Justified while Ungodly !

[childeye]

The wording is a little bit different, but in effect you’re saying the same thing and yet somehow your brain thinks the 2 are different. I was "brainwashed" like that, too! I encourage you to read Psalms 119.

Fundamentally I don't believe Light depends on darkness to exist, it's just appreciated for what it is, when seen in the contrast. And so I do not believe sin lasts forever. But we do deal with it now in this present age and Psalms 119 is indicative of that. But Who God is can never be digitized and Knowing God is trustworthy is the beginning of obedience.

While it was presented to us written in stone as our marriage vows at Mt Sinai, the law has been in place since the creation. The first mention of sin is when Cain’s offering was not accepted. The offerings Cain and Abel were making were most likely either the morning or the evening lamb (aka: the continual burnt offering of Ex 29:39.) Abraham was obedient centuries before Sinai (Gen 26:5)

I don't see the offering as a work of the law. But it does reveal an attitude based upon a vanity in the offering presented by Cain.

Since “fulfill” is opposite of “abolish” (Mat 5:17) the correct defintion of fulfill is to “make greater than it was before.” Obedience proves love.

The term fulfill to me means to do what was required. Disobedience proves sin, Love is Eternal and cannot be measured as to it's beginning or it's end, therefore obedience proves faithfulness unto that Love.

God describes Himself as having 13 characters (or attributes), which MATCH the 13 sacrifices. So which character are you referring to? And Christianity as a whole are NOT “willing servants” because they refuse to obey.

I am refering to the Character of the Christ who sacrifices himself to save others. I would request if you could take the time to please list the thirteen sacrifices and describe the character they represent. Your term for christianity most likely is a mix of bad and good and in degrees.

 

[savedbygrace57]

God imputes Righteousness without Works !


Rom 4:6

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

God imputes Righteousness without Works , that is previous acts from the sinner, without works. Works is the greek word ergon and means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Basically this means that this person or persons had Righteousness imputed unto them for not doing anything !

This includes heart Work by which we Believe Rom 10:10

10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is so because Righteousness is imputed solely because of Christ's Obedience to Law and Justice on behalf of all He died in the stead of Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

All for whom Christ died [The Many] have Righteousness imputed to them, even while they are " by nature, children of wrath as others" !

 

[nmwings]

I don't see the offering as a work of the law

Again, that is only because no one has ever taught you anything about offerings, gifts or sacrifices to the Lord. I certainly didn’t get any instruction in MY church, except to “love, love, love,†and I suspect the same is true with you.

The term fulfill to me means to do what was required.

Which shows that whoever has been teaching you in the past has planted a very distorted view in your head of what “sacrifice†means. God has always required the shedding of blood as payment for the remission of sin. Which is why we are forbidden from eating blood. The life is in the blood... and all life belongs to Him. Yeshua (or in the english "Jesus") was never REQUIRED to suffer for us. He promised to do it, but He did it WILLINGLY. Thus it was a gift (a sacrifice; payment) and not a requirement (debt.) I dare say that without the most BASIC of instruction on the Altar service, we have NO idea what the Messiah has done for us, nor do we have a clue what "substitution" is all about. I know I didn't until it was explained to me.

I am refering to the Character of the Christ who sacrifices himself to save others.

However, this is not a “character†of God. It is a PROMISE made to Abraham and his descendants that God Himself would die in our place (an act of substitution) as payment for our disobedience to Him. Yeshua (Jesus) kept His ministry centered around the Galilee. WHY?? In order to bring a restitution, one must go to the place where it was broken (think of it as a broken link in a chain.) The Galilee was the area in which the covenant was first broken and the 10 southern tribes (Israel) were taken into Assyrian captivity, while Judah (the Jews) remained in the Land. (See 2 Ki 15:27-29) This is why Yeshua (Jesus) kept saying over and over, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

I would request if you could take the time to please list the thirteen sacrifices and describe the character they represent.

I could, but it would be meaningless to you without a proper understanding of the Altar and the sacrifices themselves. There is a lot to cover and this topic goes beyond the subject of this thread. If you are serious about this, I guess I could start a new thread on this subject. I DON’T want to put it in an area where debating is allowed. I don’t mind trying to explain, but I feel like I’m wasting my time when people scoff and argue things because they have hardened their hearts and are unwilling to learn. I’m learning all the time, and the more I learn, the more I realize just how LITTLE I know.

If you are serious, tell me where to post the thread and I will begin….

 

[savedbygrace57]

Who are the objects of God's Justification ?

I do not believe it can be made more plainer who they are Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.


It's the Elect of God, and them only !

 

[childeye]

Again, that is only because no one has ever taught you anything about offerings, gifts or sacrifices to the Lord. I certainly didn’t get any instruction in MY church, except to “love, love, love,” and I suspect the same is true with you.

Actually nmwings, I was never taught in a church. As I told you before, I am not taught by any man. That may sound boastful, but I have seen a self-evident Truth and I have only been learning how to articulate it.

Which shows that whoever has been teaching you in the past has planted a very distorted view in your head of what “sacrifice” means. God has always required the shedding of blood as payment for the remission of sin. Which is why we are forbidden from eating blood. The life is in the blood... and all life belongs to Him. Yeshua (or in the english "Jesus") was never REQUIRED to suffer for us. He promised to do it, but He did it WILLINGLY. Thus it was a gift (a sacrifice; payment) and not a requirement (debt.) I dare say that without the most BASIC of instruction on the Altar service, we have NO idea what the Messiah has done for us, nor do we have a clue what "substitution" is all about. I know I didn't until it was explained to me.

As I said, I have been training to articulate a self-evident Truth. Apparrantly I am not doing so well. I can see misunderstanding as you say there is a distorted view in my head of sacrifice, and then go on to describe what I already know. Hence there is misunderstanding.

However, this is not a “character” of God. It is a PROMISE made to Abraham and his descendants that God Himself would die in our place (an act of substitution) as payment for our disobedience to Him. Yeshua (Jesus) kept His ministry centered around the Galilee. WHY?? In order to bring a restitution, one must go to the place where it was broken (think of it as a broken link in a chain.) The Galilee was the area in which the covenant was first broken and the 10 southern tribes (Israel) were taken into Assyrian captivity, while Judah (the Jews) remained in the Land. (See 2 Ki 15:27-29) This is why Yeshua (Jesus) kept saying over and over, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

But nmwings, Christ is the True Image of God sent for us to believe in, and his substitution for us, is the signature in blood of His Divine Love. That speaks the most deepest as to His Character, especially since the false image of god presented by the devil is the exact opposite.

I could, but it would be meaningless to you without a proper understanding of the Altar and the sacrifices themselves. There is a lot to cover and this topic goes beyond the subject of this thread. If you are serious about this, I guess I could start a new thread on this subject. I DON’T want to put it in an area where debating is allowed. I don’t mind trying to explain, but I feel like I’m wasting my time when people scoff and argue things because they have hardened their hearts and are unwilling to learn. I’m learning all the time, and the more I learn, the more I realize just how LITTLE I know.

If you are serious, tell me where to post the thread and I will begin….

Perhaps you could do it in the personal messages application. I am not yet convinced I need to know what you have to present, but I am open to what you feel important to say if it will add to me. I understand your desire to not debate an issue, but I feel I have already seen a propensity towards misunderstanding what is being said between us. While I am more sure such misunderstandings are due to the fealty of language, perhaps it is the devil attempting to confound the conversation. I would therefore like to be able to make clear any misunderstandings that may occur without being perceived as debating the issue. So far we are only debating terminology.

 

[JMJ]

This is my point about man-made traditions to “enhance the worship of God.” No one has such authority.

Would you agree that Moses' authority was given to him by God and that he spoke for God?

Who had the authority to speak for God when Jesus was on earth (in addition to Jesus)?

The book of Psalms IS the “written history” of the prayers spoken in the Temple, and have been prayed three times a day by observant Jews since theTemple was destroyed 2000 years ago. The details of the services have also been preserved in a book called the “Mishna.” The Levites in Jerusalem have been preparing (and are now ready) to reestablish the Altar and are waiting only for the right time to do so. If you’ve been paying attention to what’s happening in the Middle East, you would know the time frame is down to a matter of months now.

The Mishna is not in the Scriptures so why are you mentioning it? Are you now telling us about this book because you have changed your mind and now believe that not everything that is obviously important/relevant is written in the Scriptures?

Last time I checked on the temple project's progress, the Jews did not have the unblemished red heifer's ashes. Do they have the ashes now? They need them for the water of purification rite. The temple has to be rebuilt first before they can dedicate its altar. It is more than a matter of months away since the Dome of the Rock of the Muslims sits today on part of the temple mount. Perhaps either an earthquake or bomb will topple it soon? If either happens, it would still take quite awhile to clear the rubble and rebuild the temple.

Mr. Spock’s (Star Trek) “Live long and prosper” hand greeting (2 pairs of fingers splayed apart) IS that gesture…. except instead of on just the one hand, the high priest splayes out his fingers on BOTH hands. He raises his arms out in front of his chest towards the people with his thumbs touching and his pointy fingers touching, making a triangle. He then says, “And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: "Speak to Aaron and his sons, saying, 'This is the way you shall bless the children of Israel. Say to them: "The Lord bless you and keep you; The Lord make His face shine upon you, And be gracious to you; The Lord lift up His countenance upon you, And give you peace." (Num 6:22-26) Since this gesture is reserved for the High Priest only, Torah teachers and rabbis wrap their tzitzit (the fringes of the corners of their prayer shawls) around their fingers, and lift their arms toward the people of their congregation. This blessing is said at the conclusion of every Sabbath evening service.

Rabbi Spock???? Chief priest Spock????:D

Please post the Scripture notation for these important gesture instructions. Thank you.

Tradition focuses on “having only enough oil for one day, yet miraculously it lasted for 8 days.” THAT is NOT recorded. The REAL miracle is that a handful of people zealous for the Lord and His commandments obtained victory over the invincible Romans; aka: “they prevailed over the Beast.” The same will be true in this generation during the Great Tribulation. Those who stand for the Lord AND His commandments will prevail over the Beast. Since you proclaim to be a believer in the Messiah AND stand for His commandments, you should be observing Hanukkah as well.

I am not against Hanukkah, as I observe it every year. What I AM against is the “one day’s supply of oil lasting for 8 days.” That is not recorded and it takes away from the REAL miracle.

It is your free will choice to be against anything you want to be against. To each his own. I do not judge the Jews on their worship practices. That is God's job. I personally see no harm in this particular practice of celebrating the miracle of the oil lasting eight days. IF I were Jewish, I would be happily celebrating it with no guilt attached to my actions.

I do not see any command in Scripture that states that every single thing pertinent to Jewish life and worship practices must be recorded in Scripture.

Also, Scripture cannot authenticate itself. Without authentication by the persons who were authorized by God to authenticate, the words in the Bible would be no more important to me than the words in the Koran. I personally must trust the people who say the Bible is true in order to believe that the words written in it are true.

About the oil miracle: The 8 Hanukkah candles on the menorahs today represent the 8 day miracle of the oil. Each year the Jews commemorate this past victory over the Romans. The oil lasting 8 days instead of one day was a visual sign from God that He was with them and that He would give them victory. It gave them hope and courage.

God sometimes uses ordinary things as visual reminders of His invisible presence.

The resurrection Sunday celebrations that are held every year commemorate Jesus' victory over death. I like being reminded every year.

Since you seem to be "pro-obedience," allow me to test the waters: Passover is next week. Are you observing it in your home or with a group?

I have attended a Seder meal in the past and it was very meaningful. I did not attend it because I thought it was commanded. I attended it in order to better understand my Master's heritage.

Since I am under the NC and not the OC, I am not required to observe/do the Seder ritual of Passover nor eat the Passover Lamb. I will be commemorating Jesus' Last Supper since this is when He became the Paschal Lamb of the New Covenant.


Colossians 2:11-17 NKJV
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[a] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Paul commands me to not let persons such as yourself judge me concerning my non-participation in the Seder meal and my non-participation in Jewish Sabbath worship practices; and this is because Christians are not bound by the OC Sabbath laws.

 

[JMJ]

Who are the objects of God's Justification ?

I do not believe it can be made more plainer who they are Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

It's the Elect of God, and them only !

No person who is still living on earth can be absolutely positive that he is one of God's elect. He will find out for sure when he is judged. God knows by foreknowledge who His elect are. We do not have this foreknowledge.

Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV)
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

1 Corinthians 4:4-5 (NKJV)
4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God.

Good advice.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Justified by His Blood

All for whom Christ died scripture indicates that they are Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The word Justified is the greek word dikaioō and means:


to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

So everyone Christ died for is declared Righteous before God, and their deliverance from God's Wrath is ensured, that is from His retributive wrath for their sins. They by the Blood of Christ [alone] are freed from the Law of sin and Death, in that God in Justice can never punish them for their sins again for Christ's Sake. Even when one who is covered by the Blood of the lamb, is born into this world as a by nature, child of wrath as others, they are never and can never be under God's vindictive and punitive wrath, for that could only be if Christ had not already satisfied all of God's Law and Justice on their behalf by His Cross ! Consequently, every ungodly sinner that is born into this world, whom Christ died for Rom 5:6, shed His Blood for, are already Justified from all things, and stand before God clothed in the perfect Righteousness of Christ, solely by Grace Rom 3:24; Yes in themselves deserving as others wrath and condemnation, but because of Christ, they are born into this world, even as ungodly sinners, Heirs of Eternal Glory !

 

[JMJ]

There are two parts to the salvation process. There is the initial reconciliation with God and then there is the continuation of the reconciliation with God until death.

Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. (This is the first part which Jesus does for us with no help from us.) 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (This is the second part which we do for God until we die with the help of the Holy Spirit.)

Both parts of the salvation process are necessary in order for a person to be approved to enter into eternal life after his death.

Jesus was not joking when He stated:

Matthew 19:16-19 (NIV)
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?â€
17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?†Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.â€
18 “Which ones?†he inquired.
Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’â€

Paul was not joking when he said:

1 Corinthians 7:19 (NKJV)
19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

 

[nmwings]

I am so very sorry that it has taken me so long to get back to this forum. Things have been incredibly hectic around here these last 2 weeks. Please accept my deepest apologies "childeye" and "JMJ" as I was NOT blowing you off. I’ll respond to "childeye" first and then as time permits, I’ll get to you "JMJ."

Actually nmwings, I was never taught in a church. As I told you before, I am not taught by any man. That may sound boastful, but I have seen a self-evident Truth and I have only been learning how to articulate it.

I reread our posts to refresh my memory of what we had talked about and I realized you HAD told me SEVERAL times that you weren’t taught by a church. Forgive me for not paying attention to that part. But I’m curious about this “self-evident truth.†What is it that you have seen? Perhaps I’m not reading it right, (please correct me if I’m wrong) but it seems you refer to “it†in the singular context. If this is correct, I remind you that Truth can only be established upon the testimony of 2 or 3.

I can see misunderstanding as you say there is a distorted view in my head of sacrifice, and then go on to describe what I already know. Hence there is misunderstanding.

I am sorry. None of it was EVER meant to degrade you. I just assume that everyone has had the same church “teaching†as I had. And believe me, I had a VERY distorted view of sacrifice.

I am not yet convinced I need to know what you have to present, but I am open to what you feel important to say if it will add to me.

That’s ok and I understand 100%. Maybe later you’ll feel compelled to learn about it. I pray it is sooner rather than later, because we are at the threshold for the Altar to be reestablished in Jerusalem.

I understand your desire to not debate an issue, but I feel I have already seen a propensity towards misunderstanding what is being said between us. While I am more sure such misunderstandings are due to the fealty of language, perhaps it is the devil attempting to confound the conversation. I would therefore like to be able to make clear any misunderstandings that may occur without being perceived as debating the issue. So far we are only debating terminology.

I don’t mind debating an issue. What I didn’t want was a debate from other forum members on the thread I was going to start on the Altar and the sacrifices, which is why I asked you to choose a place here where debating was not allowed. But since I’m not going to do it, misunderstanding is resolved. :p

 

[childeye]

I am so very sorry that it has taken me so long to get back to this forum. Things have been incredibly hectic around here these last 2 weeks. Please accept my deepest apologies "childeye" and "JMJ" as I was NOT blowing you off. I’ll respond to "childeye" first and then as time permits, I’ll get to you "JMJ."



I reread our posts to refresh my memory of what we had talked about and I realized you HAD told me SEVERAL times that you weren’t taught by a church. Forgive me for not paying attention to that part. But I’m curious about this “self-evident truth.†What is it that you have seen? Perhaps I’m not reading it right, (please correct me if I’m wrong) but it seems you refer to “it†in the singular context. If this is correct, I remind you that Truth can only be established upon the testimony of 2 or 3.

I am sorry. None of it was EVER meant to degrade you. I just assume that everyone has had the same church “teaching†as I had. And believe me, I had a VERY distorted view of sacrifice.



That’s ok and I understand 100%. Maybe later you’ll feel compelled to learn about it. I pray it is sooner rather than later, because we are at the threshold for the Altar to be reestablished in Jerusalem.
I don’t mind debating an issue. What I didn’t want was a debate from other forum members on the thread I was going to start on the Altar and the sacrifices, which is why I asked you to choose a place here where debating was not allowed. But since I’m not going to do it, misunderstanding is resolved. :p

You got my attention when you said about the altar being reestablished in Jerusalem. So what do you think I should know?

 

[nmwings]

Would you agree that Moses' authority was given to him by God and that he spoke for God?

Yes.

Who had the authority to speak for God when Jesus was on earth (in addition to Jesus)?

Yeshua (Jesus) IS God, therefore He spoke for Himself.

The Mishna is not in the Scriptures so why are you mentioning it? Are you now telling us about this book because you have changed your mind and now believe that not everything that is obviously important/relevant is written in the Scriptures?

I have not changed my mind, but it looks to me like you’re twisting my words. YOU stated earlier:

Not everything regarding worship is written in Scripture. Written history leaves out many details.

And then I proceeded to tell you that the book of Psalms are the Temple prayers, and the Mishna (written history) is where these details are found.

Last time I checked on the temple project's progress, the Jews did not have the unblemished red heifer's ashes. Do they have the ashes now? They need them for the water of purification rite. The temple has to be rebuilt first before they can dedicate its altar. It is more than a matter of months away since the Dome of the Rock of the Muslims sits today on part of the temple mount. Perhaps either an earthquake or bomb will topple it soon? If either happens, it would still take quite awhile to clear the rubble and rebuild the temple.

A red heifer has nothing to do with the establishment of an Altar of God. The ashes are used to separate and purify life from death…. See Num 19. (On an interesting side-note, the stone pot that Yeshua used to turn water into wine at the wedding was a communal pot with these ashes in it.)
The prophecy says nothing about a Temple being rebuilt in the End of Days, only the Altar. The Temple you are referring to (described in great detail by the prophet Ezekiel in his 40-48 chapters) is the one that will be in the Kingdom AFTER the Messiah returns.

Rabbi Spock???? Chief priest Spock???? Please post the Scripture notation for these important gesture instructions. Thank you.

Leonard Nemoy is a Jew, and if you took the time to Google and research it for yourself, you’d realize you just stuck a formidable sarcastic shoe in your mouth, making you appear to be a huge horses’ rump.

I personally see no harm in this particular practice of celebrating the miracle of the oil lasting eight days. IF I were Jewish, I would be happily celebrating it with no guilt attached to my actions.

I am not Jewish, but I already told you why I celebrate it. My ONLY point then and now is that the man-made tradition of “the oil lasting for 8 eight days” is NOT recorded and it takes away from the TRUE miracle that occurred.

Also, Scripture cannot authenticate itself. Without authentication by the persons who were authorized by God to authenticate, the words in the Bible would be no more important to me than the words in the Koran. I personally must trust the people who say the Bible is true in order to believe that the words written in it are true.

Scripture DOES authenticate itself, and if you depend on mere men to tell you such-and-such is true (which is hearsay BTW and even our own judicial system will NOT allow hearsay in court proceedings to establish truth) you are believing in men and not God. If you recall, Paul taught his followers and PROVED to them straight out of the Torah (the five books of Moses) and the Prophets that Yeshua is the Messiah. No man authenticated Paul's words. Just the opposite = Scripture authenticates his words.

About the oil miracle: The 8 Hanukkah candles on the menorahs today represent the 8 day miracle of the oil. Each year the Jews commemorate this past victory over the Romans. The oil lasting 8 days instead of one day was a visual sign from God that He was with them and that He would give them victory. It gave them hope and courage.

I’ll try a different angle on this. Yes, we can all agree on the 8 days. But what is the significance of 8 days? Putting the oil aside for just a moment, what happened during those 8 days?

Since I am under the NC and not the OC, I am not required to observe/do the Seder ritual of Passover nor eat the Passover Lamb. I will be commemorating Jesus' Last Supper since this is when He became the Paschal Lamb of the New Covenant.

This is where the “traditions of men” come into play. That “Paschal Lamb” was promised to Abraham and his descendants in the OLD Covenant, to cover our disobedience to His commandments. And just because God came through on His word doesn’t mean He abandoned everything else, like “tradition” teaches. He REINFORCED that “Old” Covenant and made it even GREATER than Moses did, just EXACTLY like He told Jeremiah He would do: that He would write His Commandments on our heart, instead of on stone. This IS the re-newed covenant. And one of the prophecies of the Messiah (Jesus) is that He would be THE GREATEST TORAH TEACHER ON EARTH. And He most certainly was! The Last Supper WAS the Passover Seder. Do you not realize that Passover is more “Christian” in meaning than “Jewish” on the basis that Christians believe that Yeshua is the Messiah while the Jews do not?

Trivia question: since you have attended a Seder, which of the 4 cups of the Seder was He holding when He said He would not drink again until we are in theKingdom with Him? Now, you DO realize that we will observe Passover and all the other Biblical Feasts in Kingdom, don’t you?

Paul commands me to not let persons such as yourself judge me concerning my non-participation in the Seder meal and my non-participation in Jewish Sabbath worship practices; and this is because Christians are not bound by the OC Sabbath laws.

Once again, the traditions of men and NOT the Word of God. For someone who was so gung-ho about being obedient to the commandments of the Lord, you have certainly changed your tune. These are YOUR words, are they not?

Born gain people who do not choose to continue to obey God's commandments and/or who do not choose to do the good works He has assigned to them will not be approved to enter into eternal life after they die.

So which is it JMJ?

 

[JMJ]

Yes.

Yeshua (Jesus) IS God, therefore He spoke for Himself.

It is true that Jesus is Lord of all, but Jesus made a point to tell His Jewish brethren to do whatever the scribes and Pharisees told them to do because the scribes and Pharisees sat in Moses' chair/seat of authority. He also told them to not do what these scribes and Pharisees did personally because they did not practice what they preached.

Matthew 23:1-3 NIV
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

I have not changed my mind, but it looks to me like you’re twisting my words. YOU stated earlier: And then I proceeded to tell you that the book of Psalms are the Temple prayers, and the Mishna (written history) is where these details are found.

So, you are telling me that not everything pertaining to the worship service is written in the Bible because many important supporting details are actually written in the Mishna and not in the Bible. Scripture alone is not sufficient.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 (ESV)
15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

A red heifer has nothing to do with the establishment of an Altar of God. The ashes are used to separate and purify life from death…. See Num 19. (On an interesting side-note, the stone pot that Yeshua used to turn water into wine at the wedding was a communal pot with these ashes in it.)

John 2:6-8 (NKJV)
6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.†And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And He said to them, “Draw some out now, and take it to the master of the feast.†And they took it.

The ashes are needed to purify the entire Jewish congregation of Israel.
http://www.templeinstitute.org/red_heifer/original_ashes.htm
http://www.templeinstitute.org/red_heifer/tenth_red_heifer.htm

The prophecy says nothing about a Temple being rebuilt in the End of Days, only the Altar. The Temple you are referring to (described in great detail by the prophet Ezekiel in his 40-48 chapters) is the one that will be in the Kingdom AFTER the Messiah returns.

The Messiah does not physically return to earth to rule His kingdom on earth. At the end of time after the Tribulation of Anti-Christ is over, Jesus returns to meet His church members in the air and take them back to heaven for the Last Judgment and to be with Him forever. There will be no earthly Messianic kingdom reign of Jesus Christ in Jerusalem in Israel on earth. (This is not the correct forum to discuss any more details about this topic.)

Leonard Nemoy is a Jew, and if you took the time to Google and research it for yourself, you’d realize you just stuck a formidable sarcastic shoe in your mouth, making you appear to be a huge horses’ rump.

I prefer to learn about the Jewish religion from Jewish websites, not pop culture science fiction movies. Jewish websites are much more reliable. I can't be spending my time so frivolously. ;)

I am not Jewish, but I already told you why I celebrate it. My ONLY point then and now is that the man-made tradition of “the oil lasting for 8 eight days†is NOT recorded and it takes away from the TRUE miracle that occurred.

Perhaps there are Jews who do not see this event in the exact same manner as you do??? I personally do not know any Jews to ask about how they view this event.

Scripture DOES authenticate itself, and if you depend on mere men to tell you such-and-such is true (which is hearsay BTW and even our own judicial system will NOT allow hearsay in court proceedings to establish truth) you are believing in men and not God. If you recall, Paul taught his followers and PROVED to them straight out of the Torah (the five books of Moses) and the Prophets that Yeshua is the Messiah. No man authenticated Paul's words. Just the opposite = Scripture authenticates his words.

The Torah had already been authenticated by Jewish leaders many, many centuries before the Apostles taught from it. The apostles obviously believed that their forefathers were trustworthy and so therefore these ancestors' writings were also trustworthy.

It is obvious that you do believe that the Bible is the Word of God. Why do you believe that it is the Word of God? Why don't you believe that the Koran is the Word of God instead? Muslims believe that the Koran is the Word of God/Allah. You or I or Spock could write a book and claim that it is the Word of God. You could even put in your book that whoever is reading this book is reading the Word of God. Like I said before, Scripture cannot authenticate itself.

Many believe that Moses alone wrote the Torah. If so, it must have been strange for him to be writing about his own future death.

Deuteronomy 34:4-6 (NIV)
4 Then the LORD said to him, “This is the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when I said, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’ I have let you see it with your eyes, but you will not cross over into it.â€
5 And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. 6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.

I’ll try a different angle on this. Yes, we can all agree on the 8 days. But what is the significance of 8 days? Putting the oil aside for just a moment, what happened during those 8 days?

The eight days of oil gave the defenders hope and courage. This miracle showed them that God was with them and so they would eventually win. Hope is very important.

This is where the “traditions of men†come into play. That “Paschal Lamb†was promised to Abraham and his descendants in the OLD Covenant, to cover our disobedience to His commandments. And just because God came through on His word doesn’t mean He abandoned everything else, like “tradition†teaches. He REINFORCED that “Old†Covenant and made it even GREATER than Moses did, just EXACTLY like He told Jeremiah He would do: that He would write His Commandments on our heart, instead of on stone. This IS the re-newed covenant. And one of the prophecies of the Messiah (Jesus) is that He would be THE GREATEST TORAH TEACHER ON EARTH. And He most certainly was! The Last Supper WAS the Passover Seder. Do you not realize that Passover is more “Christian†in meaning than “Jewish†on the basis that Christians believe that Yeshua is the Messiah while the Jews do not?

Since the commandments are now written on our hearts instead of on stone, people should be even more aware of them than the OC Jews were and therefore be even more diligent to obey them.

The Passover lamb of the OC prefigured the NC Paschal Lamb. Jesus kept the traditions of His Fathers that He thought were important and He disregarded those that nullified His Father's commandments and He also disregarded some traditions when He deemed it necessary to disregard them.

Trivia question: since you have attended a Seder, which of the 4 cups of the Seder was He holding when He said He would not drink again until we are in the Kingdom with Him? Now, you DO realize that we will observe Passover and all the other Biblical Feasts in Kingdom, don’t you?

Answer to trivia question: The 4th Cup of Blessing.

Finally at the 14th step, the final blessing is made. After the verses from the holy Haggadah are made, the fourth cup of wine is blessed and consumed in a reclined position. Next, the Birkat HaMazon is recited once again. http://www.happypassover.net/passover-blessings.html

Matthew 26:29 (NKJV)
29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.â€

Jesus already drank the 4th Cup of blessing while He was hanging on the cross. He was reclining on the cross while they nailed Him to it and He was reclining on the cross when they removed Him from it.

John 19:28-30 NKJV
28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!†29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!†And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

The Old Covenant was fulfilled/finished and the New Covenant was begun/ratified at the exact time of Jesus' death.

Practicing Catholics, myself included, partake of the 4th Cup of Blessing at Mass every Sunday of the year in His kingdom as commanded by Jesus Christ.

We are living in His Father's kingdom right now because Jesus drank from this fruit of the vine when He was on the cross. He drank the wine shortly before He ratified His New Covenant by His death on the cross.

Luke 17:20-21 (NIV1984)
20 Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.â€

I'm living under Jesus' kingly reign right now. He is in heaven ruling over all from His throne. His Holy Spirit reigns in my heart/soul right now.

Luke 22:69 (NKJV)
69 Hereafter the Son of Man will sit on the right hand of the power of God.â€

Once again, the traditions of men and NOT the Word of God. For someone who was so gung-ho about being obedient to the commandments of the Lord, you have certainly changed your tune. These are YOUR words, are they not? So which is it JMJ?

Both.

Sins of omission and sins of commission can both be spiritually deadly and so both can prevent a person from entering into eternal life after death.

Examples of spiritually deadly sins of commission:

1 Corinthians 6:8-10 (NKJV)
8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Examples of spiritually deadly sins of omission:

Matthew 6:14-15 (NKJV)
14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

1 Timothy 5:8 (NKJV)
8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[nmwings]

You got my attention when you said about the altar being reestablished in Jerusalem. So what do you think I should know?

Since you got mad because I was telling you things you already know, perhaps you should bring me up to speed on what you do know. That way, I won't be redundant and there won't be any more "miscommunication."

 

[nmwings]

JMJ- I read all your replies, and it is my humble opinion that you have hardened your heart and you have no desire to learn... only argue. I just don't have the time nor do I desire to debate with you or anyone else. I am here only to pass on what I have learned. Granted, there are VERY few who want to learn, but if I can help just ONE person, it is worth it to me. But at this point in time, you aren't that person. So I humbly back out of your debate.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Justified by His Blood


All for whom Christ died scripture indicates that they are Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The word Justified is the greek word dikaioō and means:


to render righteous or such he ought to be

2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

So everyone Christ died for is declared Righteous before God, and their deliverance from God's Wrath is ensured, that is from His retributive wrath for their sins. They by the Blood of Christ [alone] are freed from the Law of sin and Death, in that God in Justice can never punish them for their sins again for Christ's Sake. Even when one who is covered by the Blood of the lamb, is born into this world as a by nature, child of wrath as others, they are never and can never be under God's vindictive and punitive wrath, for that could only be if Christ had not already satisfied all of God's Law and Justice on their behalf by His Cross ! Consequently, every ungodly sinner that is born into this world, whom Christ died for Rom 5:6, shed His Blood for, are already Justified from all things, and stand before God clothed in the perfect Righteousness of Christ, solely by Grace Rom 3:24; Yes in themselves deserving as others wrath and condemnation, but because of Christ, they are born into this world, even as ungodly sinners, Heirs of Eternal Glory !

 

[savedbygrace57]

If God Justifieth the Ungodly, then it is reasonable to conclude that God did Justify them, all for whom Christ died, before they had yet been given saving Faith, and while they were ungodly enemies ! Rom 4:5

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

The word ungodly here is the greek word asebēs and means:


destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious

Everyone Christ died for and Justified by His Blood[Rom 4:25], are being born into the world ungodly, but they are already Justified by Christ's Blood, if Christ did die for them !

Thats why Paul preaches that we is Justified freely by Grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, meaning His Death ! Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

[savedbygrace57]

Justified before God before and apart from Faith !


That all for whom Christ died, shed His Blood for, gave Himself for, that they are all Justified before God by it [His Blood] even as the blessed resurrection so declares it Rom 4:25: That this is the case is collaborated by the Truth of Rom 5:19b

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

That by the one obedience [active and passive] of ONE MAN ALONE [Jesus Christ] many SHALL be made Righteous, or as the Prophet Isaiah says it, He shall Justify many Isa 53:11

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Some Translate like this

ESV Isa 53:11

Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see[a] and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.

So it is by the obedience of ONE, shall many be declared Righteous or Justified. Now this comes about by only the obedience of One, and not Two, which would be the case if Faith by the believer is being considered, in that, that is also obedience, as in the obedience of Faith [believing] Rom 16:26

26 but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—

Also Rom 10:16-17

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?â€

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

These makes it clear that Faith is an act of obedience to the Gospel. Those who say Faith is not an act of obedience, are LIARS,plain and simple.

But according to the Truth of Rom 5:19b, many shall be made righteous, and that not by the obedience of Two, but one ! To deny this, debate it, is nothing but rejection of the Gospel Truth !

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Just shall live by Faith !


That those Christ died for are Justified before they believe, made Righteous or Just Rom 5:19

by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

That word righteous is the greek word dikaios and is translated Just 33 times, for instance here Rom 1:16-17


17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

So Rom 5:19 could actually read:

by the obedience of one shall many be made Just

The obedience here is His Death, by His obedience unto death [Phil 2:8] shall many be made Just !

Now, all those who are Just [Justified] by His Obedience, shall live by Faith in the future.

So clearly, being made Just or Justified, precedes living by Faith. This is Justification before God before Faith !

Gal 3:11

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Heb 10:38

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hab 2:4

Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Justified by Grace ! Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Justification is a gracious act of God, because of the redemption in Christ's Blood Eph 1:7 !

That even when unworthy in ourselves, and ungodly Rom 5:6; Rom 4:5, God does freely acquit us, that is all for whom Christ died, of all Transgressions of His Law, and accepts us into His Favour and declares us Righteous, with a Righteousness that has been freely imputed to us, even while we ourselves are in unbelief !

This free and gracious Justification of All for whom Christ died, will in God's time, will be revealed to each of them for whom He died and Justified, so they shall live by Faith !

Faith being not a condition, but a means of revealing or making known that Justification, that already exists in God's Mind, that is already credited to ones account, because of Christ's redemptive blood.