Many Scriptural proofs of man’s inherited sin nature

[Digger]

My point in this was that some Calvinists (I don't know if your Calvinistic or not) claim God hardened Pharaoh's heart directly against his will causing Pharaoh to disobey. If this was the case, then God need not do it for Pharaoh would have chosen to dsobey on his own with no help from God. This is why I need to know what you mean by "God set the stage for Pharoah to be inclined..." . Did God cause Pharaoh to be inclined to not let the people go?

If the scripture is read carefully one will see that Pharoah hardened his own heart before God hardened it. Also there are different Hebrew words used for "harden" and they mean different things.

Pharoah was stubborn in his rebellion and God strengthened Pharoah in his rebellion so that he could be used to demonstrate the power of God.

 

[reba]

A sinner showing a kindness to anyone does not make them 'right with God'. A simple act of 'goodness' does not negate the sin of Adam. Our righteousness is as filty rags. Cain was giving 'his' offering to God when he blew up and killed Able.
God's wonderful Spirit is still over the earth. The evilness of mankind is most often held in check.... If God lifts that Spirit covering man kind will look like all those creepy Hollywood movies.. or some of the bad guys in history..

 

[ivdavid]

If you have no problem with the word total in total depravity, then Cain would have only been able to choose to not do well. God would have been mistaken in giving Cain the option of doing well or telling Cain to 'rule over him (sin)' when that would have been impossible for Cain to do.

Why would God have been mistaken in commanding man to do what He expects as an ideal befitting Him even if it were impossible for man because of corruption that God did not cause? Does not God have His purposes in commanding so? Let's explore Scripture -

Compare Lev 18:5 with Gal 3:10-12. Therein you have God giving the options of receiving life by the righteousness of the law or receiving death by the transgression of the law. Is there any one created man who can receive life by the righteousness of the law? Why then does God give man such options? Isn't it to show forth His perfect standards of righteousness and justice and His attributes of grace, mercy and compassion? The law's purpose is to point man to Christ, through the realization that there is indeed a corrupt nature in him, not caused by God, that makes it impossible for him to live by the righteousness of the law but only by the righteousness of faith in Christ.

If he(pharaoh) had let the people go, that would have been obedience to God, something that is not possible for the totally depraved.

I'd written the following only to address this point. Is there anything here that you require me to elaborate on or clarify?

ivdavid - " Of course, you must not misconstrue God's will to only be limited to end results - He wills the entire path that each man must travel in accordance with His nature. So, just as the pharisees were deemed hypocrites even in their giving alms, the pharoah would be likewise found with an intent that transgresses God's law even if he had set the Israelites free [kindly differentiate between a good(beneficial) act being done to the recipient and a good(moral) act being done by the doer.] "

You posted "God set the stage for Pharoah to be inclined..." Are you saying God caused Pharaoh's inclination?

No, absolutely not. All sinful inclinations are caused by sin(1) in the flesh[the literal rendition of Romans 8:7] and sin(1) was not caused by God.

A crude illustration - one must not think that a pig is by nature clean just because there is no mud anywhere to roll on. Present the mud, and the pig expresses its true nature without any of us causing it to.

As to what I meant,
ivdavid - "God orchestrated the circumstances without refraining evil(not causing it though) - quite similar to 1Kings 22."

How do you see the events in 1Kings 22?

My point in this was that some Calvinists (I don't know if your Calvinistic or not) claim God hardened Pharaoh's heart directly against his will causing Pharaoh to disobey.

God never does anything against anyone's will and God definitely does not cause anyone to sin. God either permits one to continue sinning in the flesh according to that person's own corrupt self-will or He regenerates them and causes them both to will and to do according to His good pleasure. In the former case, man is permitted his own sinful self-will - in the latter case, God provides His own godly nature in His Spirit to incline man according to His will unto the things of God. In neither case, is man's will violated by God. All violation is done by sin - in that it corrupts that which is good itself - in order to show how exceedingly sinful sin really is.

And if by calvinistic, you mean a person who follows the teachings of Calvin or some variant of his followers because they said so - then no, I'm not a calvinist. On the other hand, if by calvinistic, you are referring to a certain set of beliefs that one holds as he has been led to understand Scripture - then as a referential term, you may call me a calvinist, though I'd simply prefer discussing doctrine.

 

[Digger]

Why would God have been mistaken in commanding man to do what He expects as an ideal befitting Him even if it were impossible for man because of corruption that God did not cause? Does not God have His purposes in commanding so? Let's explore Scripture -

Compare Lev 18:5 with Gal 3:10-12. Therein you have God giving the options of receiving life by the righteousness of the law or receiving death by the transgression of the law. Is there any one created man who can receive life by the righteousness of the law? Why then does God give man such options? Isn't it to show forth His perfect standards of righteousness and justice and His attributes of grace, mercy and compassion? The law's purpose is to point man to Christ, through the realization that there is indeed a corrupt nature in him, not caused by God, that makes it impossible for him to live by the righteousness of the law but only by the righteousness of faith in Christ.


I'd written the following only to address this point. Is there anything here that you require me to elaborate on or clarify?

ivdavid - " Of course, you must not misconstrue God's will to only be limited to end results - He wills the entire path that each man must travel in accordance with His nature. So, just as the pharisees were deemed hypocrites even in their giving alms, the pharoah would be likewise found with an intent that transgresses God's law even if he had set the Israelites free [kindly differentiate between a good(beneficial) act being done to the recipient and a good(moral) act being done by the doer.] "


No, absolutely not. All sinful inclinations are caused by sin(1) in the flesh[the literal rendition of Romans 8:7] and sin(1) was not caused by God.

A crude illustration - one must not think that a pig is by nature clean just because there is no mud anywhere to roll on. Present the mud, and the pig expresses its true nature without any of us causing it to.

As to what I meant,
ivdavid - "God orchestrated the circumstances without refraining evil(not causing it though) - quite similar to 1Kings 22."

How do you see the events in 1Kings 22?


God never does anything against anyone's will and God definitely does not cause anyone to sin. God either permits one to continue sinning in the flesh according to that person's own corrupt self-will or He regenerates them and causes them both to will and to do according to His good pleasure. In the former case, man is permitted his own sinful self-will - in the latter case, God provides His own godly nature in His Spirit to incline man according to His will unto the things of God. In neither case, is man's will violated by God. All violation is done by sin - in that it corrupts that which is good itself - in order to show how exceedingly sinful sin really is.

And if by calvinistic, you mean a person who follows the teachings of Calvin or some variant of his followers because they said so - then no, I'm not a calvinist. On the other hand, if by calvinistic, you are referring to a certain set of beliefs that one holds as he has been led to understand Scripture - then as a referential term, you may call me a calvinist, though I'd simply prefer discussing doctrine.

Your doctrine turns actual sin (your 2) into a malady where actual sin resuls from inborn sin (your 1). Thus men are not responsible for their actual sins because they were necessitated by the state in which they were born.

The early church denied such notions and it was not until Augustine that the opposite view (which you hold) became established into orthodoxy.

Whether directly or indirectly you are blaming God for sin. While you may state that God did not make man a sinner directly to avoid directly blaming God you are still indirectly blaming God for allowing men to be sinners from birth.

There are two views on this...

1. Traducianism (Seminal Identity) - Sin is some sort of substance of the flesh which is passed down in the male seed.

2. Creationism (Federal Head) - Sin is imputed to the soul by God at conception due to Adam's violation of a covenant agreement in the garden.

Under this belief system a sinner will view his sin as the result of how he was born not as a result of choices that he actually made. The result is that a true godly sorrow for one's crimes is completely eliminated. Without a genuine godly sorrow there can be no genuine repentance.

Inherited Sin (Original Sin) is a very dangerous teaching because it negates biblical repentance and also redefines faith, grace, and salvation.

A faulty view of the nature of man leads to all sorts of error.

The teaching of an inherited sin nature is Satan's masterpiece of false doctrine because it completely negates a genuine repentance and faith which are the only means by which someone can come to God for reconciliation and thus be cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Most who profess Christ are caught in this snare and once caught in it it is very difficult to be freed due to the cognitive dissonance (conflict) produced in the mind when the true Gospel is heard.

 

[Digger]

Inherited sin has perverted the Gospel message into teaching that one gets saved IN their sins.

This is because one cannot repent of a nature they were born with, they have to wait on God to change it.

Thus converts supposedly come into the faith still double-minded, still carnal, still trying to serve two masters, and then wait on God to clean them up.

That is why if you ask any pastor if there is any sin particular sin that must stop before or after salvation they will all answer no. In their mind sin cannot be stopped because it is a result of the inborn sin nature. They will teach that only a desire to stop and a confession of a sinful state is required in order to be forgiven by God.

The whole Gospel has been turned on its head under this lie of being born a sinner.

The Bible teaches free will, it teaches that God has given light to all men and that his grace teaches all men. It is up to men to yield to the call of God by forsaking their wickedness and abide in the truth.

Jesus called on people to repent, to deny themselves, pick up their cross and follow Him.

God is the source of light and it is through Jesus Christ that we abide in that light in order to be reconciled to God. We must be walking in the light as He is in the light in order for the blood to cleanse us from all sin.

No cleansing occurs if one is still walking in a state of rebellion to God. Satan knows this and that is why his ministers who falsely appear as ministers of righteousness always negate true holiness.

These wolves, with their great swelling words, convince professing Christian's that there are born sinners and that they will always be willfully sinning due to their depravity and thus grace is twisted into a cloak which covers them in this state as God slowly cleans them up. It is a lie that leads people to perdition.

Don't be deceived, dig deep and hold fast to that which is good.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I was always taught that when we're saved the Holy Spirit comes in and this makes us want to please God. But we do still have a carnal nature and the desire to sin as well. Thus our spirit and flesh are always battling each other.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
~2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
~Romans 7:14-25 KJV

If the flesh is synonymous with sin nature...I dunno, just makes sense that it's something we inherit.

 

[beforHim]

I was always taught that when we're saved the Holy Spirit comes in and this makes us want to please God. But we do still have a carnal nature and the desire to sin as well. Thus our spirit and flesh are always battling each other.

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
~2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV

"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
~Romans 7:14-25 KJV

If the flesh is synonymous with sin nature...I dunno, just makes sense that it's something we inherit.

So an all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful God would have us ceoncieved in a state were, if we were stillborn, we'd be separated from Him eternally? Whatever those verses mean, I think they can't mean this!

 

[beforHim]

A sinner showing a kindness to anyone does not make them 'right with God'. A simple act of 'goodness' does not negate the sin of Adam. Our righteousness is as filty rags. Cain was giving 'his' offering to God when he blew up and killed Able.
God's wonderful Spirit is still over the earth. The evilness of mankind is most often held in check.... If God lifts that Spirit covering man kind will look like all those creepy Hollywood movies.. or some of the bad guys in history..

I don't think we're so much as arguing against "inevitable sin", sin's totality one committed, or against sin's results (total separation from God). We're arguing that to say we're "born in sin" is the same as saying that God sends us to, lets us go to, hell- without our having any control over the matter. it wasn't my fault that I was conceived.

 

[evenifigoalone]

It is hard to comprehend in some ways, I guess, but why else would people be so sinful and inclined to sin? Animals don't sin.

That said, I don't think a baby would go to hell if he died and before he had even a consciousness of the concept of sin.


I'd always been told that it came from Adam having sinned, meaning it entered into the gene pool after he sinned. Got to admit that I'm not sure how that'd work. But like I said, I don't understand how we humans would be so greatly inclined towards sinning unless it was in our nature.

According to the Bible the world has been corrupted and cursed since Adam's sin--I suppose that corruption and/or curse must have included the sin nature.

 

[Digger]

It is hard to comprehend in some ways, I guess, but why else would people be so sinful and inclined to sin? Animals don't sin.

That said, I don't think a baby would go to hell if he died and before he had even a consciousness of the concept of sin.


I'd always been told that it came from Adam having sinned, meaning it entered into the gene pool after he sinned. Got to admit that I'm not sure how that'd work. But like I said, I don't understand how we humans would be so greatly inclined towards sinning unless it was in our nature.

According to the Bible the world has been corrupted and cursed since Adam's sin--I suppose that corruption and/or curse must have included the sin nature.

Animals do not sin because they do not have the moral capability to know right from wrong. Animals live according to their instincts and base desires. Likewise a newborn infant lives according to instinct and its base desires. There is no sin present because sin cannot exist without law whether the law be a direct command or whether it be the light of conscience.

We are all born into a flesh body and this flesh body has passions and desires. When a person yields to those passions and desires in disregard to the light of conscience it is sin. That is what living according to the flesh means.

The flesh is not sinful. The view that sin is a substance of the flesh is rooted in Neo-platonism as well as the subsequent development of Gnosticism. Augustine who was schooled in these philosophies brought them into church orthodoxy after he converted to Catholicism due that he was a very prolific and influential writer.

A human being has two choices, they can either live like an animal in disregard of moral conscience or they can live according to the Spirit whereby the flesh is brought into subjection to the moral conscience. One road leads to life and the other leads to death.

Our moral conscience is sourced from God as God's grace has appeared to all men teaching all men how to live (Tit 2:11-12) and all men have been given light by God (Joh 1:9).

Men have a proclivity to sin due to being drawn away by the lust of the flesh (Jam 1:14-15) but those who are Christ's have crucified these lusts and thus do not yield to them unto sin (Gal 5:24).

Read Romans 6,7 and 8 for a better understanding on this.

The flesh is not in and of itself sinful and nor are the lusts of the flesh. Sin is when we yield to the flesh in selfishness at the expense of doing the will of God and loving our neighbour as oneself.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Ah. But because we have a tendency to do what our human nature wants even if it disobeys God, could not this be described as a sinful nature? Not in the sense of "we have a gene that makes us want to sin" or that human nature is all bad, but in that the desires of our human nature can and often do lead us to commit sin.
Human nature is definitely inherited, and that would include the part of it that leads to sin. In that sense, it seems to make sense.

 

[Eventide]

To WILL is present with me...

IMO Paul details the problem in Romans 7.. there he says that TO WILL is present with me.

That's the problem, our will versus the will of God.

A born again Christian has two persons living within the same lump of clay.. we have our 'old man' and the 'new man' which is Christ in us.. and the problem is that there is nothing good in the flesh and everything that is good in Christ.. who is IN US..

There will always be a struggle with the flesh against the Spirit.. the old man isn't going to get any better and Christ in you can't get any better.. and although we're to reckon the old man as dead and crucified with Christ, experience (and that true light in us) should show us that in practice it's infinitely easier said than lived.

 

[Digger]

Ah. But because we have a tendency to do what our human nature wants even if it disobeys God, could not this be described as a sinful nature? Not in the sense of "we have a gene that makes us want to sin" or that human nature is all bad, but in that the desires of our human nature can and often do lead us to commit sin.
Human nature is definitely inherited, and that would include the part of it that leads to sin. In that sense, it seems to make sense.

No it cannot be described as a sinful nature because the Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all points as we are yet without sin. If we are born with a "sin nature" then Jesus would have had this "sin nature" because He was tempted in all points as we are.

The inborn sin teaching denies the humanity of Jesus. Carefully read 1st John in its entirely as John was addressing this very issue because this philosophical error was gaining ground back then.

Jesus has the same passions and desires of the flesh as any other man, He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh as the Scripture states. Jesus did not live according to the flesh and He is calling all men to do the same.

 

[Digger]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

IMO Paul details the problem in Romans 7.. there he says that TO WILL is present with me.

That's the problem, our will versus the will of God.

A born again Christian has two persons living within the same lump of clay.. we have our 'old man' and the 'new man' which is Christ in us.. and the problem is that there is nothing good in the flesh and everything that is good in Christ.. who is IN US..

There will always be a struggle with the flesh against the Spirit.. the old man isn't going to get any better and Christ in you can't get any better.. and although we're to reckon the old man as dead and crucified with Christ, experience (and that true light in us) should show us that in practice it's infinitely easier said than lived.

Romans 7:14-25 is a description of a carnal man under conviction. This carnal man is sold under sin (7:14) and needs deliverance from bondage (7:24). He is trying to war against the flesh in the flesh (Rom 7:18-23) and cannot find victory.

Deliverance lies in being set free through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) where one is to walk after the Spirit (Gal 5:16). This occurs through dying with Christ in repentance (Rom 6:3-4) where the old man is crucified thus destroying the body of sin (Rom 6:6) where one is raised up (Rom 6:4-5, Col 2:12-13) to newness of life and set free from sin (Rom 6:7).

Original sin redefines the above into being a "positional" or "forensic" state which leads then to grace having to be redefined into being a cloak for the continued state of actual bondage (eg. Rom 7 taught as the present Christian walk).

Satan wants people to believe that they can sin and not surely die and thus he has been able to pervert the Gospel through the introduction of subtle underlying philosophical strongholds. These strongholds misdirect and twist the truth of the Gospel in a very subtle manner which deceives people into believing that they can be saved and yet still be in rebellion at the same time. This is why sanctification is generally taught as a state where one is sinning less and less while grace covers that which is lacking.

It is a well oiled deception that holds the minds of so many. It is tragic and unfortunate but Jesus warned us of such deception and so did all the writers of the New Testament. Dig deep into the Bible and consider deeply all these things.

 

[Eventide]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

Romans 7:14-25 is a description of a carnal man under conviction. This carnal man is sold under sin (7:14) and needs deliverance from bondage (7:24). He is trying to war against the flesh in the flesh (Rom 7:18-23) and cannot find victory.

Deliverance lies in being set free through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) where one is to walk after the Spirit (Gal 5:16). This occurs through dying with Christ in repentance (Rom 6:3-4) where the old man is crucified thus destroying the body of sin (Rom 6:6) where one is raised up (Rom 6:4-5, Col 2:12-13) to newness of life and set free from sin (Rom 6:7).

Original sin redefines the above into being a "positional" or "forensic" state which leads then to grace having to be redefined into being a cloak for the continued state of actual bondage (eg. Rom 7 taught as the present Christian walk).

Satan wants people to believe that they can sin and not surely die and thus he has been able to pervert the Gospel through the introduction of subtle underlying philosophical strongholds. These strongholds misdirect and twist the truth of the Gospel in a very subtle manner which deceives people into believing that they can be saved and yet still be in rebellion at the same time. This is why sanctification is generally taught as a state where one is sinning less and less while grace covers that which is lacking.

It is a well oiled deception that holds the minds of so many. It is tragic and unfortunate but Jesus warned us of such deception and so did all the writers of the New Testament. Dig deep into the Bible and consider deeply all these things.

Lot of words here and I'm not sure what you're trying to say..

Are you telling me that there is not an old man and a new man living within your earthen vessel, and that your flesh never wars against the Spirit of Christ in you ?

 

[Digger]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

Lot of words here and I'm not sure what you're trying to say..

Are you telling me that there is not an old man and a new man living within your earthen vessel, and that your flesh never wars against the Spirit of Christ in you ?

Dig deep into the Scripture and believe what it says.

The old man is crucified in a Christian and that means the old man is dead (Rom 6:6).

Those that are Christ's HAVE (past tense) crucified the flesh with its passions and desires (Gal 5:24).

Temptation is common to man but a genuine Christian does not yield to it (1 Cor 10:13). Sin does not have dominion over us because we are under grace (Rom 6:14) and have thus been quickened by God (Eph 2:5).

One of the major errors in modern Christianity is that the old man is never crucified like the Bible teaches. Thus professing converts come into the faith still in bondage to their sins with the old man still alive.

It is a dangerous error.

 

[Eventide]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

Dig deep into the Scripture and believe what it says.

The old man is crucified in a Christian and that means the old man is dead (Rom 6:6).

Those that are Christ's HAVE (past tense) crucified the flesh with its passions and desires (Gal 5:24).

Temptation is common to man but a genuine Christian does not yield to it (1 Cor 10:13). Sin does not have dominion over us because we are under grace (Rom 6:14) and have thus been quickened by God (Eph 2:5).

One of the major errors in modern Christianity is that the old man is never crucified like the Bible teaches. Thus professing converts come into the faith still in bondage to their sins with the old man still alive.

It is a dangerous error.

You didn't answer the questions of course.. and they're simple..

I understand that my old man is crucified with Christ... and I also understand that I am to PUT OFF the old man who IS corrupt according to deceitful lusts and that I am to PUT ON the new man which is Christ in me, my hope of glory.

We're going to carry that old man around with us until the day that we die... and that's because the sting of death is sin.. that's why every last one of us in Adam are going to die..

It's not Me and Christ.. it's Christ (alone) in me.. that's my hope of glory... And Rom 7 is a very real and present aspect of the born again Christian.. if there's no struggle in you and if you're going to tell me that you don't ever fall short of the glory of God... then imo that true light isn't convicting you of your sin, your wretchedness, and your absolute dependancy upon the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ to deliver you from that..

For we WAIT for the manifestation of the sons of God, to wit, the REDEMPTION of our bodies.

 

[Stan53]

Christians … how can you (especially) not believe in original sin?

Do I believe in The original sin that Eve committed? YES

Do I believe that we are born into sin? YES

Do I believe we are born with sin? NO

Read what Jesus said in Matthew 18. In verses 2-5 it says, He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.
Then in Matthew 19:14, He says; “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.â€

Jesus knew there was a time in a child's life where he/she was pure in heart and recognized instinctively, who He was.

All children get to an age when they do become accountable for their actions and sins, but they aren't born with sin.

 

[Elijah674]

Let’s start with WHY no human could be the father of Jesus.
“… she (Mary) was found with child of the Holy Spirit …
that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.” (Matthew 1:18,20)
“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you” (Luke 1:35)
This miracle of the Holy Spirit ensured that Jesus would not inherit man’s sin nature.

Some verses from David … enjoy!
“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” (Psalm 51:5)
“The wicked (sons of men, verse 1) are estranged from the womb;
they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.” (Psalm 58:3)
“The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men … They have all turned aside,
they have all become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one.” (Psalm 14:2-3)
“God looks down from heaven upon the children of men … Every one of them has turned aside;
they have all become corrupt; there is none who does good, no, not one.” (Psalm 53:2-3)
“… for in Your sight no one living is righteous.” (Psalm 143:2)

Next up … various and sundry verses … enjoy!
“… (for there is no one who does not sin) …” (1 Kings 8:46, 2 Chronicles 6:36)
“For there is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin.” (Ecclesiastes 7:20)
“Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one!” (Job 14:4)
“For I knew that you (Israel) … were called a transgressor from the womb.” (Isaiah 48:8)
“For we are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses
are like filthy rags (women’s menstral cloths)” (Isaiah 64:6)
The Pharisees said to a man, “You were completely born in sins …” (John 9:34)

Jesus, of course, understood man’s disasterous spiritual condition
“If you (Jesus’ disciples) then, being evil, know how to give good gifts …” (Luke 11:13)
Did Jesus purposely choose evil men to be His disciples? No, He’s just saying that all men are evil.
“But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, and had no need
that anyone should tell Him about man, for He knew what was in man.” (John 2:23-25)
“I am He who searches the minds and hearts.” (Revelation 2:23)
“Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts,
false witness (lies), blasphemies.” (Matthew 15:19)

Paul (the Jewish scholar) just repeated what his Old Covenant Scriptures say
“As it is written: ‘There is none righteous, no, not one … there is none who does good,
no, not one.’ ” (Romans 3:10-12). Paul is quoting here from Psalm 53:2-3.
“The Scripture has confined all under sin …” (Galatians 3:22)
“… through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin,
and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned …” (Romans 5:12)
“I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.
… the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.” (Romans 7:18-19)
“… through one man’s offense (Adam’s sin) judgment came to all men,
resulting in condemnation … in Adam all die (spiritually) …” (1 Corinthians 15:18, 22)
“And you He made alive, who were (spiritually) dead in trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1-3)

The Fall of Man affected more than just the human race
What happened between …
Genesis 1:31 “Then God saw everything that he had made, and indeed it was very good.”
and …
Romans 8:21-22 “… the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption
into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans
and labors with birth pangs together until now.”
What happened was “the Fall of Man” and this caused:
(1) a cursed man … an inherited sin nature, evil, sickness, physical death, spiritual death.
(2) a cursed creation … suffering, pain, disorder/chaos, death of God’s creatures.

Noah and his family carried the sin nature through the flood
Noah left the ark, built an altar, and offered a burnt offering to the Lord (Genesis 8:18-20).
”Then the Lord said in His heart, ‘… the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth …’ ” (Genesis 8:21)

Jews … how can you not believe in original sin?
Muslims … how can you say God’s prophets were all sinless?
Christians … how can you (especially) not believe in original sin?

Hi. Excellent material! But just one quick question, but not for you it seems? 1 Cor. 14:32 tel's us that None of the Prophets spoke opposite one another in context! (bottom/line) So why is it that these forums seem to need a polling contest as though God had lied or made mistakes??

--Elijah

 

[heymikey80]

I do not know where you are going with this argument but it does not change waht Paul said in Rom 3, he never said people are born astray or born unprofitable.

An entire group has become unprofitable -- the race of man. None of humanity is righteous.

You quoted a verse that said no one, none are righteous. This verse is suppose to be "proof text" for Calvinism that all are totally depraved, but it's not.

And why not? It excludes everyone -- that would include newborns.

So exactly what trangression are you accusing a newly conceived person of committing?

If you need one: lack of faith. "Anything that is not of faith is sin."

Paul said the children not being born had done no works good or evil. Above you say the newly concieved have committed some trangression when Paul said they have not done any evil work.

Sin isn't simply an action that transgresses the law. Transgression of law is sin, sure, but not all sin is simply acting in a way that's illegal.

You once again go against what Paul said, he said they had done no good or evil. Therefore the newly concieved cannot be righteous or evil. Your trying to accuse the newly concieved of doing something they have not done.

No, that's not the case. Sin is wider than taking actions.

The whole idea of orginal sin means people are passively born sinners. If I was born a sinner that was not an active choice I made for myself but something passively forced upon me.

Yet you are affected entirely by who and what you are. As by nature you're a sinner, you'll get the consequences of sinfulness.

The newly concieved are not active sinners, you have not show what transgression they have committed.

See above.

From Rom 7: 7,8 Paul said where there is no law sin is dead then he said he was once without the law meaning when he was an infant he was WITHOUT LAW so there would be NO TRANGRESSION against law he could commit being WITHOUT LAW. If this country was WITHOUT civil laws then there is no trangression you could commit.

Paul never refers to himself as an infant in this passage. Why's it being used in this manner?

I had no choice in how I was born, I did not choose for myself to be born with sin so it would be forced upon me no matter how much you deny that.

Humanity is also "forced" on you in this manner. This is not an argument against depravity, any more than it's an argument against humanity.

If it was not forced upon me, and I did not choose it,then how did i end up with it?

Because it's something that you are.

This is getting more incredible as i go along. So now you say before i was conceived, before I even existed I had a choice in how I would be born. How could I make choices before I was conceived, how could I make choices when I had no thought processes at all?????

Describe where I said that. Hint: I didn't.

You didn't have a choice, it's what you are. The options available to you are limited solely by your will. And your will is who you are.

God is in no way responsible if man abuses the gift of free will He gave to man.

God is equally responsible for human beings being given something without the wisdom to use it rightly.

Really, how is God responsible for man's abuses? Where does the bible say God intended for man to abuse his free will?

• Did man use his free will to sin?
• And didn't God know this would happen?
• And didn't God nevertheless grant the person a will which would sin?
• So did God do something He didn't intend?

If you worked for a car manufacturer making cars and someone bought one of the cars you worked on, went out and drank heavily, had a wreck and killed someone, you are responsible for their abuse of alcohol and subsequent wreck?

I didn't make the drunkard, but God did.

even though you knew people would drink and drive, you still made cars so that makes you responsible? Above you say "God intended it" so do you intend people to drink and drive the cars you made?

If I had complete control over how people would abuse their capabilities, I could make a perfect person. Nevertheless people are granted an ability to sin. Did God not intend to make people this way?

Above you said Christians are righteous. So is no one righteous or are some righteous? No where does the bible say new borns are born astray. Psa 58:3 "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." Go astray is not the same as born astray. How do new borns speak lies when they cannot talk or understand a language?

People can't act before they're born. The language Scripture is using is about someone who takes actions -- those actions go astray as soon as they occur.

"There is no one righteous -- not a one". Which infant is excluded here?