are telling you, it is all about the totally depravity of Satan who enters into those who oppose Christ Jesus stealing the word away from them before it has a chance to take root. Read John chapter 8 especially vs. 44 as it is all about what we have been trying to tell you.

I've said no different

My observation to you is why do you make the slave of Satan totally depraved when Jesus came to save such captives.

And ignore the fact that it is only Satan who is totally depraved.

You see the fact that there is more than one party involved in these matters does lend credence to mankind not being totally depraved, and I cited earlier that all of Israel for example were and still are God's children, per Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, Matt 23:9 and others

God did not and does not have totally depraved children.

 

[smaller]

Uh, yes. You do not address the Scripture I gave. All you did was grunt.

I have provided Scripture, which you did not address. (Ezekiel 28:15) (Job 38:4-7)

No one denies that satan was a liar and murderer from the beginning. (John 8:44) That is only because God knew that, as God created him. But it wouldn't be until that time when Lucifer rebelled and his angels, that others wouldn't know that. And until that time, Lucifer and his angels were in a holy state with God.

Quantrill

Addressed. Satan was created a perfect devil. No grunting needed to see there is no holy Satan statement in either of those citings. And your bolded statement seems to agree, so maybe we can just leave it there

 

[smaller]

So, in fact by your own words you are saying then that the devil is in you as none of us are without sin in the flesh.

Everyone is subject to temptations of the tempter transpiring "in mind"

2 Corinthians 11:3

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2 Cor 11:
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Some believers can say it's a fact, and they tell the truth

Others, not so much

 

[Quantrill]

Addressed. Satan was created a perfect devil. No grunting needed to see there is no holy Satan statement in either of those citings. And your bolded statement seems to agree, so maybe we can just leave it there

No. satan was created perfect by God. Prior to his rebellion he and his angels were in a holy state before God. That you need to grunt instead of addressing the Scriptures I gave is understandable as they disprove your statements.

Oh no. You would like to leave it there, but we won't. My statement, that you bolded, does not agree with you at all. Though God knows who satan is, does not change satan's or Lucifer's state of holiness prior to his rebellion. Or that of the non-elect angels.

In other words, you may as well say, concerning mankind, that the elect of God, prior to their being born-again, were always in a state of righteousness. Which is ridiculous. That God knows who they are is immaterial. They are children of wrath and in a postion of alienation from God until that time they exercise that saving faith.

Quantrill

 

[smaller]

No. satan was created perfect by God. Prior to his rebellion he and his angels were in a holy state before God. That you need to grunt instead of addressing the Scriptures I gave is understandable as they disprove your statements.

Oh no. You would like to leave it there, but we won't. My statement, that you bolded, does not agree with you at all. Though God knows who satan is, does not change satan's or Lucifer's state of holiness prior to his rebellion. Or that of the non-elect angels.

In other words, you may as well say, concerning mankind, that the elect of God, prior to their being born-again, were always in a state of righteousness. Which is ridiculous. That God knows who they are is immaterial. They are children of wrath and in a postion of alienation from God until that time they exercise that saving faith.

Quantrill

Being perfect in all Satan's ways is far from holy.

The observation stands. There is not one instance of Satan being stated as holy anywhere in the scriptures.

The notions that Satan was a holy angel gone bad is entirely made up

 

[JLB]

Trinity is a man made term.

I don’t use the word Trinity, for that reason. I use Godhead, or Elohim.

 

[JLB]

Here we go. I asked several questions. All of which were ignored by you. Yet you come back and ask questions of me.

Trinity is a man made term. Is that a man made doctrine? Show me the Scripture that says 'God is a Trinity'.

Let's start with you answering my questions first.

Quantrill

I addressed your post in my post number 55.


(Answering you is not dodging.)


Then I asked you to provide a verse that used the phrase total depravity.

Here it is again —

Please show me the scripture that says mankind is totally depraved.

Or, find a scripture that uses the phrase total depravity.





JLB