John MacArthur: Continualists do not exist, everyone is a Cessationist or Inventionist

[Alfred Persson]

Their experience is extremely limited and they judge solely on their personal experience. I’ve known people who were given the gift of normal understandable languages including sign language.

But by all means solve the problem of unbelief by inventing a new word. Why be different than the world? That’s what they’ve learned to do.

Truth in advertising. Can't point to gifts that aren't in the New Testament, and claim they are a "continuation" of the gifts in the New Testament.

The apostles didn't speak "fallible prophecy", Continualists do. The tongues on the Day of Pentecost were languages. The tongues Continualists speak are not. The "apostles" in Continualist churches are not equal to the 12 in the NT, therefore their ministry is not a continuation of the apostleship.

 

[jasonc]

I believe you are reading into what I have said and I am not Pentecostal nor affiliated with any church at this time.

The OP is about gifts and I have pretty much given my understanding that they are as much alive as when they were first given to the Disciples.

That's a pentacostal .

And no just because you or I think of it doesn't mean it's a new idea as well this debate or any here isnt new it's been argued before the time of Islam .the Eastearn and western Roman split


My point is that name one modern prophet that has done what Moses ,Daniel and John , Ezekiel did.

That's there argument .

 

[jasonc]

I don't know why some posters here can't see that God as far as all that is to come that needs to be said .has been said and doesn't use prophets for that .

We have end time prophets .sure we should look but that stuff can be out there


88 reasons to believe Jesus will come in 1988 .

The sda movement,it's splinters of the jw and russellites,the nar movement .

The biggest problem I have is that pentacostals will be weak on the rudimentary nature of God and just because a Oneness guy speaks in tounges and prophecies what sounds believable they will think he is one of them that believe when they deny the Trinity and Jesus being the Son .

 

[Alfred Persson]

These are nothing more than the views and opinions of John MacArthur and comes against what the Apostles have taught.

Cessationism is a doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. The doctrine was developed in the reformation and is particularly associated with the Calvinists.

The doctrine of cessationism has evolved into various forms since its initial formulation. One disagreement between cessationists is the point when the gifts ceased—either with the deaths of the apostles, or gradually over the first few centuries. If the gifts are only imparted through the laying on of hands by the apostles, as Warfield argues, then the gifts necessarily ended with the death of the last apostle. One writer categorises such a priori beliefs as principled cessationism, but recognises that an a posteriori, or empirical, cessationism is also possible. Empirical cessationism asserts that the gifts were lost through the church's supposed deviation from sound doctrine, and not because they must necessarily have ended. The author quotes a study published by cessationists Brian and Scott McPherson to illustrate the empirical cessationist position.

Although the original formulation of cessationism arose in response to claims of healing and miracles in the Catholic Church, cessationists now divide into four viewpoints based on their views about the possibility of miracles among Christians today. These are:

Full cessationists believe that all miracles have ceased, along with any miraculous gifts.
Classical cessationists assert that the miraculous gifts such as prophecy, healing, and speaking in tongues ceased with the apostles. However, they do believe that God occasionally works in supernatural ways today.
Consistent cessationists believe that not only were the miraculous gifts only for the establishment of the first-century church, but the need for apostles and prophets also ceased.
Concentric cessationists believe that the miraculous gifts have indeed ceased in the mainstream church and evangelized areas, but may appear in unreached areas as an aid to spreading the Gospel. Daniel B. Wallace describes himself as a concentric cessationist and describes the other cessationist viewpoints as "linear".

Thanks, that was interesting. Didn't realize there were four varieties of cessationism.

I don't fit any of the four categories fully. While I believe "tongues prophecy and knowledge" (1 Cor. 13:8), and the office of the 12 apostles has ceased, God works miracles every day when someone is Born again. Healing also happens. But I don't believe "healers" are still around, they were connected to the 12 in the NT.

But Scripture says the Holy Spirit will be poured out in the End Time, therefore my "cessationism" ends when we are in the last 7 years discussed in the book of Revelation. Peter said Pentecost was what Joel predicted. But we see from the text, so is what happens in the End Time when the signs and wonders in heaven earth appear:

16 "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 `And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.' (Acts 2:16-21 NKJ)

So, I'm a cessationist with a terminus, or temporary cessationist. Perhaps I need a new name for it too?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson many of us have been through this with you many times and even giving our testimonies of the Spiritual gifts that each of us have been given. Sir, you are in a Christian forum that believes in Spiritual gifts and have practiced and seen these gifts work through the Holy Spirit. It wasn't the Apostles that had these gifts and died with them, but the Holy Spirit that worked these Spiritual gifts through them as well as everyone today that have sought after them. The only ones that are going to believe in these false teachings are those who have been blinded to truth as they would rather believe man's doctrines instead of the doctrines of Christ Jesus in what He has already taught.

I encourage you to start studying the Bible for what has already been written as you will be held accountable to God for preaching another doctrine.

I don't judge anyone. I present the facts of scripture and leave it to readers whether they agree not.

Former Charismatics tell me the gifts they once thought were from the Holy Spirit were actually "self-generated." They weren't from demons. I see no reason to dispute their testimony.

I am NOT an arbiter of Christian experience. I don't dispute anyone's claim their gifts are from God.

I do not believe they are a "continuation" of what existed in the New Testament because modern gifts are "different."

I present the Cessationist position, showing scriptures we base that on.

Its not false teaching, its a different opinion than yours.

I welcome discussion and debate on the issue, using scripture alone.

If anyone says "Thus saith the LORD, I am a true prophet". Or: "My gifts are real, I say so!"

I won't believe, I only believe scripture:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-4:1 NKJ)

 

[Deidr]

Does one have to be a believer to have the gift of tongues?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

He has a point,if there is the office of a prophet then where are the modern apostles ?

They are on the earth but are not the self proclaimed ones. Jesus has to personally call a man to be an apostle.

If you notice the so called ones are heretics .

They are for sure, mostly promoting themselves, something the real ones don’t do.

Most pentacostals I know don't teach modern day apostles .

They wouldn’t know one if they saw one and same for prophets. Very little discernment.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't judge anyone. I present the facts of scripture and leave it to readers whether they agree not.

Actually you merely present your view of scripture. This inability to see that distinction make discussion fruitless.

Former Charismatics tell me the gifts they once thought were from the Holy Spirit were actually "self-generated." They weren't from demons. I see no reason to dispute their testimony.

I agree, but of course that is evidence from real life not scripture.

I am NOT an arbiter of Christian experience. I don't dispute anyone's claim their gifts are from God.

Ah, but if they say it was fake you believe it as evidence of being right. If they say they have a gift, that’s not evidence of being wrong though.

I do not believe they are a "continuation" of what existed in the New Testament because modern gifts are "different."

How so? How is healing different today?

I present the Cessationist position, showing scriptures we base that on.

Its not false teaching, its a different opinion than yours.

Both sides based on scripture you know

I welcome discussion and debate on the issue, using scripture alone.

Then you need to not use the experience of others faking it. That’s not scripture. There is no scripture that says the gifts of God are limited by to the first century, yet you believe it.

If anyone says "Thus saith the LORD, I am a true prophet". Or: "My gifts are real, I say so!"

I won't believe, I only believe scripture:

Ah, you are unaware of the scriptural test for such.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-4:1 NKJ)

Where is “spiritual gifts ended when John, the last original apostle, died in that?

 

[Deidr]

Love must govern the use of all the gifts of the Spirit.

edification for church is to help someone to grow

love seeks not it's own

 

[jeremiah1five]

From Frame 5:15

The Pastor says:

"I think the argument is when you read the chapter and you see how unique the apostles were and when they passed away what finality that was; that defines cessationism when you cease to have apostles you cease to have the signs that were unique to the apostles. So when someone says he's Cessationist…[he doesn't] mean the Holy Spirit ceased to work or Christ ceased to work. I only mean that the things that attended the apostles have ceased when the apostles ceased." -John MacArthur

"One of the arguments I've made is that every charismatic except the really bizarre quirky ones if you take the better charismatics the ones whose theology are more on the sound end of the spectrum they're all Cessationists as well because and in fact they would admit this. Wayne grudem says contemporary prophecy the prophecies we're hearing today are fallible; everybody would acknowledge that the tongues people speak today are not like the tongues at Pentecost, they're not translatable languages. So clearly something has changed and unless you want to deny that you've embraced the kind of cessationism." - Interviewer

[John MaCarthur resumes]
"Yeah you just put your finger on what I think is the knockout punch in the final chapter of the book. The last chapter is an open letter to my continuationist friends---and my continuation friends are my friends even friends theologically in many cases, and they want to be continuationist. But in that chapter and exactly what Phil said is the case:

• they believe in tongues that aren't languages whereas clearly in the New Testament they were languages.
• they believe in miracles that aren't necessarily like the miracles Jesus and the apostles did.
• and they say that they believe in revelation divine revelation but not infallible revelation.

So they have miracles that aren't the same as the New Testament, miracles terms that aren't the same as the New Testament, tongues prophecies that aren't the same as the New Testament prophecies, that's not continuation that is cessation and inventing something else.

So we need to come up with a new name for them you know they are "inventionists". I don't know what but that that is not a continuity--- once you say it's not what was then you're not really a continuationist. So I try to back them into a corner and make them admit that they're not really continuationist but rather they're guilty of putting the stamp of divine approval and labeling the work of the Holy Spirit on things that have no biblical parallel."-John MacArthur

John MacArthur IMHO is an antichrist for he rejects the existence of the apostle and prophet in the church today.
Thus, he denies the life of Christ (whom Christ is both apostle and prophet - as well as evangelist, pastor, and teacher) in His people and this is tantamount to denying Christ. And the apostle John said that to deny Christ is to be antichrist, to deny the Father and the Son.
Sorry John.

 

[Deidr]

John MacArthur IMHO is an antichrist for he rejects the existence of the apostle and prophet in the church today.
Thus, he denies the life of Christ (whom Christ is both apostle and prophet - as well as evangelist, pastor, and teacher) in His people and this is tantamount to denying Christ. And the apostle John said that to deny Christ is to be antichrist, to deny the Father and the Son.
Sorry John.

That's not what anti Chist means

 

[jeremiah1five]

That's not what anti Chist means

Anti- is defined as "in place of" or "against." To deny the life of Christ IN His people is to be against Christ. Thus, antichrist fits MacArthur.

 

[Deidr]

Anti- is defined as "in place of" or "against." To deny the life of Christ IN His people is to be against Christ. Thus, antichrist fits MacArthur.

2 John 1:7

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, people who do not confess Jesus as Christ coming in the flesh. This person is the deceiver and the antichrist!

 

[Alfred Persson]

John MacArthur IMHO is an antichrist for he rejects the existence of the apostle and prophet in the church today.
Thus, he denies the life of Christ (whom Christ is both apostle and prophet - as well as evangelist, pastor, and teacher) in His people and this is tantamount to denying Christ. And the apostle John said that to deny Christ is to be antichrist, to deny the Father and the Son.
Sorry John.

Incorrect.

He denies modern apostles and prophets are the same at the NT versions.

He rejects the claim modern versions are a "continuation" of what existed in the 1st century in the pages of the New Testament, because they are different.

To illustrate his argument:

A coin expert disputes the claim a Modern $1 silver plated coin is the same pure silver $1 coin used by the Colonialists.

Modern silver plating didn't exist in 1776 proves them different.

Different construction proves the modern silver-plated coin is NOT a "continuation" of a pure silver coin used by the Colonialists.

The Coin Expert is not "anti-Capitalist, anti-American, AntiColonialist, AntiMoney, AntiCoin, AntiSilver, or anti-anything".

He demands "truth in advertising".

If you want him to buy your burger, it better be a real burger.

• they believe in tongues that aren't languages whereas clearly in the New Testament they were languages.
• they believe in miracles that aren't necessarily like the miracles Jesus and the apostles did.
• and they say that they believe in revelation divine revelation but not infallible revelation.

So they have miracles that aren't the same as the New Testament, tongues that aren't the same as the New Testament, tongues prophecies that aren't the same as the New Testament prophecies, that's not continuation that is cessation and inventing something else.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Anti- is defined as "in place of" or "against." To deny the life of Christ IN His people is to be against Christ. Thus, antichrist fits MacArthur.

Incorrect.

Because there are differences in doctrine and practice between modern versions and what we see in the NT, he is denying they are the same thing.

Like denying a veggie burger is the same thing as an Angus Beef Burger.

He is not antiburger.

He loves Burgers.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Actually you merely present your view of scripture. This inability to see that distinction make discussion fruitless.

Incorrect.

A person's interpretation can be "objectively proved right or wrong" using the words in a text.

If that weren't true, God wouldn't have authored scripture. He would use something else.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that (2443 ἵνα hina) the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim. 3:16-17 NKJ)

2443 ἵνα hina
Meaning: 1) that, in order that, so that

God wrote scripture "in order that" the man of God be fully equipped.

Therefore, your claim "discussion is fruitless", is unscriptural and demeans the very book God wrote "for correction."

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11 KJV)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson many of us have been through this with you many times and even giving our testimonies of the Spiritual gifts that each of us have been given. Sir, you are in a Christian forum that believes in Spiritual gifts and have practiced and seen these gifts work through the Holy Spirit. It wasn't the Apostles that had these gifts and died with them, but the Holy Spirit that worked these Spiritual gifts through them as well as everyone today that have sought after them. The only ones that are going to believe in these false teachings are those who have been blinded to truth as they would rather believe man's doctrines instead of the doctrines of Christ Jesus in what He has already taught.

I encourage you to start studying the Bible for what has already been written as you will be held accountable to God for preaching another doctrine.

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11 KJV)

Scripture says it is "noble" to seek proof.

Prophets can prove they have the biblical gift of prophecy.

Prophesy something that happens tomorrow and will be reported in "the Daily Mail":

Home | Daily Mail Online

MailOnline - get the latest breaking news, celebrity photos, viral videos, science & tech news, and top stories from MailOnline and the Daily Mail newspaper.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Do that, and you will convince me.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jesus was Apostle:
Hebrews 3:1 (KJV)
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Jesus was Prophet:
John 4:19 (KJV)
19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

Jesus was Evangelist:
Matthew 4:17 (KJV)
17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus was Pastor:
John 10:11 (KJV)
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Jesus was Teacher:
John 3:2 (KJV)
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

In MacArthur's NKJV Study Bible at the entry of 1 Corinthians 12 and Ephesians 4 MacArthur declares the apostle and prophet ceased when the last apostle died. Since 'Christ' is defined as 'anointing' (referring to the Holy Spirit) and that Christ is apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, and teacher, MacArthur is denying that the life of Christ is no longer 'in the flesh' of His people, that there are no longer the apostle and prophet in the body of Christ. Instead of a five-fold ministry as taught in Ephesians 4:11 MacArthur is a three-fold ministry person. By denying the existence of the apostle and prophet in the Church MacArthur's position makes him an antichrist to deny Christ as apostle and prophet in the body of Christ in His people - 'in the flesh.'

And to deny Christ comes 'in the flesh' in His people makes him antichrist.


And yes, I understand that denying Christ came in His own body makes a person antichrist as well.

 

[for_his_glory]

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11 KJV)

Scripture says it is "noble" to seek proof.

Prophets can prove they have the biblical gift of prophecy.

Prophesy something that happens tomorrow and will be reported in "the Daily Mail":

Home | Daily Mail Online

MailOnline - get the latest breaking news, celebrity photos, viral videos, science & tech news, and top stories from MailOnline and the Daily Mail newspaper.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Do that, and you will convince me.

And our proof is in the testimonies we give of the Spiritual gifts that are found in scripture and have been given to us by the Holy Spirit that works in us and through us. You need to prove by giving us the scriptures that say these gifts have ceased when the Apostles died. Can you do that!

 

[Alfred Persson]

Does one have to be a believer to have the gift of tongues?

And our proof is in the testimonies we give of the Spiritual gifts that are found in scripture and have been given to us by the Holy Spirit that works in us and through us. You need to prove by giving us the scriptures that say these gifts have ceased when the Apostles died. Can you do that!

Now we come full circle. You point to gifts and claim "these are the same as in the New Testament".

But they aren't:

As MacArthur points out:

• they believe in tongues that aren't languages whereas clearly in the New Testament they were languages.
• they believe in miracles that aren't necessarily like the miracles Jesus and the apostles did.
• and they say that they believe in revelation divine revelation but not infallible revelation.

So they have miracles that aren't the same as the New Testament, tongues that aren't the same as the New Testament, tongues prophecies that aren't the same as the New Testament prophecies, that's not continuation that is cessation and inventing something else.


Its odd you don't commend me for being careful. You know these are the last days, you know evil is on the rise, that scripture warns about spiritual deception. It commends everyone who is careful.

But you get angry I do as scripture commands:

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thess. 5:21 KJV)