Many Scriptural proofs of man’s inherited sin nature

[Digger]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

You didn't answer the questions of course.. and they're simple..

I understand that my old man is crucified with Christ... and I also understand that I am to PUT OFF the old man who IS corrupt according to deceitful lusts and that I am to PUT ON the new man which is Christ in me, my hope of glory.

We're going to carry that old man around with us until the day that we die... and that's because the sting of death is sin.. that's why every last one of us in Adam are going to die..

It's not Me and Christ.. it's Christ (alone) in me.. that's my hope of glory... And Rom 7 is a very real and present aspect of the born again Christian.. if there's no struggle in you and if you're going to tell me that you don't ever fall short of the glory of God... then imo that true light isn't convicting you of your sin, your wretchedness, and your absolute dependancy upon the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ to deliver you from that..

For we WAIT for the manifestation of the sons of God, to wit, the REDEMPTION of our bodies.

If these are the questions...

"Are you telling me that there is not an old man and a new man living within your earthen vessel, and that your flesh never wars against the Spirit of Christ in you ?"

I thought I did address them. There is not an old man living within our earthen vessel for the old man is crucified. Their is an old man who is dead in our earthen vessel if it in fact he has been crucified with Christ.

While we are still subject to temptation we are not subject to bondage and thus all temptation can be resisted by the power of God. God has given us everything we need that pertains to life and godliness.

In order to put on the new man the old man has to be put off. Paul addresses this directly...

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

If one has indeed put off the old man then they ought not be lying one to another, if they are lying it is evidence that the old man has not been actually put off.

Gal 5:24 and Col 3:9 both say HAVE/HAS in regards to the flesh/old man being crucified. It is a done deal not a process.

The sting of death being sin is a reference to spiritual death, not physical death. Physical death is due a result of Adam sinning and being kicked out of the garden and being deprived access to the Tree of Life. We likewise are denied access to that tree hence we physically die.

To truly hold the position that the wretch in Romans 7 is the state of the present Christian walk causes many problems with Scripture.

Firstly the Romans wretch is "carnal and sold under sin" (Rom 7:14). Thus you are identifying with being carnal and sold under sin.

You cannot be "sold under sin" and "set free from sin" (Rom 6:7) at the same time. That is a contradiction. One is either in bondage to sin or they are not.

Israel was no longer in bondage in Egypt when they had been set free. They were set free and entered into the wilderness.

A Christian is set free from the bondage of sin (Rom 6:7, Rom 6:18) that they may be a servant of righteousness (Rom 6:18-22).

Peter describes it as "having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" so that one may partake in the divine nature.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

You claim to be carnal and sold under sin which means you have not escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. If you believe you actually have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust then why are you still carnal and sold under sin? See the problem? It just doesn't work.

The Romans wretch also does what he does not want to do (Rom 7:15, Rom 7:19) and you are identifying with that therefore you must be doing what you do not want to do.

The reason you cannot do the things that you would is because you are carnal and sold under sin (Rom 7:14). Take a look at Gal 5:17 as Paul uses very similar language to describe the same concept.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

If you are carnal and sold under sin then you are in the flesh and you cannot be subject to the law of God. This is why you do what you don't want to do.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The predicament of the Romans wretch is that of someone who needs deliverance.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

A born again Christian is not a wretched sinner. They have been set free by crucifying the flesh with its passions and desires in repentance (Gal 5:24, Rom 6:6) and have thus been raised up with Christ (Rom 6:4-5, Col 2:12-13) and have thus been set free.

Your theology is in contradiction and you are forced to define grace as a cover for your continual doing of what you don't want to do. Thus grace has become a license to sin which is the deception Jude warned about.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Thus when Jesus said one cannot serve two masters you have to say that one indeed can. Your theology forces you to hold that position.

You have the carnal and spiritual mixing which is double-mindedness. The Bible speaks against such things.

All this is the result of the underlying fallacy of inborn sin which completely perverts the Gospel message.

You are also forced to believe horrible things like, for example, that a child molester does not have to stop molesting children in order to be forgiven by God. The child molester would come to God in process, be saved, and then sanctification would begin and they would molest children less and less.

If you disagree with that last paragraph then explain why a child molester would have to stop yet you still do what you don't want to do because you are the Romans wretch. The child molester could say the same thing about his sin, that he is doing what he does not want to do. See the problem? You are forced to argue in favour of sin.

I know what I am talking about as I have discussed these very issues with multitudes of pastors. They all teach that you get saved in your sins and that the sin never stops.

I urge you to really think about these things because the strong delusion over the church system is very powerful and very few are going to escape its clutches. Only those who yield to the truth no matter what the cost will be able to extricate themselves by the power of the grace of God.

 

[heymikey80]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

I think the issue here is that Paul is encouraging us to put off the old man.

If the old man were dead, he wouldn't be needing us to put him off. He would be dead.

The only way I can take most of what Paul is saying here is that Paul is encouraging us to look at our destination, not our present state, to figure out how to respond to the old man -- who is still with us, and of whom Paul is telling us we need to be in the process of putting off as a Christian responsibility and exercise.

 

[Digger]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

I think the issue here is that Paul is encouraging us to put off the old man.

If the old man were dead, he wouldn't be needing us to put him off. He would be dead.

The only way I can take most of what Paul is saying here is that Paul is encouraging us to look at our destination, not our present state, to figure out how to respond to the old man -- who is still with us, and of whom Paul is telling us we need to be in the process of putting off as a Christian responsibility and exercise.

It appears you already "know" what you want to believe and do not want to consider the contradictions.

Of course Paul encourages people to put off the old man, he also encourages them to stop sinning, to obey God, to be living sacrifices. These admonishes do not contradict or make any allowance in any way shape or form that those that are Christ's HAVE crucified the old man with its passions and desires. Those that are Christ's have done this, those affections and lusts are crucified, they are not ruling over the Christian.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we indeed live in the Spirit we ought to walk in the Spirit.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Outward actions are a reflection of an inward state.

The Christian is not carnal and sold under sin.

I clearly and concisely laid out the error of holding to a "saved in sins" theology and using the Romans wretch as an example of the present Christian condition.

It appears you want to believe that the old man is crucified gradually, that one is gradually escaping the corruption that is in the world through lust, that one is gradually ceasing from sin etc.

Our opinions are total vanity if they do not harmonise with the truth.

 

[heymikey80]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

It appears you already "know" what you want to believe and do not want to consider the contradictions.

Well I wouldn't put it that way, I've already considered the contradictions in your point of view and explained why I think differently.

Of course Paul encourages people to put off the old man, he also encourages them to stop sinning, to obey God, to be living sacrifices.

... why would the New Man continue sinning, disobey God, and refuse to be a living sacrifice?

These admonishes do not contradict or make any allowance in any way shape or form that those that are Christ's HAVE crucified the old man with its passions and desires.

How does the New Man have the capacity to contradict himself? How does the dead old man have any passions or desires? Is he dead or not?

 

[heymikey80]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

The Christian is not carnal and sold under sin.

I need to focus on this for one second --

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 1 Cor 3:3

Paul doesn't consider the Corinthian church Christian? Yet he writes:

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints 1 Cor 1:2a

 

[Stan53]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

How does the New Man have the capacity to contradict himself? How does the dead old man have any passions or desires? Is he dead or not?

The word DEAD, in the entire Bible, has to do with our physical life force. We are either actually dead or effectually dead.
As a Christian believers, we are ALL going to inherit Eternal LIFE. Life as we know it, physically, NOT spiritually.

Jesus talks about the judgement and the separation of sheep and goats in Revelation. At the end of this prophecy, Jesus says; “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. †Matthew 25:46
The punishment is being eternally separated from Life, and God.

 

[Digger]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

Well I wouldn't put it that way, I've already considered the contradictions in your point of view and explained why I think differently.

... why would the New Man continue sinning, disobey God, and refuse to be a living sacrifice?

How does the New Man have the capacity to contradict himself? How does the dead old man have any passions or desires? Is he dead or not?

The passions and desires are crucified which is exactly what Jesus was teaching when he said, deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me.

When the passions and desires are crucified it means that the believer denies them. He instead rules over them. We have to lose our life in this world in order to gain it eternally.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

We are not to yield to sin. Instead we yield to righteousness.

Christian's no longer do this...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

You have to ask yourself if you are still drawn away by your lust into sin? If you are then you have not crucified those passions and desires in repentance.

Those that are born of God keep themselves and do not sin after the lusts of the flesh.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

They no longer live the rest of their time to the lusts of men.

1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Thus they have ceased from sin.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

False doctrine denies this and turns grace into a cloak for the continued habit of being drawn away by the lusts of the flesh into sin.

A person who is carnal and sold under sin is still in bondage, hence they are carnal and living carnally. They are sold or enslaved to sin.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The Bible is very clear on these issues. There is no wiggle room for continued willful sin for a Christian. There is no wiggle room for the continued indulgence of the flesh in rebellion to the light of conscience or a direct command of God. Those sins have to stop or the person is not saved.

Salvation is equivalent to being set free from sin and well as being cleansed of all past transgression by the blood of Jesus Christ.

The Israelites were no longer under the bondage of Egypt when in the wilderness. They had to endure and grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ in order to enter the promised land. It is exactly the same for a Christian, we are set free from the bondage of sin through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ and we then must endure the wilderness, bearing fruit, patiently continuing in doing good as we add to our faith. In doing this heart purity is the result and we are holy as He is holy and will thus be granted abundant entrance into the kingdom.

What is taught today in the church system is not even close to what I wrote above. Practically everything had been redefined and millions are deceived by it.

We will still be tempted by the lusts of the flesh but we continually mortify them, keeping the old man crucified.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
1Co 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

 

[heymikey80]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

The word DEAD, in the entire Bible, has to do with our physical life force. We are either actually dead or effectually dead.
As a Christian believers, we are ALL going to inherit Eternal LIFE. Life as we know it, physically, NOT spiritually.

Jesus talks about the judgement and the separation of sheep and goats in Revelation. At the end of this prophecy, Jesus says; “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life. †Matthew 25:46
The punishment is being eternally separated from Life, and God.

On this thinking the question would still remain, wouldn't it? If the old man is effectively dead, Paul would have nothing to encourage us to do that characterizes the old man. He's ineffective. So why is the old man so effective (that is, not dead) that Paul is encouraging everyone to put off the old man?

 

[heymikey80]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

The passions and desires are crucified which is exactly what Jesus was teaching when he said, deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me.

It returns to the same issue: if the old man is dead, and someone isn't a Christian until the old man is dead, then Paul is encouraging non-Christians.

But Paul is encouraging Christians by his own admission.

That's why the conclusion that Christians are people in whom the Spirit is working, putting to death the old man, putting him off, in progress, not completed.

And so we can't say the death of the old man has been completed. It is comprehended and encouraged, but it is not finished.

 

[Stan53]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

On this thinking the question would still remain, wouldn't it? If the old man is effectively dead, Paul would have nothing to encourage us to do that characterizes the old man. He's ineffective. So why is the old man so effective (that is, not dead) that Paul is encouraging everyone to put off the old man?

In this context, Paul is talking about our CARNAL nature. This is something that continues with us throughout life. It is part of our corruptible being. Paul deals with this in Romans 7, although it requires some slow and careful reading to appropriate it into our lives. This is the insidious part of our nature that the devil FULLY exploits at all times.

 

[Eventide]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

There is not an old man living within our earthen vessel for the old man is crucified. Their is an old man who is dead in our earthen vessel if it in fact he has been crucified with Christ.

Digger, you mean to tell me that since you have become born again, that you have not once struggled in the flesh or sinned ?

If your answer is yes... then exactly how long have you been born again.

If your answer is no... then how come you sinned if the old man is crucified.. ? Certainly Christ in you can't sin, right ?

 

[Digger]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

I need to focus on this for one second --

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 1 Cor 3:3

Paul doesn't consider the Corinthian church Christian? Yet he writes:

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints 1 Cor 1:2a

What you ought to do is really consider the fundamental points I made otherwise you'll just be going in circles with all the fallacies you hold. If the fundamentals I spoke of stand sure then everything else collapses like a house of cards.

You are attempting to proof text scripture to prove that a Christian is in fact carnal and sold under sin. The Bible clearly shows that the carnal mind is opposed to God and that those who are carnal cannot do what is right. They are in bondage to the lusts of the flesh and thus they are in bondage to sin.

1Cor 3 is an admonition to the Corinthian church about how they were esteeming one teacher above another and dividing themselves over it. Such action was carnal and Paul corrected them on it saying not to do that. Christian's if they are not diligently adding to their faith can allow the carnal man to revive and can fall into bondage again.

Paul was constantly admonishing brethren to hold fast and endure. It is the strait gate and narrow way, it is a race that we run, we have to keep our bodies in subjection in order to gain the prize.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

 

[Digger]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

Digger, you mean to tell me that since you have become born again, that you have not once struggled in the flesh or sinned ?

If your answer is yes... then exactly how long have you been born again.

If your answer is no... then how come you sinned if the old man is crucified.. ? Certainly Christ in you can't sin, right ?

Anyone who is born again cannot willfully sin for to do so one would have to cast out the seed within and reject Christ.

Now this is not to say I do not err and sin ignorantly but when I do and the Spirit reveals it to me I repent and turn from that sin. I have had to do this many times and probably will many times more as God keeps teaching me. I have much to learn indeed.

I am tempted by my flesh but I have chosen to live a crucified life. I no longer live for myself but Christ lives in me and I yield to His will and He thus does His works through me. I walk after the Spirit and thus I do not fulfill the lusts of my flesh exactly as Paul states.

If you believe that one cannot walk in purity then you are at odds with what is plainly taught in scripture.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

I choose the way of escape. Do you?

 

[Eventide]

the sin which so easily besets us..

IMO one of the problems here is that some people are led to believe that God is making THEM better... although He isn't.. your old man is ALWAYS going to be corrupt and Christ in you can't get any better.

The flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh.. it's a biblical fact.. and although I can appreciate the truth that I am crucified with Christ, and yet live, YET NOT I, but Christ liveth in me.. we should also understand that crucifixion is a long, slow, and painful death.. it doesn't happen all at once.

And to those who say that they have no sin... we know the issue there.. there is NO TRUTH in them.. because if there was truth in them.. then they would see clearly who THEY are as compared to who Christ is, in us.

 

[Stan53]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

The Bible clearly shows that the carnal mind is opposed to God and that those who are carnal cannot do what is right.

I suggest you pay close attention to Romans 7:21-25;
So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

 

[heymikey80]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

What you ought to do is really consider the fundamental points I made otherwise you'll just be going in circles with all the fallacies you hold. If the fundamentals I spoke of stand sure then everything else collapses like a house of cards.

The fundamental points you've made don't seem consistent with the facts, which is why I'm asking you to address those facts. Carnality is indeed identified in Christians. It is not flattering that it's there. Paul is indeed directing people to remove their carnality.

But Paul is not calling them non-believers or infidels.

You are attempting to proof text scripture to prove that a Christian is in fact carnal and sold under sin. The Bible clearly shows that the carnal mind is opposed to God and that those who are carnal cannot do what is right. They are in bondage to the lusts of the flesh and thus they are in bondage to sin.

Everyone is this. Christians have a Savior from this carnality. That Savior additionally engages their spirits to put off their former conduct and carnality.

It's Paul saying Christians are carnal.
It's also Paul saying Christians should put off carnality.

But it's Paul saying the Power putting off their carnality is not their own power; it's the Spirit of God removing their carnality.

"who will save me from this body (carnality) of sin and death?"

 

[Eventide]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

Now this is not to say I do not err and sin ignorantly but when I do and the Spirit reveals it to me I repent and turn from that sin.

HOW COME ? ? ?

You just told me that the old man is DEAD.. surely you're not going to tell me that Christ IN YOU is sinning... so WHO is falling short and WHY ?

 

[Stan53]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

HOW COME ? ? ?

You just told me that the old man is DEAD.. surely you're not going to tell me that Christ IN YOU is sinning... so WHO is falling short and WHY ?

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

 

[Eventide]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

Romans 7:25
Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

I can certainly understand that.. although digger seems to think that this is not applicable to him...? ?

 

[Stan53]

Re: To WILL is present with me...

I can certainly understand that.. although digger seems to think that this is not applicable to him...? ?

1 John 1:8-10
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

This is applicable to ALL believers.