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John Chapter 5 is Against Total Depravity

smaller said:
Being tempted in mind does not equate to possession or "dwelling in"
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I never said it did.


You on the other hand stated that Satan does his sinning “in us”.


False.


People are enticed to sin, being led astray by “their own desires”.


But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15



JLB
 
Quantrill said:
Trinity is a man made term. Is that a man made doctrine? Show me the Scripture that says 'God is a Trinity'.
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The Bible from verse one in the Book of Genesis, is very clear that "God" is not One "Person". The Hebrew "Elohim", is in the masculine gender, and plural in number, "el" being the singular. In Genesis 1:26, we read, "Let US make humans in OUR Image and after OUR likeness". In both the Old and New Testaments, there are Three Who are equally called Yahweh/God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In Isaiah 48:16, the Speaker is Yahweh, Who is the Creator, He here speaks of being sent by Another, Who is "Yahweh Adoni", Who also also sends the Holy Spirit.

The term Holy Trinity is used to describe how the God of the Holy Bible can be One, and at the same time, Three Persons, as in 1x1x1, which is 1; not 1+1+1, which is 3! There is not other way to understand this Mystery. Just because "Trinity" is not used in the Bible, does not mean that it is man-made and not Biblical. The term Incarnation is not in the Bible, but yet is is clear that it is very much taught in the Bible. As are the terms Theophany and Christophany, both not in the Bible, but teach what is in the Bible!
 
smaller said:
Being perfect in all Satan's ways is far from holy.

The observation stands. There is not one instance of Satan being stated as holy anywhere in the scriptures.

The notions that Satan was a holy angel gone bad is entirely made up
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Only in your mind does your observation stand. It doesn't stand up to Scripture. (Job 38:4-7) and (Ezekiel 28:15) are clear. There was a time when satan and his angels were in harmony and in good standing with God as all other angels were.

Lucifer was the highest angel. He was the 'anointed cherub that covereth'. He was the holiest of all the angels. (Ezekiel 28:14) When Scriputue says "till iniquity was found in thee", (28:15), that indicates there was a time when Lucifer was holy and a time when he fell. (Ezekiel 28:17) is clear that the fall of satan was due to his heart being lifted up. Pride.(Isaiah 14:12-15) enlarges upon that. "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer...."

The only thing made up are your statements. For what reason i don't know. I'm sure that for some reason this belief of yours concerning satan and his angels is necessary to support some other doctrine you have. And because you err with satan and his angels, then whatever doctrine it is supposed to support is going to be equally in error. My opinion.

The fall of satan is not my opinion. It is Scriptural.

Quantrill
 
JLB said:
I never said it did.


You on the other hand stated that Satan does his sinning “in us”.


False.


People are enticed to sin, being led astray by “their own desires”.


But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. James 1:14-15



JLB
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IF sin is of the devil, (it is) then the mere presence of temptation by the tempter, in mind, should be enough of a convincer, even without any other actions

Evil thoughts remain defiling, just as Jesus said:

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Matt. 5:28

That presence, of temptation, of the tempter, is the total depravity, for whatever meals are being spoon fed the victims

Most people don't know the difference between their own thoughts and those of the tempter in any case

Unfortunate
 
SolaScriptura said:
The Bible from verse one in the Book of Genesis, is very clear that "God" is not One "Person". The Hebrew "Elohim", is in the masculine gender, and plural in number, "el" being the singular. In Genesis 1:26, we read, "Let US make humans in OUR Image and after OUR likeness". In both the Old and New Testaments, there are Three Who are equally called Yahweh/God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In Isaiah 48:16, the Speaker is Yahweh, Who is the Creator, He here speaks of being sent by Another, Who is "Yahweh Adoni", Who also also sends the Holy Spirit.

The term Holy Trinity is used to describe how the God of the Holy Bible can be One, and at the same time, Three Persons, as in 1x1x1, which is 1; not 1+1+1, which is 3! There is not other way to understand this Mystery. Just because "Trinity" is not used in the Bible, does not mean that it is man-made and not Biblical. The term Incarnation is not in the Bible, but yet is is clear that it is very much taught in the Bible. As are the terms Theophany and Christophany, both not in the Bible, but teach what is in the Bible!
Click to expand...

You miss the point entirely. I wasn't asking JLB to prove the Trinity. If you're going to enter into something I said to another, at least stay in the context of what I was saying.

Quantrill
 
Quantrill said:
Only in your mind does your observation stand. It doesn't stand up to Scripture. (Job 38:4-7) and (Ezekiel 28:15) are clear. There was a time when satan and his angels were in harmony and in good standing with God as all other angels were.

Lucifer was the highest angel. He was the 'anointed cherub that covereth'. He was the holiest of all the angels. (Ezekiel 28:14) When Scriputue says "till iniquity was found in thee", (28:15), that indicates there was a time when Lucifer was holy and a time when he fell. (Ezekiel 28:17) is clear that the fall of satan was due to his heart being lifted up. Pride.(Isaiah 14:12-15) enlarges upon that. "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer...."

The only thing made up are your statements. For what reason i don't know. I'm sure that for some reason this belief of yours concerning satan and his angels is necessary to support some other doctrine you have. And because you err with satan and his angels, then whatever doctrine it is supposed to support is going to be equally in error. My opinion.

The fall of satan is not my opinion. It is Scriptural.

Quantrill
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Well, I guess we'll just have to agree that you see Satan stated as being at one time, Holy, even though it actually does not exist in print

I might question the source of such views and we'll leave it at that
 
smaller said:
Well, I guess we'll just have to agree that you see Satan stated as being at one time, Holy, even though it actually does not exist in print

I might question the source of such views and we'll leave it at that
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I gave you the source. The Bible. And that is what you are questioning.

Quantrill
 
JLB said:
I addressed your post in my post number 55.


(Answering you is not dodging.)


Then I asked you to provide a verse that used the phrase total depravity.

Here it is again —

Please show me the scripture that says mankind is totally depraved.

Or, find a scripture that uses the phrase total depravity.





JLB
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My questions were in post #(63).

Quantrill
 
smaller said:
IF sin is of the devil, (it is) then the mere presence of temptation by the tempter, in mind, should be enough of a convincer, even without any other actions

Evil thoughts remain defiling, just as Jesus said:
Click to expand...


Your statement that the devil does his sinning within us, is what I addressed.

Not evil thoughts.



JLB
 
JLB said:
Your statement that the devil does his sinning within us, is what I addressed.

Not evil thoughts.



JLB
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We'd maybe both agree that Satan is a sinner, and that the presence of temptation in mind via the tempter, does the math sufficiently

We also know that theft of Word is a sin, even if we don't see it happening or catch Satan in the act, Mark 4:15

The presence of the tempter internally also addresses entirely, sufficiently, the source of total depravity, without having to drag the captives into that picture

Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 etc etc
 
Quantrill said:
See post #(63).

Quantrill
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Here is your question from #63

No what?
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No, total depravity doesn’t mean man can’t save himself.

We all know man can’t save himself.

Again here is my answer in post 55 —


Total Depravity means to the Calvinist, that man is totally depraved and can not believe the Gospel unless God Sovereignly saves man first, then later he can believe when he hears the Gospel.


Do you believe God Sovereignly saves a person apart from them hearing and believing the Gospel?




JLB
 
smaller said:
We'd maybe both agree that Satan is a sinner,
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People are sinners.

People that have a lifestyle of sinning are sinners.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20

  • let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death


It’s the people themselves that are sinners that need to be turned back to God.





JLB
 
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smaller said:
Yeah, there's what's written, and then there's what's not written, but people think it is written, current observation in point
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I gave you what was written.


(Job 38:4-7) "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?.....When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

(Isaiah 14:12) "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer...."

(Ezekiel 28:14) "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God...."

(Ezekiel 28:15) "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou was created till iniquity was found in thee."

There was a time when satan and his angels were unfallen and holy angels.

Quantrill
 
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JLB said:
Here is your question from #63




No, total depravity doesn’t mean man can’t save himself.

We all know man can’t save himself.

Again here is my answer in post 55 —


Total Depravity means to the Calvinist, that man is totally depraved and can not believe the Gospel unless God Sovereignly saves man first, then later he can believe when he hears the Gospel.


Do you believe God Sovereignly saves a person apart from them hearing and believing the Gospel?




JLB
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There are other questions in post (63) that need to be answered to clarify.

Quantrill
 
Quantrill said:
There are other questions in post (63) that need to be answered to clarify.

Quantrill
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I answered your question, now you can answer mine.

Then when you have answered mine, you can ask another.



Where does the Bible use the term total depravity? What chapter and verse?




JLB
 
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