Limited Atonement - TULIP

[Free]

You going to have to do better than label with man made slurs.

Interesting that you want to call what Scripture says “man made slurs.” Paul teaches often that salvation is not by works:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

I have asked you to address the scripture I posted rather than just simply labeling me in a negative way.

Pointing out errors in doctrine is not labelling. I simply provided your words which contradict Scripture by teaching salvation by works, and you have yet to clarify your contradiction. And, I did address the scripture.

Yes he certainly does.


For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences. 2 Corinthians 5:10-11


Paul warned the Corinthians and the Galatians and the Ephesians.


Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

again

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

How does this address what you quoted?

I asked you this. -

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. Matthew 25:14

• who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.

Does his own servants refers to believers or unbelievers?

The wicked one is an unbeliever.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,

• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

You’re again teaching salvation by works and pitting Jesus against himself and against Paul.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The wicked one is an unbeliever.

No, all servants are believers. The wicked one is an unprofitable believer who has borne no spiritual fruit and made no contribution to the kingdom, as a result he'll receive no reward, but still be saved. Unbelivers are not saved, Jesus doesn't know them and wouldn't have called them servant.

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:12-15)

 

[Free]

Nonetheless, it's the judgement of NATIONS, a passport to heaven or not depends on how a nation has treated the Lord's disciples. It's spoken in a collective sense in regard to the sheep nations and goat nations.

No, nations aren’t saved or unsaved or judged at the final judgement, individuals are. How individual people—sheep and goats—treat those less fortunate—who may or may not be believers—is evidence of either having a saving faith or having none.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

No, nations aren’t saved or unsaved or judged at the final judgement, individuals are. How individual people—sheep and goats—treat those less fortunate—who may or may not be believers—is evidence of either having a saving faith or having none.

You're contradicting the Scripture. Jesus was addressing the nations, not individuals. In addition, the Lord's brethren is a separate group, they are the Lord's disciples, not "less fortunate" underdogs in general.

When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the NATIONS will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. (Matt. 24:31-32, NKJV)

 

[Free]

No, all servants are believers. The wicked one is an unprofitable believer who has borne no spiritual fruit and made no contribution to the kingdom, as a result he'll receive no reward, but still be saved. Unbelivers are not saved, Jesus doesn't know them and wouldn't have called them servant.

If he is wicked, he’s unsaved. Just like churches have people in them who think they’re saved but are not.

Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. (1 Cor. 3:12-15)

Keep the context correct:

Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (ESV)

That is certainly not what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 3:12-15.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If he is wicked, he’s unsaved. Just like churches have people in them who think they’re saved but are not.

If he's unsaved, he wouldn't have been a servant of the Lord in the first place. Salvation cannot be undone.

That is certainly not what Paul is talking about in 1 Cor. 3:12-15.

Yes it is. A worthless servant is an unprofitable servant whose work fails to pass the test of fire.

 

[Free]

If he's unsaved, he wouldn't have been a servant of the Lord in the first place. Salvation cannot be undone.

It shows where his heart was. Besides, you're contradicting what the story clearly states. If "Salvation cannot be undone," and I agree, then the wicked servant could not have been saved.

Yes it is. A worthless servant is an unprofitable servant whose work fails to pass the test of fire.

It certainly is not and I'm curious as to how you can possibly think it is when you look at the context and consider the language used.

Mat 25:21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here, I have made two talents more.’
Mat 25:23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’
Mat 25:26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed?
...
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (ESV)

First, notice that the first two servants were told to "enter into the joy of your master," that is, eternal life. Second, notice that the "wicked and slothful" and "worthless servant" is "cast . . . into the outer darkness" where "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Do you really think that speaks of heaven, of eternal life with God? Does that sound like he went to the same place as the first two servants?

Third, where else does the NT use such language as "outer darkness" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth"?

Mat 8:11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
Mat 8:12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (ESV)

Mat 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
Mat 13:42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
...
Mat 13:49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous
Mat 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (ESV)

Mat 22:11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment.
Mat 22:12 And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ (ESV)

(Notice that the man had even made it into the wedding hall.)

Mat 24:48 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’
Mat 24:49 and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards,
Mat 24:50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know
Mat 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (ESV)

(Again, another "wicked servant.")

Luk 13:27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’
Luk 13:28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. (ESV)

2Pe 2:17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved. (ESV)

Jud 1:13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever. (ESV)

Is that not rather the language of eternal punishment apart from God, which is the fate of unbelievers? It should go without saying, but it clearly is.


1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
1Co 3:13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
1Co 3:14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (ESV)

Notice that for believers, "If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved." They are still saved. Paul is absolutely not making the same point that Matthew (and other NT writers) was making. Paul is talking about believers only; Matthew about unbelievers. As you said, "Salvation cannot be undone."

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

First, notice that the first two servants were told to "enter into the joy of your master," that is, eternal life. Second, notice that the "wicked and slothful" and "worthless servant" is "cast . . . into the outer darkness" where "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Do you really think that speaks of heaven, of eternal life with God? Does that sound like he went to the same place as the first two servants?

No, but the difference is, the first two servants get to reign with Jesus in the millennial kingdom, the third doesn't. Again, "outer darkness" is not hell, but loss of reward, and "gnashing of teeth" is the expression of deep sadness and regret. An alternative version of this parable is told in Lk. 19:11-27, there's no mention of "outer darkness", the only verdict is loss of reward, as his portion is given to the first servant. A similar verdict is made in Lk. 12, where the wicked servant's portion is given to the unbelievers. In none of these teachings did Jesus declare that he's going down into the lake of fire being condemned for eternity.

But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. (Lk. 12:45-46)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

It shows where his heart was. Besides, you're contradicting what the story clearly states. If "Salvation cannot be undone," and I agree, then the wicked servant could not have been saved.

No, you're the one who's contradicting the scripture, and you don't really agree on the OSAS principle. If you do, you wouldn't have affirmed your preconceived conclusion, "the wicked servant could not have been saved", which directly contradicts Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 3:16. This corroborates Jesus's teachings that a wicked servant's portion will be taken away and given to others who deserve it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

(Notice that the man had even made it into the wedding hall.)

(Again, another "wicked servant.")

That's why he's a believer and a servant, otherwise he wouldn't have accepted the invitation in the first place. A wicked servant is still a servant, whom will punished according to his wickedness.

Is that not rather the language of eternal punishment apart from God, which is the fate of unbelievers? It should go without saying, but it clearly is.

This is not about believers and unbelievers, but Jews and Gentiles. "Sons of the kingdom" in Matt. 8:12 are referring to the prideful Jews who believed they were entitled to the kingdom of heaven. Back in the Torah, Abraham was "gathered to his people" in the afterlife (Gen. 25:8), same for Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Aaron, even Ishmael, and all Israelite kings, either good or evil, and Jews naturally assumed that they'd be joining Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all of their ancestors. But Jesus told them no, it's not their birthright as they thought, they'd be rejected, while faithful gentiles such as that Roman centurion will be accepted. That was the point of his teaching. Believers are among both Jews and Gentiles, unbelievers are among both Jews and Gentiles, the distinction is made between Jews and Gentiles, not believers and unbelievers.

Likewise, in the parable of the king's wedding, the initial guests who received but rejected the invitation are the Jews, then the king turned to the others from the highways and the byways, which are the Gentiles, that's the same message in Rom. 1:16 - "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek."

Notice that for believers, "If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved." They are still saved. Paul is absolutely not making the same point that Matthew (and other NT writers) was making. Paul is talking about believers only; Matthew about unbelievers. As you said, "Salvation cannot be undone."

Notice that Matthew was also talking about believers as much as Paul was writing to the Corinthian church. The parable of the talents, as a part of the Olivet Discourse, was preached to Jesus's own disciples, not any general crowd.

 

[JLB]

Interesting that you want to call what Scripture says “man made slurs.” Paul teaches often that salvation is not by works:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

Paul referred to the works of the law.

Paul is not referring to the obedience of faith.

Two entirely different things.

To understand the passage correctly one must see the context, and define the “works” being referred to.

The works of the law
The work that earns a wage
Good works
The work (action) of obedience; the obedience of faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

You and I agree that we can not do enough “good works” to gain salvation, because it is a gift of God; we only have to believe in order to be born again, saved regenerated.

Once we are in Christ, and are a new creation, empowered and led by the Spirit, God now expects us to do the good works He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

• For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

These “good works” we are to walk in are for the born again Christian to walk in as we are led by the Spirit.


If we as born again Christians refuse to walk in these “good works” then we are essentially “burying our talent” or being unfruitful.


And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful. Titus 3:14




JLB

 

[JLB]

The wicked one is an unbeliever.

I didn’t ask that.

I asked you this. -

“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. Matthew 25:14

• who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them.

Does his own servants refers to believers or unbelievers?

 

[Whatever]

I was hungry and you gave Me food;
I was thirsty and you gave Me drink;
I was a stranger and you took Me in;
I was naked and you clothed Me;
I was sick and you visited Me;
I was in prison and you came to Me.’

I wonder if Paul believes this?

Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness

 

[JLB]

You’re again teaching salvation by works and pitting Jesus against himself and against Paul.

Post 97 has only the words of scripture from Jesus.

Here it is again.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

These are not my words.

 

[JLB]

I wonder if Paul believes this?

Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness

Yes Paul taught exactly what Jesus taught as I have shown.

To understand the passage correctly one must see the context, and define the “works” being referred to.

The works of the law
The work that earns a wage
Good works
The work (action) of obedience; the obedience of faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

You and I agree that we can not do enough “good works” to gain salvation, because it is a gift of God; we only have to believe in order to be born again, saved regenerated.

Once we are in Christ, and are a new creation, empowered and led by the Spirit, God now expects us to do the good works He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

• For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

These “good works” we are to walk in are for the born again Christian to walk in as we are led by the Spirit.


If we as born again Christians refuse to walk in these “good works” then we are essentially “burying our talent” or being unfruitful.


And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful. Titus 3:14

 

[Whatever]

Once we are in Christ, and are a new creation, empowered and led by the Spirit, God now expects us to do the good works He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

I can agree with this. But the quote from Jesus made it sound like you have to live like Mother Theresa to get in.

In 30 years I have been to different Churches and have known nobody whether pastors, elders, deacons that spend all their time serving the poor, visiting prisons and so forth. They have all pretty much been as Paul says:

1 Thessalonians 4:11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,

Ephesians 4:28 Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.

They all have families and live in fairly nice houses, work in regular jobs, have bank accounts, life insurance, cars, and what not. Most tithe or give to keep the Church bills paid and the pastors salary. They will go visit sick Church members who are in the hospital.

 

[Whatever]

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Vincent's Word Studies noted: Note again the use of the different verbs for doing with good and evil.

The doing good = poieo (G4160) signifies (a) "to make," (b) "to do,"
The doing Evil = prasso (G4238) signifies "to practice,"

Generally speaking, in Paul's epistles poieo denotes "an action complete in itself,"
while prasso denotes "a habit."

In Rom_2:3 he who does, poieo, the things mentioned, is warned against judging those who practice them, prasso

Rom 2:3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?

Don't know if this makes any difference or not.

 

[JLB]

Vincent's Word Studies noted: Note again the use of the different verbs for doing with good and evil.

The doing good = poieo (G4160) signifies (a) "to make," (b) "to do,"
The doing Evil = prasso (G4238) signifies "to practice,"

Generally speaking, in Paul's epistles poieo denotes "an action complete in itself,"
while prasso denotes "a habit."

In Rom_2:3 he who does, poieo, the things mentioned, is warned against judging those who practice them, prasso

Rom 2:3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?

Don't know if this makes any difference or not.

Brother, the words are crystal clear.

Here is the passage and context from Romans 2 that Paul writes.

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:5-11

First and foremost Paul plainly states in plain language…

• For there is no partiality with God.

No partiality with God.

God doesn’t choose favorites that He decides to save and choose those for eternal destruction that He decides for His wrath.

No partiality with God.
No partiality between Jew (elect) and Gentile.

None.

That’s the nail in the coffin for Calvinism, Tulip, Reformed Theology and any other man made label you or anyone else decides to come up with.

Here is who Paul says eternal life is for:

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

This is exactly what Jesus Christ taught.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28


Now compare the words of Paul and the words of Jesus side by side.

Jesus -

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Paul -

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality




JLB

 

[Whatever]

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

In other words, God saves those who deserve it. There is no grace or undeserved favor.

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality

The words "going good" are one word in the Greek and guess what it means.
G2041 - ergon = From ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.

Now let's hear Paul a couple of chapters later:
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

The man is taken as he is and pardoned. “The whole Pauline gospel could be summed up in this one word - God who justifies the ungodly” (Denney).

You need to think about what you think the Bible is teaching. Is a person saved by grace:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 4 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Or does a person deserve it by working for it?

 

[Whatever]

Once we are in Christ, and are a new creation, empowered and led by the Spirit, God now expects us to do the good works He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

He doesn't expect us to do them.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

This word "works" is a totally different word than the one where we "work" or "do good."
energeō = to be active, efficient: - do, (be) effectual (fervent), be mighty in, shew forth self, work (effectually in).

God is the one who energizes us to will and to do what He wants us to do.