Judas Iscariot

[JLB]

dirtfarmer here

There are some that say that Judas was saved and then, when he betrayed Jesus, lost his salvation. It is my understanding from scripture that Judas Iscariot was never saved.

John 6:70-71 states: " Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil" The reason "a" is a different color is because it is not in the original. Devil is translated from the greek "diabolis" devil, the major personified spirit of evil, the foe of God.
v 71 " He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve."

Judas Iscariot was the "son of perdition", according to scripture and in Acts 1:25 it is stated; "Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place". His own place has the meaning of, the place which was his particular place only.


Do this verses give any reason to believe that Judas Iscariot was ever saved? In John 17:12 this is what Jesus said about Judas.
" While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me have I kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition: that the scripture might be fulfilled." The play on words between the first "kept"; I preserved them, and the second "kept" ; I guarded them. The first is salvation but the second has nothing to do with salvation, but kept them alive, guarded them.

2 Thessalonians 2:3, " Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
From these scripture can was can we say that Judas Iscariot will be the counterfeit that Satan will present to the world as savior during the tribulation and sit in the temple and saying that he is God?

Please explain how a sheep, becomes lost, if the sheep was never a part of the Great Shepherds flock?



JLB

 

[JLB]

dirtfarmer here

There are some that say that Judas was saved and then, when he betrayed Jesus, lost his salvation. It is my understanding from scripture that Judas Iscariot was never saved.

John 6:70-71 states: " Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil" The reason "a" is a different color is because it is not in the original. Devil is translated from the greek "diabolis" devil, the major personified spirit of evil, the foe of God.
v 71 " He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve."

Judas Iscariot was the "son of perdition", according to scripture and in Acts 1:25 it is stated; "Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place". His own place has the meaning of, the place which was his particular place only.


Do this verses give any reason to believe that Judas Iscariot was ever saved? In John 17:12 this is what Jesus said about Judas.
" While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me have I kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition: that the scripture might be fulfilled." The play on words between the first "kept"; I preserved them, and the second "kept" ; I guarded them. The first is salvation but the second has nothing to do with salvation, but kept them alive, guarded them.

2 Thessalonians 2:3, " Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."
From these scripture can was can we say that Judas Iscariot will be the counterfeit that Satan will present to the world as savior during the tribulation and sit in the temple and saying that he is God?

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.
• if anyone among you wanders from the truth; again anyone among you refers to Christian brothers.
  
• wanders from the truth; Jesus Christ is the truth. The Gospel of the kingdom.
• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in eternal death.


Jesus taught the same thing:

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.

A Sheep who belongs to the Shepherd, that becomes lost, is as a sinner in need of repentance.

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

• Lost Coin:

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32



JLB

 

[Nathan]

It's a statement from one of Jesus' prayers in Gethsemane.
John 17:12

Right, but your statement said that he was not really "lost" as Jesus said so that the scriptures could be fulfilled. The statement of yours sounds like you are saying that he was not really 'lost' as Jesus said he was, when the statement Jesus made said that in fact Judas was lost from Him.

Do you mean that Judas was not really "lost" as we think of lost? I just was trying to understand what your saying because to me it sounded like you were saying Jesus did not really mean what He said.

 

[Soul man]

There are some that say that Judas was saved and then, when he betrayed Jesus, lost his salvation. It is my understanding from scripture that Judas Iscariot was never saved.

Saved, never saved, as in the same type of salvation recieved after the cross? Judas Iscariot was under 'obedience to the law.'

 

[dirtfarmer]

Saved, never saved, as in the same type of salvation recieved after the cross? Judas Iscariot was under 'obedience to the law.'

hello Soul man, dirtfarmer here

Yes, Judas Iscariot was " under obedience to the law", but the law never gave any one a clear conscious. Christ was the only one that kept the whole law, no one else had or even has the ability to keep the whole law. Scripture states that the law was a "schoolmaster " until Christ came. Salvation under the law looked forward to Christ's cross, while salvation today looks back to Christ's cross.

 

[Soul man]

hello Soul man, dirtfarmer here

Yes, Judas Iscariot was " under obedience to the law", but the law never gave any one a clear conscious. Christ was the only one that kept the whole law, no one else had or even has the ability to keep the whole law. Scripture states that the law was a "schoolmaster " until Christ came. Salvation under the law looked forward to Christ's cross, while salvation today looks back to Christ's cross.

Yes, I think Judas broke every law in existence. The cross is the dividing line between the Old Testament and New Testament. You can see all through the book of Acts where God was still using the law to try and reach Israel, it's all they knew. Acts 28:28 Paul makes a bold declaration, IMO to move us into Grace.

 

[JohnDB]

Right, but your statement said that he was not really "lost" as Jesus said so that the scriptures could be fulfilled. The statement of yours sounds like you are saying that he was not really 'lost' as Jesus said he was, when the statement Jesus made said that in fact Judas was lost from Him.

Do you mean that Judas was not really "lost" as we think of lost? I just was trying to understand what your saying because to me it sounded like you were saying Jesus did not really mean what He said.

He was lost as we think of as lost vx saved. He wasn't lost as in accidentally misplaced, or unsupported in his decision to follow Jesus by Jesus. IOW Jesus didn't deliberately drive him away.

He appeared to be one of the Apostles...not quite a Peter or John but definitely better than Thomas or Phillip.
There was no distinguishing between he and the others from outside appearance or "red flag" statements he made.
The one question about the expensive perfume is the worst thing he ever said. And an often question today about finances and our relationship with God. So it still isn't a red flag question.

And finally...
Jesus had protected all the Apostles while they were with him. From Jesus' prayer it is obvious that Jesus considered these men as a blessing and a gift from God. And that Jesus valued them as such. Where the going was sometimes difficult that Jesus had not lost any of them. IOW He had been a good leader.

Judas was doomed long before his parents were even born. You can't say that he was ever saved. But by the same token you can't say that he was lost either.
Judas' role and actions were scripted long before (Isaiah and David) he was ever there. Not that the choices he made for himself were coerced. He owned them completely. God knows the future just as well as current and past events. And even though God may know these things that doesn't mean that He necessarily causes them or prevents them. Even though it is obvious that God can and has intervened in individual lives.
Jesus could have saved Judas...but He didn't. Jesus didn't have to die...but He did. God has his own choices and I know that I am not smart enough to question them.

 

[Nathan]

I honestly do not think its right to say that Jesus could have saved Judas - but He didn't. That means that God chooses some to be unable to receive salvation. We cannot lay aside all of what God has said just to 'try' and make sense of why Judas would betray Christ. Its the same reason why we cannot reason away why someone who is a friend of Jesus, and one that Jesus trusted, but also one that Jesus was not going to die for.

Jesus died for the sins of Judas - Judas chose not to believe it in the end and betrayed Christ instead. Peter also denied Christ - but unlike Judas, Peter returned to Christ. We do not find that it was something Judas had to do, but rather something that was known that he was going to do.

Judas had salvation and chose to deny it - just like everyone who is called by God has salvation, and they either choose to believe it or deny it.

The fact that Judas betrayed Jesus is just an event that fulfilled prophecy in order for us to know that Jesus was the Christ who is God's Son.

 

[JLB]

Saved, never saved, as in the same type of salvation recieved after the cross? Judas Iscariot was under 'obedience to the law.'

16 “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it. Luke 16:16

Judas believed for a while, then fell away, and became a traitor, being appointed unto eternal life with the others, destined to reign with Christ and the others in the Kingdom to come.

So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28


This was spoken to Judas and the others.

Judas made a choice, and betrayed Jesus, and became lost.



JLB

 

[JohnDB]

I honestly do not think its right to say that Jesus could have saved Judas - but He didn't. That means that God chooses some to be unable to receive salvation. We cannot lay aside all of what God has said just to 'try' and make sense of why Judas would betray Christ. Its the same reason why we cannot reason away why someone who is a friend of Jesus, and one that Jesus trusted, but also one that Jesus was not going to die for.

Jesus died for the sins of Judas - Judas chose not to believe it in the end and betrayed Christ instead. Peter also denied Christ - but unlike Judas, Peter returned to Christ. We do not find that it was something Judas had to do, but rather something that was known that he was going to do.

Judas had salvation and chose to deny it - just like everyone who is called by God has salvation, and they either choose to believe it or deny it.

The fact that Judas betrayed Jesus is just an event that fulfilled prophecy in order for us to know that Jesus was the Christ who is God's Son.

Luke 10:13 is what was on my mind when I said this.
God chose not to perform in Tyre and Sidon but instead in Khorazin and Bethsaida. As a result all four cities were doomed.
God has mercy on whom He will have mercy exercised upon for reasons of his own.
As I said before, I know that I am not smart enough to know why He does what He does. I seriously doubt that it is arbitrary even if it seems otherwise. I am merely grateful for what I have. And lots of reasons to hold that gratitude.

 

[Nathan]

Luke 10:13 is what was on my mind when I said this.
God chose not to perform in Tyre and Sidon but instead in Khorazin and Bethsaida. As a result all four cities were doomed.
God has mercy on whom He will have mercy exercised upon for reasons of his own.
As I said before, I know that I am not smart enough to know why He does what He does. I seriously doubt that it is arbitrary even if it seems otherwise. I am merely grateful for what I have. And lots of reasons to hold that gratitude.

Well, your not alone. I too am grateful.

I think that mercy is often misunderstood. Mercy is God's withholding of judgment. Sometimes people(I am not saying you) mix it up with grace, which is God's giving of favor.

People think that God "having mercy on whom He will, and not on others"(my paraphrase of Romans 9:18) is God not giving grace to some. That could not be further from the truth.

Not having mercy simply means that God executes judgment on a person(or group of people) sooner than He would others. Judgment still comes, but for some it is sooner than later - others God gives great lengths of time.

 

[Mike]

I've moved this thread to the Theology Forum where it fits right in with the TF format. An opening statement was made and defended or opposed afterword. That's the Theology Forum recipe.

Please keep the TF rules in mind going forward and enjoy.

 

[Cygnus]

Please explain how a sheep, becomes lost, if the sheep was never a part of the Great Shepherds flock?



JLB

Does lost always refer to salvation?

...if I remember correctly Jesus left the flock and went out and found the sheep.

 

[JLB]

Does lost always refer to salvation?

...if I remember correctly Jesus left the flock and went out and found the sheep.

Yes, brother, and thank God Jesus did that, because that most assuredly was me.


However, let's also examine what lost means, to see if it is possible that one of "His sheep" can indeed become lost.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7

The sheep belongs to the Shepherd, and becomes "lost".

• there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.
Found = Someone that is reconciled to God; saved.


Likewise this definition is continued in the next two examples.

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

• Lost Coin:

Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32

A brother can indeed become "lost", if he turns from the truth.

Those who repent and then later, are unfaithful and return to serving sin and obeying unrighteousness, have wandered [like a sheep who has become lost], from the truth and is likened to a sinner.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.
• if anyone among you wanders from the truth; again anyone among you refers to Christian brothers.
  
• wanders from the truth; Jesus Christ is the truth. The Gospel of the kingdom.
• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death;

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in eternal death.



JLB

 

[Cygnus]

The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in eternal death.

It's called "back slidden".
In fact you backslide a little every time you sin.

 

[JLB]

It's called "back slidden".
In fact you backslide a little every time you sin.

The point being, we can disregard the warnings given to us in scripture, and continue to sin until, through the deceitfulness of sin we become hardened.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

• lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
• lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Peter says it this way:


20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

• after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

JLB

 

[Nathan]

In the case of Judas and Peter, we see the distinction of how hardness of sin plays out.

In the case of Judas, after He denied Christ, his heart became hardened to Christ being his forgiveness. Instead of believing in Christ for forgiveness, he chose to believe that Christ could not forgive him and hung himself.

In the case of Peter, after He denied Christ, his heart did not harden. Later, when approached by Christ, Peter believed that Christ forgave him.

Sin in the life of a believer has the potential to harden their heart to believe in Christ alone for salvation. That is why sin should not be seen as insignificant.

When a persons heart becomes hardened by sin, then they turn from the pure faith that only Christ saves them to another 'salvation'(not that there is one) for forgiveness. This could be many things.

• It could be what they did one time by going down front in a revival
• It could be what they did one time by feeding the poor.
• It could be what they thought one time at an altar.
• It could be what they said one time at a prayer meeting.

It can be just about anything you can think of - but the substance is not Christ alone. It is in Christ alone that we are saved, and anything added to that is not true salvation. Sin leads a person to add to it.

When a person becomes hardened by sin, they start to turn to things they know for salvation rather than Christ.

I beg and plead with anyone reading this, if you are in this place, turn to Christ alone. Do not put any confidence in the flesh. He has forgiven EVERY sin you have done, no matter what it is, or how many times you have done it. He has forgiven you and wants you to turn to Him and believe in Him alone for forgiveness. Do not trust in anything you have done for forgiveness - believe in Him alone.

 

[JLB]

I beg and plead with anyone reading this, if you are in this place, turn to Christ alone. Do not put any confidence in the flesh. He has forgiven EVERY sin you have done, no matter what it is, or how many times you have done it. He has forgiven you and wants you to turn to Him and believe in Him alone for forgiveness. Do not trust in anything you have done for forgiveness - believe in Him alone.

Do not put any confidence in the flesh.

I totally agree.


Could you please clarify, what you mean by He has forgiven every sin you have done?

I think I understand what you mean, but if we could discuss this a little, for clarification.

When we believe the Gospel and repent, we are forgiven our sins, and have a new life in Christ.


From that point we begin our journey in Christ, in which we undergo the process of transformation.

From this point, if we sin, then we confess our sin, and He is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:9-10


I don't think you are saying that the moment we "believe", we are automatically forgiven every sin we will every commit.

Right?



JLB

 

[Nathan]

I totally agree.


Could you please clarify, what you mean by He has forgiven every sin you have done?

I think I understand what you mean, but if we could discuss this a little, for clarification.

When we believe the Gospel and repent, we are forgiven our sins, and have a new life in Christ.


From that point we begin our journey in Christ, in which we undergo the process of transformation.

From this point, if we sin, then we confess our sin, and He is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:9-10


I don't think you are saying that the moment we "believe", we are automatically forgiven every sin we will every commit.

Right?



JLB

Christ died once, making the perfect sacrifice for all time.

Hebrews 5:9 (ESV)
And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him

However, it is only in Christ that this perpetual forgiveness is found.

Our sins were forgiven at the Cross. The blood of Christ is applied to those in Christ. He is the propitiation of our sins.

If we turn from Him, rejecting His blood, then it is not upon us - there is no other way of forgiveness.

We don't do anything to earn His forgiveness, and we don't do anything to keep His forgiveness - we simply believe and abide in Him for His forgiveness.

To deny Him, deny the faith He gave us, is to deny forgiveness.

 

[Cygnus]

The point being, we can disregard the warnings given to us in scripture, and continue to sin until, through the deceitfulness of sin we become hardened.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

• lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
• lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Peter says it this way:


20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

• after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

JLB

You still don't understand backslidden.

Sure you'll be somewhat out f fellowship.....but you'll remain saved.