John MacArthur: Continualists do not exist, everyone is a Cessationist or Inventionist

[Iconoclast]

Alfred Persson many of us have been through this with you many times and even giving our testimonies of the Spiritual gifts that each of us have been given. Sir, you are in a Christian forum that believes in Spiritual gifts and have practiced and seen these gifts work through the Holy Spirit. It wasn't the Apostles that had these gifts and died with them, but the Holy Spirit that worked these Spiritual gifts through them as well as everyone today that have sought after them. The only ones that are going to believe in these false teachings are those who have been blinded to truth as they would rather believe man's doctrines instead of the doctrines of Christ Jesus in what He has already taught.

I encourage you to start studying the Bible for what has already been written as you will be held accountable to God for preaching another doctrine.

12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

You do not have or practice any signs of the apostles. Revelatory gifts have ceased. Normal spiritual gifts do occur.

 

[hawkman]

12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

You do not have or practice any signs of the apostles. Revelatory gifts have ceased. Normal spiritual gifts do occur.

Do you think either dreaming of future events that come to pass or visions would be a revelatory gift(s) ?

 

[for_his_glory]

12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

You do not have or practice any signs of the apostles. Revelatory gifts have ceased. Normal spiritual gifts do occur.

I gave what Cessationalist believe. If the gifts have ceased then the Holy Spirit would have ceased after all the Apostles died and we do not see that. It's sad to think so many do not believe the Holy Spirit and the Spiritual gifts are not for today.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

l

12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

You do not have or practice any signs of the apostles. Revelatory gifts have ceased. Normal spiritual gifts do occur.

Apostles were and are not performers. That’s not the mark
of an apostle. That’s probably one error, thinking they were performers. Jesus said miracles would follow those who believe, not just the apostles.

 

[Iconoclast]

I gave what Cessationalist believe.

Hello FHG, Yes i did see you put out a brief sketch of the position, which can be helpful.

If the gifts have ceased

Revelatory gifts have ceased having done what they were intended to do

then the Holy Spirit would have ceased

This does not follow at all. Their are spiritual gifts that are for believers today. The Spirit works these gifts and graces into the lives of God's people , particularly in the gathered local church.
Rom.12
6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;

11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;

12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.

16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.

18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

after all the Apostles died and we do not see that.

We see the signs of the Apostles, having done what they were intended to do.

It's sad to think so many do not believe the Holy Spirit and the Spiritual gifts are not for today.

The Holy Spirit still does what He was intended to do. No need for you to go off the deep end.
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit, We are led to mortify sin by the Holy Spirit, We understand the word of God written by the Spirit allowing truth to come our way. 1cor2;
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The Apostles were totally unique, the signs credentialed them as bring new revelation and writing it for us.
Now the Spirit quickens what we need to know from the complete rule of faith in scripture, not outside of them.

 

[jasonc]

These are nothing more than the views and opinions of John MacArthur and comes against what the Apostles have taught.

Cessationism is a doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. The doctrine was developed in the reformation and is particularly associated with the Calvinists.

The doctrine of cessationism has evolved into various forms since its initial formulation. One disagreement between cessationists is the point when the gifts ceased—either with the deaths of the apostles, or gradually over the first few centuries. If the gifts are only imparted through the laying on of hands by the apostles, as Warfield argues, then the gifts necessarily ended with the death of the last apostle. One writer categorises such a priori beliefs as principled cessationism, but recognises that an a posteriori, or empirical, cessationism is also possible. Empirical cessationism asserts that the gifts were lost through the church's supposed deviation from sound doctrine, and not because they must necessarily have ended. The author quotes a study published by cessationists Brian and Scott McPherson to illustrate the empirical cessationist position.

Although the original formulation of cessationism arose in response to claims of healing and miracles in the Catholic Church, cessationists now divide into four viewpoints based on their views about the possibility of miracles among Christians today. These are:

Full cessationists believe that all miracles have ceased, along with any miraculous gifts.
Classical cessationists assert that the miraculous gifts such as prophecy, healing, and speaking in tongues ceased with the apostles. However, they do believe that God occasionally works in supernatural ways today.
Consistent cessationists believe that not only were the miraculous gifts only for the establishment of the first-century church, but the need for apostles and prophets also ceased.
Concentric cessationists believe that the miraculous gifts have indeed ceased in the mainstream church and evangelized areas, but may appear in unreached areas as an aid to spreading the Gospel. Daniel B. Wallace describes himself as a concentric cessationist and describes the other cessationist viewpoints as "linear".

He has a point,if there is the office of a prophet then where are the modern apostles ?
If you notice the so called ones are heretics .

Most pentacostals I know don't teach modern day apostles .

 

[Hopeful]

He has a point,if there is the office of a prophet then where are the modern apostles ?
If you notice the so called ones are heretics .

Most pentacostals I know don't teach modern day apostles .

They are out here.

 

[for_his_glory]

He has a point,if there is the office of a prophet then where are the modern apostles ?
If you notice the so called ones are heretics .

Most pentacostals I know don't teach modern day apostles .

1Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cor 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Cor 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

I understand these gifts were first given to the Apostles, but after they all died, they still continue today as it's all through the Holy Spirit that disperses them to those who God uses within His ministry.

The word Apostle is the Greek word "apostolos" is the same as messenger, disciple or a follower of Christ that have been called by God for the purpose of His continued ministry here on earth in whom His Holy Spirit works through. We certainly see this in Paul not being a part of the twelve that Jesus called to follow Him.

 

[jasonc]

Do you think either dreaming of future events that come to pass or visions would be a revelatory gift(s) ?

I was in sin and had those .

Often what is so called that is not actually close to what God does .

1Cor 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Cor 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Cor 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Cor 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

I understand these gifts were first given to the Apostles, but after they all died, they still continue today as it's all through the Holy Spirit that disperses them to those who God uses within His ministry.

The word Apostle is the Greek word "apostolos" is the same as messenger, disciple or a follower of Christ that have been called by God for the purpose of His continued ministry here on earth in whom His Holy Spirit works through. We certainly see this in Paul not being a part of the twelve that Jesus called to follow Him.

That doesn't adress that problem

Modern day .

The apostles established doctrine ,they wrote epistles and books in the bible .

Modern day doesn't do that or even if it does have any unity to add .

 

[for_his_glory]

This does not follow at all. Their are spiritual gifts that are for believers today. The Spirit works these gifts and graces into the lives of God's people , particularly in the gathered local church.

All Spiritual gifts are the same today as they were when given to the Apostles, including those like Paul that was not part of the twelve and to many of us today until the return of Christ.

The Holy Spirit still does what He was intended to do. No need for you to go off the deep end.

Not going off any deep end so please do not insinuate that I am. I am only sharing my understanding like everyone else.

 

[for_his_glory]

I was in sin and had those .

Often what is so called that is not actually close to what God does .
That doesn't adress that problem

Modern day .

The apostles established doctrine ,they wrote epistles and books in the bible .

Modern day doesn't do that or even if it does have any unity to add .

It was Jesus that established His doctrines/teachings and had the Apostles to write them and teach from them. Modern day does not dictate over that which was already written that we read in the Bible.

 

[jasonc]

It was Jesus that established His doctrines/teachings and had the Apostles to write them and teach from them. Modern day does not dictate over that which was already written that we read in the Bible.

Jesus was in heaven

Did he tell the gentiles to only obey three things

Abstain from idols,meat offered to them and also blood.

That was the apostles in their council.
Jesus didn't set the book order or content .that's the Holy Spirit.

If the modern day apostles don't ,then they are just pastors.

That's McArthur's point .

The nar adds out there ideas to the bible

 

[hawkman]

Do you think either dreaming of future events that come to pass or visions would be a revelatory gift(s) ?

I was in sin and had those .

So you now understand the Holy Spirit can give a sinner a glimpse of the future ? Or are you saying your glimpse of the future was from the other side ?

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus was in heaven

Did he tell the gentiles to only obey three things

Abstain from idols,meat offered to them and also blood.

That was the apostles in their council.
Jesus didn't set the book order or content .that's the Holy Spirit.

If the modern day apostles don't ,then they are just pastors.

That's McArthur's point .

The nar adds out there ideas to the bible

Jesus spoke it/taught it, the disciples were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write His teachings down as letters to the churches and to teach others just like we continue in those teachings today as we teach the same things to help others learn truth. The gifts of the Holy Spirit will never cease.

 

[jasonc]

So you now understand the Holy Spirit can give a sinner a glimpse of the future ? Or are you saying your glimpse of the future was from the other side ?

Ever heard of the often concept of the prophets being former occultist ?


These as I know a few could also ,guess correctly lotto numbers ,who was going to die .

I would say three that have said that .

My abilities to see ghosts ,and or sense death and or threats was not really something you kinda meant .

I have watched movies ,sensed a threat and it approaches .veterans speak of that .we had things we avoided because we knew it might invite an attack .don't fire the tank for training .don't go there .no reason other then when we did ,am attack
The tank was aimed at no one place but the side of a mountain.they knew only attacked when we fired it.we had arty and they didn't do that with that emplaced and we also did missions .

So if it was to prevent our abilities to be threat why just the tank only when it fires ? Not also when we would man the arty pieces .

My point here is modern day prophets are just as you think .I don't know what to make of that . Many of my photos are in fact of haunted places .

Florida theatre,diesel plant ,

 

[jasonc]

Jesus spoke it/taught it, the disciples were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write His teachings down as letters to the churches and to teach others just like we continue in those teachings today as we teach the same things to help others learn truth. The gifts of the Holy Spirit will never cease.

He told the church how to change the shabat?

That gentiles which he didn't really say much to aside they were in a vision to Peter and also to be preached to and not unclean .

He didn't tell the Jewish believers specifically to stop being kosher .

That would have nullified any acts 15 council on it as they would have known


By your own admission.thr modern office the apostles are not on par with paul or Peter .

They did more then miracles .the calling to disciple and to baptize was never just for the apostles but they had to as well.

Honestly when you read acts 2 it's tounges of men and the men there who didn't speak Hebrew or Greek all understood someone who did .

Most pentacostals services with interpreteation don't have that .

It's plainly said to the English or Spanish church in their languages of what God wants which is more of a prophetic utterance then anything .

I'm not anti pentacostal just pointing out yes we are all to a degree cessationist

 

[Iconoclast]

All Spiritual gifts are the same today

No .There are no Apostles and prophets today.

as they were when given to the Apostles,

No, they were given to the people in the churches as they confirmed the Apostles as GOD'S SPOKESMEN.

including those like Paul that was not part of the twelve

The Apostles validated him; 2Pet.3
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

and to many of us today until the return of Christ.

no one today, not one.

Not going off any deep end so please do not insinuate that I am.

You said it meant that the Holy Spirit must have ceased? Sounds like the deep end.

I am only sharing my understanding like everyone else.

Certainly you can do that. And we can accept or reject such ideas.

 

[hawkman]

Revelatory gifts have ceased. Normal spiritual gifts do occur.

Which prompted me ask a question as seen below .

Do you think either dreaming of future events that come to pass or visions would be a revelatory gift(s) ?

I believe these two would qualify under Word of Knowledge . I never really thought about it in that way until today .
When you did not answer Iconoclast I started searching around and found this . https://heraldsofrevival.org/2019/12/09/the-gifts-of-revelation/

"Although believers don’t possess a supernatural or perfect knowledge about everything in life, however, through the gift of word of knowledge, they can manifest a fraction of such a supernatural knowledge at a particular time.
The word of knowledge is a specific supernatural revelation, insight, or knowledge of facts and information that is given directly to you by the Holy Spirit; and not by your own mind, intelligence, education, observation, research, study or experience.
The word of knowledge is a supernatural understanding of a circumstance, situation, or problem solely by divine aid.
When this gift is in operation, the Holy Spirit transmits to your spirit a specific knowledge about someone or something that you have no natural means of knowing about at that particular time.
The spontaneous divine transmission of a specific word of knowledge you need in a specific situation can come to you as an intuition, impression, inner voice, a mental picture, or come to you in a dream, vision or trance.
Whichever way it comes, this gift is always revelatory or informative in nature – it reveals to you specific information in a supernatural way."

I would say God has blessed me the Gift of word of knowledge .

 

[for_his_glory]

He told the church how to change the shabat?

That gentiles which he didn't really say much to aside they were in a vision to Peter and also to be preached to and not unclean .

He didn't tell the Jewish believers specifically to stop being kosher .

That would have nullified any acts 15 council on it as they would have known


By your own admission.thr modern office the apostles are not on par with paul or Peter .

They did more then miracles .the calling to disciple and to baptize was never just for the apostles but they had to as well.

Honestly when you read acts 2 it's tounges of men and the men there who didn't speak Hebrew or Greek all understood someone who did .

Most pentacostals services with interpreteation don't have that .

It's plainly said to the English or Spanish church in their languages of what God wants which is more of a prophetic utterance then anything .

I'm not anti pentacostal just pointing out yes we are all to a degree cessationist

I believe you are reading into what I have said and I am not Pentecostal nor affiliated with any church at this time.

The OP is about gifts and I have pretty much given my understanding that they are as much alive as when they were first given to the Disciples.

 

[for_his_glory]

No .There are no Apostles and prophets today.




No, they were given to the people in the churches as they confirmed the Apostles as GOD'S SPOKESMEN.

The Apostles validated him; 2Pet.3
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.



no one today, not one.

You said it meant that the Holy Spirit must have ceased? Sounds like the deep end.



Certainly you can do that. And we can accept or reject such ideas.

And you have a good evening as I am no longer going to go round and around as I have given what I believe. If you think the gifts have ceased then so be it as I know they haven't.