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Justified while Ungodly !

savedbygrace57 said:
Rom 4:4-5

4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

That those whom Christ died for are Justified before believing, which pleases God [Heb 11:6] is evident from the fact that God Justifieth the Ungodly ! The word Justify here is in the present tense, denoting He was or is Justifying the Ungodly, while they are or were The Ungodly. This is the same as when Paul taught that the elect were reconciled to God while yet enemies Rom 5:10 !

Now how can this be ? Because they are reconciled or Justified by Christ's Blood [ Rom 5:9] and or His Death [Rom 5:10] and this before they believe !
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Na-a-a dude that's heresy. God does not justify people and leave them in their unbelief. When God justifies an ungodly person He also changes that person to being Godly. 2Cor 5:17
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SBG:Those Christ died for, shed His Blood for are not Justified by their pleasing God, but by His Pleasing God in their behalf, for it is said of Him by the Father Matt 3:1

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Na-a-a man that's more heresy. Scripture is clear that Justification is by ~Faith~ Romans 4.. and without Faith it is impossible to please God. Heb 11:6
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SBG: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

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That's Matt 3:17 not 1.
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SBG: God Justifies the Ungodly,

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Well but He does not leave them in an ungodly condition. He transforms them into Godly people at the point of Justification. Justification occurs when a person believes the Gospel and Justification is never alone. It is always together with Regeneration which is the power of God in changing an ungodly person into a Godly one. Your doctrine gives us an unregenerate, unbeliever who is justified. That's foolishness.
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SBG: in that those Christ died for, shed His blood for, which blood Justified them before God, nevertheless they shall still be born as ungodly sinners as anyone else, but the Blood of Christ has always Justified them. To deny this Truth, is to deny the Gospel ![/Quote]

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That's not the gospel friend. That's a false gospel. Gal 1:6-9.

J.....
 
Na-a-a dude that's heresy. God does not justify people and leave them in
their unbelief.
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I did not state that. Scripture teaches that God Justified them while Ungodly !
 
savedbygrace57 said:
Rom 4:4-5

4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

That those whom Christ died for are Justified before believing, which pleases God [Heb 11:6] is evident from the fact that God Justifieth the Ungodly ! The word Justify here is in the present tense, denoting He was or is Justifying the Ungodly, while they are or were The Ungodly. This is the same as when Paul taught that the elect were reconciled to God while yet enemies Rom 5:10 !

Now how can this be ? Because they are reconciled or Justified by Christ's Blood [ Rom 5:9] and or His Death [Rom 5:10] and this before they believe !

Those Christ died for, shed His Blood for are not Justified by their pleasing God, but by His Pleasing God in their behalf, for it is said of Him by the Father Matt 3:1

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

God Justifies the Ungodly, in that those Christ died for, shed His blood for, which blood Justified them before God, nevertheless they shall still be born as ungodly sinners as anyone else, but the Blood of Christ has always Justified them. To deny this Truth, is to deny the Gospel !
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First: One MUST BE BORN AGAIN. Then & only then are they on their way! Acts 5:32 has a 100% yielded will to claim the FAITH of Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9! and what was Saul's (Paul to be) reply to Christ in Acts 9:6???:chin No surrender will have NO BORN AGAIN LIFE!! And is as D-E-A-D as James documents below!:sad (and what is far the worse is the sick example of one calling their denomination 'c'hristian while they are perhaps found in the large Broadway of Matt. 7?)

--Elijah

James 2
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (works of OBEDIENCE!)
 
Faith being not a condition !

Faith being not a condition, but a means of revealing or making known that Justification, that already exists in God's Mind, that is already credited to ones account, because of Christ's redemptive blood.

Justification by Faith is how God has ordained that the Justified ones find out about and realize their Justification freely given to them by God through Jesus Christ ! This is why it is written, the Just or Justified shall live by Faith, hence everyone Christ died for and shed His Blood for, are Justified before God because of it [Rom 5:9] they must be given Faith, a Fruit of the Spirit of God, to embrace and receive consciously that Peace with God, which Christ's redemptive blood accomplished for them as God's Elect, and so is so called " The Faith of God's Elect"

Those who take Justification by Faith [ Rom 5:1] and declare it to be a condition of man, that he must meet, in order to God to Justify them, they PERVERT the Truth of Justification by Grace and Faith, and do preach a false and accursed Gospel. That Justification is received by Faith, as it is revealed to the Justified one, we most heartily agree, but to state that it is a condition in order to get Justified before God, we reject as criminal and Apostate !
 
Faith is not the causative reason for one's Justification before God unless we are strictly speaking of Christ's Faith or Faithfulness, but rather it is the sense, or perception, and evidence of ones Justification [ Heb 11:1] for it is Christ's Righteousness as imputed that only Justifies before God, and this is revealed from Faith to Faith to heaven born Faith ! Faith is a spiritual grace or fruit [Gal 5:22] and enabling produced by the Holy Spirit of God that gives the redeemed sinner eyes to see in Christ a imputed Righteousness, now having by Him also convicted of our own sinfulness by nature, we do turn from our own Righteousness, and succumb to the Righteousness we have had revealed to us by the Gospel, provided by Christ Rom 1:16-17, hence the Spirit of God bears witness with our spirit that we are indeed Justified and do have peace with God through Jesus Christ, and do become evidentially as well as declaratively Justified by the Spirit of God 1 Cor 6:11. Now Faith reveals to the Elect sinner, their state in Christ, and their free gift of Righteousness through Him Rom 5:17-18

17For if by one man's offense death reigned by one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.

18Therefore as by the offense of one, judgment to condemnation came upon all men, even so by the righteousness of One, the free gift unto justification of life came upon all men.
 
God's Justification of His Elect is Twofold, it is first and foremost forensic and declarative of God's Mind, and then it is experimental or internal, fir then God causes the Justified to live like it by Faith, for the experimental comes by the New Birth. All those whom God Justifies judicially by the Blood of Christ and His Grace Alone per Rom 5:9;3:24 shall be Justified experimentally by the Spirit 1 Cor 6:11

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

This scripture confirms a first Justification by Christ, His Blood, or in His Name, followed by the Justification the Spirit accomplishes, which is also because of Christ's Name or in recognition of His Work ! Hence God gives grace for the living according to their Judicial status. That is why it is imperative that all for whom Christ died, must be born again Rom 5:19b

so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous [experimentally by New Birth].

In addition to making Christ's obedience the sole basis of forensic Justification, it is also the sole basis for constitutive righteousness which is brought to pass by New Birth !
 
savedbygrace57 said:
Rom 4:4-5

4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

That those whom Christ died for are Justified before believing, which pleases God [Heb 11:6] is evident from the fact that God Justifieth the Ungodly ! The word Justify here is in the present tense, denoting He was or is Justifying the Ungodly, while they are or were The Ungodly. This is the same as when Paul taught that the elect were reconciled to God while yet enemies Rom 5:10 !

Now how can this be ? Because they are reconciled or Justified by Christ's Blood [ Rom 5:9] and or His Death [Rom 5:10] and this before they believe !

Those Christ died for, shed His Blood for are not Justified by their pleasing God, but by His Pleasing God in their behalf, for it is said of Him by the Father Matt 3:1

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

God Justifies the Ungodly, in that those Christ died for, shed His blood for, which blood Justified them before God, nevertheless they shall still be born as ungodly sinners as anyone else, but the Blood of Christ has always Justified them. To deny this Truth, is to deny the Gospel !
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Your post says.. ' To deny this Truth, is to deny the Gospel ![/QUOTE]'

Yet, only on the Condition of 100% Total Surender is Salvation Promised!! Acts 5:32 is our decision alone to make, & then to follow through on! You best read Eccl. 3:14 & Rev. 22:18-19 for your STATEMENT for fact!:chin
Eccl. 3
[14] I know that, whatsoever God doeth, (or sayeth) it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: ...'

Rev. 22
[18] '... If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, ...'

It is one thing to say that I think such & such, and a very dangerous one to make yourself a 'g'od knowing that such & such is so!:sad And Rom. 8:14 has one LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT doing that??? 'i' do not 'think' so!
 
Sometimes disobedient

Titus 3:3

For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

Even though the Elect by Nature were disobedient, yet even then, Paul never classified them and neither were they ever " The children of disobedience" as per Eph 2:2

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

In the greek the children of disobedience reads "toiv uioiv thv apeiqeiav;:

The definite article makes it clear that these are a definite group of people, they are the vessels of wrath Paul writes on in Rom 9:22. In other words, the children of disobedience will always be the children of disobedience !

The Elect, even though by Nature are children of wrath as others, and walk according to the prince of the power of the air, yet they have already been accepted or Highly Favored in the Beloved Eph 1:6

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Yes, they have that status before God, by Grace, prior to their actual quickening in the Time state Eph 2:5

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )

The difference, the Elect, because of Christ's obedience, they shall be made Righteous ! Rom 5:19 and this is done by their New Birth by the Spirit, which causes their obedience to the Truth 1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Belief of the Truth and obedience are the same !
 
savedbygrace57 said:
Sometimes disobedient

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Belief of the Truth and obedience are the same !
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Now don't let the scripture get in the way of you distortion of the word. You just write it how you wnt to interpret it.
2Th 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming,
2Th 2:9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.

Your interpretation they never received it because God didn't like them. Word says that they did not receive the love of the truth ie THEY REJECTED IT!

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
2Th 2:12 so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brothers beloved of the Lord, because God has from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,
2Th 2:14 to which He called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 2:15 Therefore, my brothers, stand fast and hold the teachings which you have been taught, whether by word or by our letter.
2Th 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God, even our Father, who has loved us and has given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
2Th 2:17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and
work.
Oh no there goes God using that work word in relation to saints being established in their maturity with God.



John O
 
Faith believes on Him that Justifieth the ungodly. That is God given faith receives the Divine Testimony that God Justified His People solely upon Christ's death per Rom 8:33-34, and not on account of any works or conditions performed by men, but while they were being ungodly and enemies in themselves, God was justifying them by the death of His Son ! Also God imputes righteousness to all for whom Christ died or was made sin for 2 Cor 5:21; Rom 5:19 without works, this is testified Rom 4:6

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Now without works means without believing, for believing is a work performed by the mind of man. The word works ergon means:

business, employment, that which any one is occupied

a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking

2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

So now if God imputes Righteousness because one did believe a testimony, then Rom 4:6 cannot be true ! If God justifies any sinner or accounts them righteous because of believing, then He is responding to good, virtuous dispositions within him the man, which cannot be if He is Justifying the Ungodly. Ungodly means:

destitute of reverential awe towards God, condemning God, impious

For Paul writes 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

And this fact of accomplishment s received by God given Faith !
 
savedbygrace57 said:
d

So now if God imputes Righteousness because one did believe a testimony, then Rom 4:6 cannot be true ! If God justifies any sinner or accounts them righteous because of believing, then He is responding to good, virtuous dispositions within him the man, which cannot be if He is Justifying the Ungodly.
And this fact of accomplishment s received by God given Faith !
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That record got stuck again. I wonder in all the years you have been on this forum do you have anything else to say because we all know your view on this process but is that all you have to say about the grace and mercy of God. Sad life I think!

John O
 
It is God who Justifies !


Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Now who shall lay anything to the charge[Against] of God's Elect ? It is God that Justifieth [declares righteous]

Quite frankly here, the non charge by God regarding His Elect, is their Justification !

Nothing of the Elect's performance is regarded in the matter. Now who are those whom God will not lay charges against ? Quite frankly it is for all those Christ died, which reasonably means, the charges that should have been laid or charged against them, were laid or charged upon Him, leaving them Justified by God !

God did not lay iniquity upon them, but upon Him Isa 53:6

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid[or charged or to strike] on him the iniquity of us all.
 
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savedbygrace57 said:
It is God who Justifies !
Quite frankly it is for all those Christ died, which reasonably means, the charges that should have been laid or charged against them, were laid or charged upon Him, leaving them Justified by God !
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For the saved in Christ I would agree. Christ paid the price that we can not. We are justified righteous by our faith in the work of Christ, not in any work we think we do. ....I think that's your point.

John O said:
Christ died for all.

John O
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John O, when you say Christ died for all, what exactly do you mean? In Christianity, Universalism often refers to the beliefs that all humans either may or will be saved through Jesus Christ and eventually come to harmony in God's kingdom. Universalist would say that Christ died for all, as you have stated there. Are you a Universalist, or do you mean something else?

Thous of Arminius-theological views, to include the RCC, (Which makes me wonder how it is we have Armenian protestants) would say that Christ death was for all, but it's conditional on the act of the individual to accept or decline the offer. Is that what you mean when you say Christ died for all?

I'd like to pose three possibilities of the scope of justification, and anyone can answer.
Justified by Faith?
Justified by Grace?
Justified by Works?
Which one, only one. What I mean is, pick the best one of the three if you can only pick one.
 
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danus

For the saved in Christ I would agree.
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Thats what Christ does for them He died for, it saves them !

We are justified righteous by our faith in the work of Christ
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Thats error ! A Person is Justified by the Blood of Christ[Rom 5:9] way before they have Faith to embrace it.

All for whom Christ died, their sins having been laid to His Charge, when He arose from the Dead, it was an evidence of God having Justifed them Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.
 
savedbygrace57 said:
danus



Thats what Christ does for them He died for, it saves them !



Thats error ! A Person is Justified by the Blood of Christ[Rom 5:9] way before they have Faith to embrace it.

All for whom Christ died, their sins having been laid to His Charge, when He arose from the Dead, it was an evidence of God having Justifed them Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.
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So those without faith are justified? No faith in Christ = justified?
 
So those without faith are justified?
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Sure if Christ died for them, they are Justified by His Blood ! Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
 
That Jesus died once for all, is clear in scripture


Romans 6:
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But Romans Goes on to tell us that WE must access that grace through FAITH...and without faith there is NO Salvation

Romans 10:
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.†12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

And THEN we are called to a Holy Walk

Romans 12:12 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.


So while Jesus died for all, not all receive salvation, only those who believe and diligently seek Him

Hebrews 11
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

To the proud, there is no Grace

James 4
6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.â€[c]
Humility Cures Worldliness

7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.
 
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