lest ye should be wise in your own conceits...

[jasoncran]

uhm that is a reference to the jewish wedding. jesus came to marry a new "body" , believe now and be part of that. so it will go down like this. paul's grandpa a benjaminite. wont be allowed to be wed to Christ and yet will be with whom and where? on earth or in limbo? job, moses,mary and the jews then taught(Pharisees) that the last day would have a body with to see the YHWH. job mentioned and job was a gentile.

the marriage feast is a metaphor. its to show that we are married to him when its sealed. not a literal statement. just as jesus is a king but doesn't sit on a throne literally. we can only relate to what we know and see. ie how does jesus wept for our hurts and also AT the same with someone else be with them and rejoice? kinda makes him very psychotic. those means that he can understand us and feels with us but it fails as an analogy.

john believed jesus was the messiah that means he was a Christian! he may have died before the cross but then again so did that thief. john 3:16 was applicable the moment jesus said it. believe him NOW and you have it!

 

[Eventide]

Anyone,

It's fine with me if you'd like to believe that the church of God is Israel... I don't have a problem with that.

What I would have a problem with is that NOW you have to show what Paul is warning the church about in Romans 11...

IOW, if you believe that the church is Israel, then explain the mystery pertaining to Israel and why ignoring it will result in becoming wise in your own conceits.

Is that too much to ask ?

IOW, validate your belief and show us how that works within the context of Romans 11.

LIKE THIS...

I believe that Romans 11:25-29 is saying exactly what Paul says that it is saying... that ISRAEL (the only nation on earth that is not GENTILE) is blinded in part until the fulness of the GENTILES be come in.

IGNORING this simple biblical fact will result in your becoming wise in your own conceits.

See how easy it is.

So, if you happen to believe that the church is Israel... that's ok, just tell us how Romans 11 works in that context.. ie, ignoring what will result in your becoming wise in your own conceits.

 

[reba]

IMO the answer is simple

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[Eventide]

IMO the answer is simple

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

I'm glad you think that it's simple. I like simple, I'm simple lol..

Although that doesn't explain HOW IGNORING this will make a person wise in their own conceits.. would you like to explain that ?

 

[reba]

That is not ignoring it. we are just going to see some things differently..

 

[George Muller]

Now, everyone feel free to teach us what Paul IS teaching here in Romans 11, if you do not accept it at its face value... ie, just as it is written.

Some people have come in and argued without even addressing the scripture lol ?

I think that almost every post has been directed to the scripture. "All Israel will be saved" is Very relevant to the scripture. So if one does not know or agree on who Paul is referring to as "Israel" how can one comment without making that clear?
In the context of the scripture, who is "Israel" is the first question.

That is an honest point that will sure get the title "straw-man" at some point, if it conflicts with the OP position? Lets also look at the surrounding context and the CLEAR condition placed just before the scripture that is being presented as to be taken in its most literal sense. We also know that the word "all" is used through out scriptures to describe "all" that meet the biblical standard, such as Christ died for "all", which is true, but does not mean that "all" will accept His death and His Blood.

Ro 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Ro 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, The word "all" pas in Greek has many translations including; all, any, every, the whole:--all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

Ro 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Same Greek word "pas" with a conditional element. just as Paul describes in verse 23

 

[Eventide]

That is not ignoring it. we are just going to see some things differently..

Here's a simple example to try and show what I mean.

You believe that the church is Israel... ok, so let's plug that into Romans 11:25-29, like this...

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to THE CHURCH, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all THE CHURCH shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them (THE CHURCH), when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they (THE CHURCH) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they (THE CHURCH) are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

That's all I was asking...

Now, does it work ? Does it make sense ?

 

[jasoncran]

yes, I see isreal way way different then most here. jews are like Christians they have a ton of sects. I should ask the Chassidic jews if they even have a leadership in Jerusalem.

 

[Eventide]

EARTHLY things... and HEAVENLY things...

That is not ignoring it. we are just going to see some things differently..

Here's a simple example to try and show what I mean.

You believe that the church is Israel... ok, so let's plug that into Romans 11:25-29, like this...

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to THE CHURCH, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all THE CHURCH shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them (THE CHURCH), when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they (THE CHURCH) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they (THE CHURCH) are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

That's all I was asking...

Now, does it work ? Does it make sense ?

IMO the above example makes no sense at all...

It makes no sense that the church and Israel are the same in Paul's writings here.. because they're not the same.

ISRAEL is an EARTHLY entity under the dispensation of the LAW and Prophets..

The CHURCH is a HEAVENLY entity under the dispensation of the GRACE of God..

For the LAW was given by Moses but GRACE and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ.

 

[Eventide]

ISRAEL has been CUT OFF from the ROOT (Christ) and their house has been left desolate... this was after their continued rejection of the gospel of God's Son which was given to them FIRST...

This is why the APOSTLE to the GENTILES was raised up... to take the gospel of God's Son to the ends of the EARTH while Israel remains cut off and blinded in part..

Their partial blindness will last only UNTIL the fulness of the GENTILES be come in... this will be when CHRIST has FINISHED building His church which is based upon the confession of Jesus of Nazareth as LORD and Christ... something which Israel has not yet done...

But they will, in that DAY, the Day of the LORD, the Day of Jesus Christ... which shall come as a thief in the NIGHT and as travail upon a woman with child..

 

[reba]

Re: EARTHLY things... and HEAVENLY things...

It makes no sense that the church and Israel are the same in Paul's writings here.. because they're not the same.

ISRAEL is an EARTHLY entity under the dispensation of the LAW and Prophets..

are we not earthily under the law before salvation

The CHURCH is a HEAVENLY entity under the dispensation of the GRACE of God..

And the Church is in heaven now?

For the LAW was given by Moses but GRACE and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ.

The OT guys had Grace.

We are welcome to disagree ... I must stop responding and put the mod hat on...

 

[jasoncran]

wow.@ eventide.

ISRAEL is an EARTHLY entity under the dispensation of the LAW and Prophets..

so the blood cant work anymore? dangerous position. I bet you thought I was wrong when I spoke of this!. the nation of isreal practice the torah once again and uses that to be the light? the man paul says the priesthood of Christ is superior to aaron. the Aaronic priesthood cant come back! its not meant to be greater the the sun who gave its shadow. the sun being the Son of God.

that is why I said I am no longer a futurist. I have studied the torah and that is why I say what I said.

 

[jasoncran]

Re: EARTHLY things... and HEAVENLY things...

are we not earthily under the law before salvation



And the Church is in heaven now?

For the LAW was given by Moses but GRACE and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ.

The OT guys had Grace.

We are welcome to disagree ... I must stop responding and put the mod hat on...

in the torah, the book of genesis.

genesis 6:10.

but noah found GRACE in the eyes of the LORD

its the only time grace is used in that context. I often quote the Talmud on that and how the jews see grace as it not a simple God riches at Christ expense. but rather a favor that one has with a king to be able enter the throne to petition him! doesn't paul teach that in HEBREWS?! sure the Talmud has that jewish legalistic view of it but that is really what grace is! you have been given favor to be allowed to enter the throne room to ask the KING!

 

[Eventide]

Re: EARTHLY things... and HEAVENLY things...

are we not earthily under the law before salvation

Absolutely... although most of us are GENTILES... if you believe that you're of Israel, can you tell me which of the twelve tribes you belong to ?

And the Church is in heaven now?

Positionally yes, we are seated in HEAVENLY places in Christ Jesus... and not only that, we are to set our affections on the things ABOVE, and not on the things on EARTH, for YE ARE DEAD and your life is hid in Christ with God.

For the LAW was given by Moses but GRACE and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ.

The OT guys had Grace.

We are welcome to disagree ... I must stop responding and put the mod hat on...

No doubt about it.

Why's that..? I find no issue with disagreeing... and I'm simply stating my case that the church is not Israel..

Does that offend you ?

This is one way to 'see' where folks are coming from with respect to Paul warning the Christian church of being ignorant lest we become wise in our own conceits.

 

[jasoncran]

uhm so the nation of isreal today isn't really a jewish state? after all no jew is really 100% certain that he or she is a jew with that logic.none knows the tribe they are from. I don't and I can trace my family back almost 150 years to Russia, and maybe even farther back.

 

[Eventide]

Anyone else ?

Would anyone care to share their thoughts on what Paul is warning Christians against in Romans 11:25-29 ?

AND, if you believe that ISRAEL is different from its biblical perspective (ie, the TWELVE TRIBES/SONS of JACOB), then please indicate that and then plug that into Romans 11:25-29, as I have done on a couple of occasions thus far.

Great stuff, would love to hear more on this mystery which has serious consequences of ignoring.

 

[Eugene]

Would anyone care to share their thoughts on what Paul is warning Christians against in Romans 11:25-29 ?

I would ask what conceits Israel have? Is it not their works of the law producing praise of themselves instead of God? Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Excerpt from Grace & Glory
The Apostle lets us into a secret, "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" - 11:25. This verse is very little understood, though it appears so simple. The meaning is that there is a remnant from Jews and Gentiles gathered in this age - the Body of Christ, or the Church, as they are called. When that determined number is made up, then Israel's blindness as a nation will begin to be lifted. The veil over their eyes will be taken away. All nations will share in their blessings. Only a few, comparatively speaking, are taken out from among them for the Name of Christ; but when the nation, Israel, will be the light of the world, then as the prophet assures them, "The Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising" - Isaiah 60:3. The nation is still "beloved for the fathers' sakes" - 11:28. "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" - 11:26 - because God made a covenant to this effect with Abraham, and confirmed it to Isaac and Jacob. "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" - 11:29. "Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee - Isaiah 49:15.

 

[Deborah13]

Anyone else ?

Would anyone care to share their thoughts on what Paul is warning Christians against in Romans 11:25-29 ?

AND, if you believe that ISRAEL is different from its biblical perspective (ie, the TWELVE TRIBES/SONS of JACOB), then please indicate that and then plug that into Romans 11:25-29, as I have done on a couple of occasions thus far.

Great stuff, would love to hear more on this mystery which has serious consequences of ignoring.

No one said that very time Paul says the word 'Israel" he really means the CHURCH. You have to read in context, just like everything else. Sheesh
So you asked a question about how I saw Israel and to explain. I did and got No response from you. So I am going to repeat what I said. And add that to my response about conceit....

post #90
Who do you see as the 'olive tree'?

I see the olive tree as 'Abraham'. Those of the 'nation of Israel' (either cut off, still attached, or grafted back in) and all other peoples as being (grafted in, or cut off) AS the Branches.

Those who have been grafted into the Olive Tree must not be conceited. If the nation of Israel was cut off so we (Gentile) could be grafted in, they (Jews) can be grafted back in and we (Gentiles) could be cut off. We and they are the Branches of the Olive Tree which is the Church the Messianic body of Christ. So there is no difference Jew or Gentile, in Christ, in salvation.

It's Not the nation of Israel and the Church. It's Jew and Gentile in the Church. = Christians

They no longer have a special standing just because of who they are. They too must come through the narrow gate.
The scripture says that it is when they read the Torah, that the veil falls over their eyes. They are not all blinded, and I'm not even sure they still are. Paul said the Church had spread across the world in his time. If you want the scriptures for that I'll find them. It is all relative. As the world has grown there are more and more peoples and places to reach. But have they been blind all these 2000 yrs.? Some. Not all.
We are suppose to be making them jealous, so they will want what we have. We are suppose to make them see Jesus and a faith filled, obedient life. hmmm...

reba, really said it so plain and simple.

 

[Eventide]

I would ask what conceits Israel have? Is it not their works of the law producing praise of themselves instead of God? Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Eugene, it's not about Israel being conceited, it's about the church of God being wise in their own conceits. This is written to the church of God at Rome. Paul is certainly speaking of Israel although he is speaking to Christians.

Excerpt from Grace & Glory
The Apostle lets us into a secret, "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" - 11:25. This verse is very little understood, though it appears so simple. The meaning is that there is a remnant from Jews and Gentiles gathered in this age - the Body of Christ, or the Church, as they are called. When that determined number is made up, then Israel's blindness as a nation will begin to be lifted. The veil over their eyes will be taken away. All nations will share in their blessings. Only a few, comparatively speaking, are taken out from among them for the Name of Christ; but when the nation, Israel, will be the light of the world, then as the prophet assures them, "The Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising" - Isaiah 60:3. The nation is still "beloved for the fathers' sakes" - 11:28. "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" - 11:26 - because God made a covenant to this effect with Abraham, and confirmed it to Isaac and Jacob. "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" - 11:29. "Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee - Isaiah 49:15.

As for this, I'd say it's right on.

 

[Eventide]

No one said that very time Paul says the word 'Israel" he really means the CHURCH. You have to read in context, just like everything else. Sheesh

Deb, I was simply using Reba's example... not yours.

So you asked a question about how I saw Israel and to explain. I did and got No response from you.

Sorry Deb, I must have missed.

So I am going to repeat what I said. And add that to my response about conceit....

post #90
Who do you see as the 'olive tree'?

Deb, I'll go a little further since you had to do this again.. I always need to read this and I often forget who is who here..

ROOT = Christ (Father is the Dresser, He is the Vine, we are the branches)
Wild Olive Tree = Gentiles by nature
Good Olive Tree = Goodness of God

This may seem a little confusing although think about the fact that the church of God is NOT grafted into Israel (they're cut off), the church of God is IN CHRIST, who is the ROOT.

I see the olive tree as 'Abraham'. Those of the 'nation of Israel' (either cut off, still attached, or grafted back in) and all other peoples as being (grafted in, or cut off) AS the Branches.

This could very well be right... I always think of it as the goodness of God because Paul mentions His goodness. We know for a fact that He is the root and the offspring of
david, and He is the vine and we are the branches.

Those who have been grafted into the Olive Tree must not be conceited. If the nation of Israel was cut off so we (Gentile) could be grafted in, they (Jews) can be grafted back in and we (Gentiles) could be cut off. We and they are the Branches of the Olive Tree which is the Church the Messianic body of Christ. So there is no difference Jew or Gentile, in Christ, in salvation.

That's pretty much how I see it.. we should never boast in these things and yet many do today, and many reject the salvation of that nation in the end.. which imo is a crystal clear biblical fact.

It's Not the nation of Israel and the Church. It's Jew and Gentile in the Church. = Christians

Not sure what you mean by this... the nation of Israel is important, and Paul is making this clear even though they are cut off at the time.

They no longer have a special standing just because of who they are. They too must come through the narrow gate.

True and False imo... Jews today must come to Christ... but the multitudes before Christ who WERE justified by their faith are in perfect standing with God.

The scripture says that it is when they read the Torah, that the veil falls over their eyes. They are not all blinded, and I'm not even sure they still are. Paul said the Church had spread across the world in his time. If you want the scriptures for that I'll find them. It is all relative. As the world has grown there are more and more peoples and places to reach. But have they been blind all these 2000 yrs.? Some. Not all.
We are suppose to be making them jealous, so they will want what we have. We are suppose to make them see Jesus and a faith filled, obedient life. hmmm...

That's right, we need to remember that they (the nation of Israel, the only nation that is NOT Gentile) is blinded in part and cut off from Christ.. IMO this is the leadership of that nation moreso than it is the people themselves.. because they are the ones who ultimately rejected Christ as the leaders of Israel.

reba, really said it so plain and simple.

Then I would need to rethink everything here that you said, because if I'm not mistaken, Reba believes that the church of God is Israel... and it's not.