lest ye should be wise in your own conceits...

[George Muller]

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, The word "all" pas in Greek has many translations including; all, any, every, the whole:--all (manner of, means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

Ro 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Same Greek word "pas" with a conditional element. just as Paul describes in verse 23

Context proves that this is a conditional statement, ignore the context of the text and one is left with a "con" a "straw-man" so to say.

 

[Eventide]

I thought for sure that this post and scripture from Matthew's gospel would bring all kinds of discussion to the table... was I wrong... not even a mention.... and it's one of the most staggering things I've ever read in the bible, concerning the REGENERATION.

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Point blank statement from the LORD Himself concerning Israel in the REGENERATION.

 

[Eventide]

Then of course we have the Revelation as well showing us all twelve tribes...

For some reason, many people just can't deal with simple biblical facts concerning Israel.

 

[Eventide]

We haven't even touched thematic study yet... but I'll bet you know the story which tells the story... even though there are many, perhaps the most obvious is Joseph in Genesis...

Did Joseph destroy his brethren in the end (as so many teach today) or did he reveal himself to them in their deepest time of need..?

We all know the story, and it told the story centuries ago.

 

[reba]

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

A stolen line stolen again ...It's not complicated

 

[Deborah13]

Then I would need to rethink everything here that you said, because if I'm not mistaken, Reba believes that the church of God is Israel... and it's not.

I don't think she means the actual nation Israel that is in the state of Israel today?

I too believe what Paul says when He says. Not all those of Israel are Israel. The true Israel, God's Israel are His people, (by Abraham, thy seed shall by called) who is this Seed, not as many, but one seed and that Seed is Christ. Therefore, the recipient of the promise.

Thanks for responding, I didn't mean to be snippy with you.

Yes, I agree, Jesus is the vine.

I'll look at the Olive Trees again, too. But right now that's the way I see them. One cultivated by God (husbandman) and one not.

True and False imo... Jews today must come to Christ... but the multitudes before Christ who WERE justified by their faith are in perfect standing with God.

I agree, of coarse. Abraham was justified by his faith in God just the same as we are today. I believe that all peoples have been always been justified by faith.
Not all those of the genetics of Abraham were justified then or now.
If you think about it, you answered your own question by what you said. Those before Christ were justified by their faith. Did God say All those of the tribes of Israel were saved. Didn't He say, He has a remnant of the tribes.
The promises were made to Abraham and his seed. That seed is Christ. Before the cross they were saved by faith in what they knew of the one true God. The Law and the Prophets bore witness to the coming Messiah.

I heard a pastor say (not in the USA), that when a group from their church goes to Israel (at least once a yr.) he tells them, do not dicker on the price of what you buy, just pay it. He had found that several times the Jewish people would say something about the money they would spend. He told them if something is said to them just say, "Your God has blessed me." The pastor is hoping that they will think about that, why does God bless the Christians? And be moved by that.
Faithful Jews have the same God but they just don't know Jesus was God come in the flesh and raised from the dead. They don't know in their hearts.

Sorry didn't mean to ramble. This is just how I see it. I'm sure I have some holes in my thinking on this.

Blessing to you

 

[Eventide]

Deb,

No problem ramblin, I do it all the time. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Eventide]

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

A stolen line stolen again ...It's not complicated

I always get a chuckle out of it.

Now of course we know this is true for any member of the body of Christ... just as any member of the body Christ should know to not give offense, neither to the Jews, or the Gentiles, or to the church of God.

 

[Deborah13]

True and False imo... Jews today must come to Christ... but the multitudes before Christ who WERE justified by their faith are in perfect standing with God.

I only post again to this because of my own sloppiness. Sorry.

Romans 9 KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Both Ishmael and Isaac were the sons of Abraham. One born of the flesh. Isaac born of faith.
Jacob was chosen by God not Esau. From the sons of Jacob can the 12 tribes who became the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah. And so it went for generation. Some through faith became the children of God, that remnant.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So we see that the Israel of God are those chosen by God to come to Him by faith.

 

[reba]

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION] ever notice how often the 'birthright' went from the first to the second?

 

[Deborah13]

@Deborah13 ever notice how often the 'birthright' went from the first to the second?

Yes, that hit me here just a little while ago.
Isaac loved Esau, he feed his flesh. Esau gave up his birthright to feed his flesh.

Rebecca loved Jacob. By her faith she believed God about Jacob (the older shall service the younger) and she acted on it by faith.

I not sure there isn't an understanding here to as to the covenants. Law and Grace. Works and Faith.

 

[Sinthesis]

@Deborah13 ever notice how often the 'birthright' went from the first to the second?

Yes, that hit me here just a little while ago.
Isaac loved Esau, he feed his flesh. Esau gave up his birthright to feed his flesh.

Rebecca loved Jacob. By her faith she believed God about Jacob (the older shall service the younger) and she acted on it by faith.

I not sure there isn't an understanding here to as to the covenants. Law and Grace. Works and Faith.

There is. Keep that idea in mind whenever you come across a 'pair' in scripture. This even applies to Jacob/Israel as one person with a 'pair' of names. Israel is just a name meaning 'God Prevails', and this name can be applied to many people(s) or things to contrast it with another.

 

[jasoncran]

Then I would need to rethink everything here that you said, because if I'm not mistaken, Reba believes that the church of God is Israel... and it's not.

I don't think she means the actual nation Israel that is in the state of Israel today?

I too believe what Paul says when He says. Not all those of Israel are Israel. The true Israel, God's Israel are His people, (by Abraham, thy seed shall by called) who is this Seed, not as many, but one seed and that Seed is Christ. Therefore, the recipient of the promise.

Thanks for responding, I didn't mean to be snippy with you.

Yes, I agree, Jesus is the vine.

I'll look at the Olive Trees again, too. But right now that's the way I see them. One cultivated by God (husbandman) and one not.

True and False imo... Jews today must come to Christ... but the multitudes before Christ who WERE justified by their faith are in perfect standing with God.

I agree, of coarse. Abraham was justified by his faith in God just the same as we are today. I believe that all peoples have been always been justified by faith.
Not all those of the genetics of Abraham were justified then or now.
If you think about it, you answered your own question by what you said. Those before Christ were justified by their faith. Did God say All those of the tribes of Israel were saved. Didn't He say, He has a remnant of the tribes.
The promises were made to Abraham and his seed. That seed is Christ. Before the cross they were saved by faith in what they knew of the one true God. The Law and the Prophets bore witness to the coming Messiah.

I heard a pastor say (not in the USA), that when a group from their church goes to Israel (at least once a yr.) he tells them, do not dicker on the price of what you buy, just pay it. He had found that several times the Jewish people would say something about the money they would spend. He told them if something is said to them just say, "Your God has blessed me." The pastor is hoping that they will think about that, why does God bless the Christians? And be moved by that.
Faithful Jews have the same God but they just don't know Jesus was God come in the flesh and raised from the dead. They don't know in their hearts.

Sorry didn't mean to ramble. This is just how I see it. I'm sure I have some holes in my thinking on this.

Blessing to you

the way they describe YHWH and what he is a bit different then what we say. most jews these days are rather new age like. at least the ones I talk too. the chassidics are the largest group but I haven't talked a lot of them to be sure on what they say.

 

[Eventide]

The just shall live by faith...

So we see that the Israel of God are those chosen by God to come to Him by faith.

Deb, I enjoyed your entire post and think that it's pretty much the way I see the scriptures... until I read this last line.

It seems backwards to me.

IOW, those who do believe and have faith are chosen by God.

Abraham is our prime example and of course we are told that he believed God, and it was counted to him for righteouesness. THEN we're told that Abraham was given the SIGN of circumcision which is the SEAL of FAITH, the faith which he had BEFORE he was circumcised.

Sorry if this is nitpickin but as mentioned, it just sounds as if it's worded backwards.

 

[George Muller]

I thought for sure that this post and scripture from Matthew's gospel would bring all kinds of discussion to the table... was I wrong... not even a mention.... and it's one of the most staggering things I've ever read in the bible, concerning the REGENERATION.

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Point blank statement from the LORD Himself concerning Israel in the REGENERATION.

I think you should do some word study on the term "regeneration" Because this term is for those who continue in the Word of Christ and are washed unto "regeneration" by His Word, just as the context of these scripture show, that in that they have forsaken the things of this world to follow Him, they will be rewarded for that obedience and brought to "regeneration". Its really amazing that some are so unlearned in basic biblical terms, yet seek to teach others?

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[Elijah674]

I thought for sure that this post and scripture from Matthew's gospel would bring all kinds of discussion to the table... was I wrong... not even a mention.... and it's one of the most staggering things I've ever read in the bible, concerning the REGENERATION.

Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Point blank statement from the LORD Himself concerning Israel in the REGENERATION.

I think you should do some word study on the term "regeneration" Because this term is for those who continue in the Word of Christ and are washed unto "regeneration" by His Word, just as the context of these scripture show, that in that they have forsaken the things of this world to follow Him, they will be rewarded for that obedience and brought to "regeneration". Its really amazing that some are so unlearned in basic biblical terms, yet seek to teach others?

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Again... some might read Rom. 2 for who are Spiritual Israel today? (compare Rom. 2:28-29)

--Elijah

 

[Eventide]

THEN... shall He sit upon the throne of His glory...

We have a perfect biblical connection to when the regeneration shall be in that it also speaks of The Lord Jesus Christ sitting in the throne of His glory at that time...

Matthew 25 teaches us precisely when The Lord Jesus Christ shall sit upon the throne of His glory... and not only that, but when His kingdom shall come.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

....

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

Certainly some of the most staggering things which shall be hereafter, in that Day, at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Deborah13]

Re: The just shall live by faith...

IOW, those who do believe and have faith are chosen by God.

I think, turning it around is fine, too.
I don't want to get off topic. But I'm just say that I believe God's will is that all men have saving faith, in Him.

 

[Eventide]

Re: The just shall live by faith...

 

[George Muller]

Re: THEN... shall He sit upon the throne of His glory...

We have a perfect biblical connection to when the regeneration shall be in that it also speaks of The Lord Jesus Christ sitting in the throne of His glory at that time...

Matthew 25 teaches us precisely when The Lord Jesus Christ shall sit upon the throne of His glory... and not only that, but when His kingdom shall come.

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

....

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

Certainly some of the most staggering things which shall be hereafter, in that Day, at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

I think one has to ignore must scripture to take this view, especially when "regeneration" is an active term and work of the Holy Spirit unto the believer in this present age, not for some time later.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (present tense)