Many Scriptural proofs of man’s inherited sin nature

[evenifigoalone]

" 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."
~Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV




Although in what would appear to be a contradiction, James does talk about works in relation to salvation. But contradiction it's not. Jame's letter is to the believers, and he is saying that works are evidence of salvation. Because then we now have a part of us, the spirit, that wants to obey God and do good things.
There are even verses that show Paul agreeing with James and visa versa on this matter. Can't remember them at the moment, but if I can find it I will link you to an article that talks about this.

ETA: yes, found it:
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/doctrine/JamesPau.htm

 

[Stan53]

No it cannot be described as a sinful nature because the Bible says that Jesus Christ was tempted in all points as we are yet without sin. If we are born with a "sin nature" then Jesus would have had this "sin nature" because He was tempted in all points as we are.

The inborn sin teaching denies the humanity of Jesus. Carefully read 1st John in its entirely as John was addressing this very issue because this philosophical error was gaining ground back then.

Jesus has the same passions and desires of the flesh as any other man, He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh as the Scripture states. Jesus did not live according to the flesh and He is calling all men to do the same.

He may have been tempted as we are but He didn't have the same nature as we do. Col 1:18-20; And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Trying to say that Jesus and any man are the same is another straw man.

 

[Elijah674]

[/INDENT]I trust I have quoted you properly Elijah.

Jesus said there is only ONE sin that leads to death, cannot be forgiven. Matthews 12:31, And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

John was speaking of this in 1 John 5:16b, when he wrote, There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

The quote was near right.;) But here is some more on what the fatal sin is & how it matures. (or is reached) Heb. 6:1-5 has a verse 6. And David is Psalms 19 has the law of God Praised above gold. Then in verse 13 we see the Word of 'ALSO' + 'KEEP BACK ALSO meaning a new thought, that of open PRESUMPTIOUS known sin! It is these sins that are in time reaching a point that the Holy Spirit just flat out can not move us if that become matured. Gen. 6:3 has Noah preaching with the Holy Spirit STRIVING for these ones repentence for well past 120 yrs.

And we see Rev. 17:1-5 in compilars CAPS with these ones being around well past any 120 yrs. of the Holy Spirit trying to LEAD them (Rom. 8:14) and with NO CHANGE seen in mostly all false doctrine being taught for truth.
And do any of these ones even budge as a denomination??

Here is the Psalms 19:13 verse. (+)
[7] The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
[8] The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
[9] The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
[10] More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
[11] Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
[12] Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.

[13] Keep back thy servant [[also from presumptuous sins;]] let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

And we know what the great transgression is. (the sin against the Holy Ghost) And here we find what leads up to it. And surely most understand James 2:10's Lovingly requirement for Obedience & 1 John 3:4's documentation of what sin is. (any sin)

--Elijah

 

[Stan53]

If salvation is an abstract or forensic legal position totally disconnected from our deeds then I guess it could not be lost.

Yet if salvation is a state of walking in obedience to God having been set free from the bondage of sin as well as having been forgiven for past sins then to willfully sin would by definition be an action incompatible with salvation.

I like it to an individual who has a bath and the mud is washed off. If they jump into the mud pit are they still clean?

and yet, salvation IS disconnected from our deeds, as Paul so clearly states in Eph 2:8, For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

 

[Stan53]

The quote was near right.;) But here is some more on what the fatal sin is & how it matures. (or is reached) Heb. 6:1-5 has a verse 6. And David is Psalms 19 has the law of God Praised above gold. Then in verse 13 we see the Word of 'ALSO' + 'KEEP BACK ALSO meaning a new thought, that of open PRESUMPTIOUS known sin! It is these sins that are in time reaching a point that the Holy Spirit just flat out can not move us if that become matured. Gen. 6:3 has Noah preaching with the Holy Spirit STRIVING for these ones repentence for well past 120 yrs.

And we see Rev. 17:1-5 in compilars CAPS with these ones being around well past any 120 yrs. of the Holy Spirit trying to LEAD them (Rom. 8:14) and with NO CHANGE seen in mostly all false doctrine being taught for truth.
And do any of these ones even budge as a denomination??

Here is the Psalms 19:13 verse. (+)
[7] The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
[8] The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
[9] The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
[10] More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
[11] Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
[12] Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.

[13] Keep back thy servant [[also from presumptuous sins;]] let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

And we know what the great transgression is. (the sin against the Holy Ghost) And here we find what leads up to it. And surely most understand James 2:10's Lovingly requirement for Obedience & 1 John 3:4's documentation of what sin is. (any sin)

--Elijah

I'm sorry but I don't follow the use of the OT in supporting this. Why Jesus said what he did in Matthew 12:31, is indicated in Matthew 12:25a, Jesus knew their thoughts. He knew, based on their statement in verse 24, where they said; “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.â€

The Pharisees KNEW Satan would NOT do that. They said this ONLY because they wanted to kill Jesus,(v.14)and were looking for ANY reason to accomplish that.

Both Jesus and John were teaching about A particular sin, NOT a conglomeration or totality of sin. We may become desensitized to sin if we continue to practise it habitually, but the Bible is pretty clear that we are NOT to do that and should NOT be one of those who "SHRINK BACK". Heb 10:38-39

 

[Elijah674]

and yet, salvation IS disconnected from our deeds, as Paul so clearly states in Eph 2:8, For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Surely this is believed? Yet, if there are NO OBEDIENT WORKS to Follow, then Inspiration has a dead body without the Holy Spirit.
James 2
[26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so [[faith without works is dead also]].

If one believed God completely as in Acts 5:32 they would find that there can be No saving faith without mankind's total surrender of 100% I give up Lord! This requirement must take place to begin with! We see the Holy Spirit ONLY GIVEN TO THEM THAT WILL OBEY HIM. And then it is at this sequence & only at this required surrender that man is recreated with Christ's Agape Love.

And then FAITH comes forward in Loving Obedience! It is FAITH BECAUSE WE TOTALLY RELY UPON CHRIST! Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9, yet all the while knowing that we cannot do anything much more than that! And the MOTIVE Is that we now have been recreated with TRUE AGAPE LOVE FOR HIM!

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

I'm sorry but I don't follow the use of the OT in supporting this. Why Jesus said what he did in Matthew 12:31, is indicated in Matthew 12:25a, Jesus knew their thoughts. He knew, based on their statement in verse 24, where they said; “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.â€

The Pharisees KNEW Satan would NOT do that. They said this ONLY because they wanted to kill Jesus,(v.14)and were looking for ANY reason to accomplish that.

Both Jesus and John were teaching about A particular sin, NOT a conglomeration or totality of sin. We may become desensitized to sin if we continue to practise it habitually, but the Bible is pretty clear that we are NOT to do that and should NOT be one of those who "SHRINK BACK". Heb 10:38-39

OK: 'i' can leave it there! But let me say it this way without using the Bible even? Let's just say that I am an honest person & that because of some of God allowing me to be tested for maturing, lets just say that I fudge on my income tax? And then maybe tell another known lie again? then why not even more lies? And on & on it goes and gets easier & easier to do?

Anyway, the point is, do you not think that for each lie that I tell that it gets more & more easily to do so??

+ do you not believe that a Born Again Christian of Rom. 8:1 does not know when he breakes any of the ten commandments of God??? Rom. 8:14

Anyway, you can have the last word!

--Elijah

 

[Digger]

and yet, salvation IS disconnected from our deeds, as Paul so clearly states in Eph 2:8, For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

I wrote a comprehensive article on that one too.

http://thesinmuststop.blogspot.com/2012/01/brief-note-on-works.html


The gift of God is salvation by grace through faith.

It is the dynamic by which our hearts are purified (Acts 3:19, 1Pet 1:22).

We have to be a worker together with God lest we receive grace in vain.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Work Out - katergazomai
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).

God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure and we have to apply it by faith.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Hence we are doers of the word and not hearers only.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

All the above is in harmony with the "striving" that Jesus taught.

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Strive - agōnizomai
From G73; to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or generally (to endeavor to accomplish something): - fight, labor fervently, strive.

The quickening of our Spirit is by God's grace.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

We put it to use through faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of any work we do apart from God, this dynamic is not of ourselves, it is of God.

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are God's workmanship not our own.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God is the author of salvation of those whom obey Him.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


The works that do not save are the works of the law or any work done apart from Christ. The works of faith are absolutely essential to salvation.

So after reading all that do you deny that one must...

1. A worker together with God.
2. Must strive to enter in at the strait gate.
3. Must be a doer of the word.
4. Must work fully, finish, accomplish our salvation by yielding to God.

After all God is going to judge you by what you do.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

[evenifigoalone]

But if salvation is through works, wouldn't this completely eliminate Jesus' need to die on the cross and pay the penalty for our sins? Salvation is the act of being ultimately forgiven for sins past, present, and future--so that these sins can no longer send us to hell.
The entire point was to pay for our salvation for us, because there is absolutely no way we could ever do enough good works to pay for it ourselves.

After that comes a relationship with God and building that that does require some work. A relationship with God, which is made possible by salvation, is a walk of obedience.

I know this doctrine is based on scripture, but I can't remember which ones right now. A simple Google search can bring up lots on the subject, from a few different POVs.

My mind is beginning to get tired on me, so I'll get back to this debate tomorrow. And I have to wonder if I'm maybe reaching the limits of my own knowledge on this subject. If so, I'll just agree to disagree and continue to watch others debate as I normally do.

 

[Stan53]

The works that do not save are the works of the law or any work done apart from Christ. The works of faith are absolutely essential to salvation.
So after reading all that do you deny that one must...
1. A worker together with God.
2. Must strive to enter in at the strait gate.
3. Must be a doer of the word.
4. Must work fully, finish, accomplish our salvation by yielding to God.

You interpret salvation as something we live to achieve in the END. That is NOT what the Bible teaches. Salvation is a ONE time event.
John 10:9
Acts 2:21
Acts 2:47
Acts 4:12
Acts 15:11
Acts 16:31
Romans 5:9
Romans 10:9
Romans 10:10
Romans 10:13
Hebrews 10:39

How we WALK in Christ depends on whether we receive Eternal Life. These are two separate and distinct issues in our lives.

After all God is going to judge you by what you do.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

These verses you quote in Romans show two things.
One, believers will receive Eternal Life
Two, Unbelievers will be punished based on the severity of their sins.

The verses you quote in Rev 22 is an epilogue...the details of which are found in Rev 20:11-15 and Rev 21:1-8 and again, show two things.
One, believers receive Eternal Life
Two, Unbelievers receive eternal punishment

Believers are NOT judged, unbelievers are.
Believers receive what was promised to them at salvation, Eternal Life.

 

[John O]

I'm just doing the Christian expectation of asking you to provide the entire passage when you quote it. For many centuries people have pulled out snippets like you did and created doctrines for it that run contrary to what the full scripture actually says.

Hi Called to Serve It is for each to search out the things of Christ to discover the knowledge and wisdom God has for us. If a verse is quoted in part, go look it up in full to ensure that it is being used accurately. If it is not come back and let us know to go check ourselves.

It is not for us to accuse another of being dishonest or mistaken it is for us to search out and question then we can go back to a brother and say "I am not sure what you say about this scripture matches the context and purpose of the verse?"

This is less offensive and confrontational than calling someone dishonest.

John O

 

[Digger]

But if salvation is through works, wouldn't this completely eliminate Jesus' need to die on the cross and pay the penalty for our sins? Salvation is the act of being ultimately forgiven for sins past, present, and future--so that these sins can no longer send us to hell.

There is not a single scripture that states that future sins are forgiven in advance. That understanding is due to holding to the Penal Substitution view of the atonement which is mainly developed via the reformers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_substitution

Research that and see for yourself.

Rom 3:25 specifically refers to PAST sins being forgiven.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

It does not say future. The reason it is past sins is because the blood cleanses you all all sin when you are walking in the light. When walking in the light you are not still in rebellion and thus sinning against God.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Another verse that refers to past sins is found in 2nd Peter.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

The early church never taught that future sins were forgiven in advance, such teaching would have been deemed heresy no doubt.

Forgiveness is granted to give a believer a fresh start, it is not granted that they can keep on sinning. That is why sin is forsaken.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Penal Substitution is pure heresy because it teaches that Jesus actually took your punishment. If that were true Jesus would be in hell right now because the wages of sin is death, the wages of sin was not torture and death on a cross.

Jesus offered Himself without spot to God on our behalf. He bore our sins as a sin offering, not as a wrath substitute.

Heb_9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Think carefully about those verses which specifically refer to previous sins being forgiven. That is a very important point because to say "future sins" is adding a doctrine to the Bible. It is actually a false teaching that convinces people that they can sin and not surely die. It is a deadly doctrine yet it tickles the ears of many and soothes the conscience.

The entire point was to pay for our salvation for us, because there is absolutely no way we could ever do enough good works to pay for it ourselves.

Indeed without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins yet that does not mean that Jesus was your wrath substitute. God is willing to forgive sinners by his good graciousness, yet this forgiveness is completely conditioned on us forsaking our rebellion and turning to God in faith.

After that comes a relationship with God and building that that does require some work. A relationship with God, which is made possible by salvation, is a walk of obedience.

Having been set free from sin (Rom 6:7) we have thus been set free from the corruption that is in the world through lust (2Pet1:4) and are thus able to partake in the divine nature. We grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Salvation is not the same as eternal life. We can have confidence of eternal life if we are in fact abiding in Him but that means we are yielding to His commandments. One cannot abide in Christ and be in rebellion to Him at the same time.

Here is an introduction by brother Mike as to why the Penal Substitution view of the atonement is false. Study these things out carefully because eternal consequences are at stake.



[video=youtube;hesitOC2OVw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hesitOC2OVw[/video]
[video=youtube;1RHiXBCCImw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RHiXBCCImw[/video]
[video]www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_dPIyb-8vI[/video]

 

[Digger]

You interpret salvation as something we live to achieve in the END. That is NOT what the Bible teaches. Salvation is a ONE time event.

No I don't interpret salvation that way. Salvation is being set free from the bondage of sin as well as being purged of all our past sins. It is not equivalent to eternal life.

Eternal life is granted to those who patiently continue in doing good, ie. bearing fruit unto righteousness.

How we WALK in Christ depends on whether we receive Eternal Life. These are two separate and distinct issues in our lives.

These verses you quote in Romans show two things.
One, believers will receive Eternal Life
Two, Unbelievers will be punished based on the severity of their sins.

The verses you quote in Rev 22 is an epilogue...the details of which are found in Rev 20:11-15 and Rev 21:1-8 and again, show two things.
One, believers receive Eternal Life
Two, Unbelievers receive eternal punishment

Believers are NOT judged, unbelievers are.
Believers receive what was promised to them at salvation, Eternal Life.

Believers who patiently continue in doing good will receive eternal life. Those who are disobedient will not. That passage in Romans specifically states that God will render to every man according to his deeds. That includes the obedient and the disobedient. It is error to say that believers are not judged, the Bible clearly says the opposite.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

We are all going to appear before the judgment seat.

2Co_5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.



Your Gospel appears to be very different than that that which is taught in the Bible. Earlier you said that, "Salvation is when we accept God's redemption" yet the Bible does not teach this. That is not what Jesus taught and it is not what was preached in the book of Acts. To come up with such a notion you have to isolate a few scriptures and ignore a multitude of other scriptures.

You claimed that the deeds of the body have nothing to do with salvation when clearly there are scriptures which speak of "striving," "working together with God, "working fully to accomplish," of course all in the context of the leading of the grace of God.

John clearly teaches in his first epistle that the deeds done in our body are a reflection of whether we are actually abiding in Christ or not.

You also blew off my sin questions because they would reveal the fallacies of what you are trying to teach.

 

[Stan53]

There is not a single scripture that states that future sins are forgiven in advance. That understanding is due to holding to the Penal Substitution view of the atonement which is mainly developed via the reformers.

I disagree. We are redeemed by the shed blood of Christ. We are NOT partially redeemed, but FULLY.

Luke 1:68
Gal 3:13
Heb 9:14
Rom 3:24-26

Then if you look at 1 John 1:7, you will see Jesus' ONGOING work, throughout of walk with Him.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 John+1:6-8&version=NIV

 

[Digger]

I disagree. We are redeemed by the shed blood of Christ. We are NOT partially redeemed, but FULLY.

Luke 1:68
Gal 3:13
Heb 9:14
Rom 3:24-26

Then if you look at 1 John 1:7, you will see Jesus' ONGOING work, throughout of walk with Him.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

You can disagree all you want. Rom 3:25 specifically says PAST SINS but you don't want to believe that. Rhetoric does not undo what the Bible plainly states. Paul meant what he said, but it doesn't line up with your theology so you reject the Bible in favour of your theology.

None of those scriptures you alluded to say that future sins are forgiven. You are attempting to read it into them through conjecture.

Let's look at the issue from "future sins forgiven in advance." That means you can sin and not surely die does it not? Of course it does. If the penalty has been paid then it means that there is no sin you could do that you could be punished lest double jeopardy result. Thus you must conclude unconditional eternal security if you are to remain consistent with your premise.

Now you are forced to explain away all the warnings and admonishes to hold fast and patiently endure, you have to explain away the scriptures that warn of being cut off for disobedience.

I am sure this is why you blew off my sin questions. In your mind no sin has to stop because Jesus already took care of sin and thus sin is not an issue anymore. A sinner just has to make sure he receives the package right? Confess, trust and receive has replaced repent, obey, strive, dig deep, count the cost, deny self, pick up your cross, go and sin no more. It is another gospel, a false gospel.

The one error of inborn sin necessitates a whole system of error.

 

[Stan53]

No I don't interpret salvation that way. Salvation is being set free from the bondage of sin as well as being purged of all our past sins. It is not equivalent to eternal life.

OK, good, but why quote scriptures that have NOTHING to do with salvation but have ONLY to do with our post-salvation walk?

Eternal life is granted to those who patiently continue in doing good, ie. bearing fruit unto righteousness.

OK, good.

Believers who patiently continue in doing good will receive eternal life. Those who are disobedient will not. That passage in Romans specifically states that God will render to every man according to his deeds. That includes the obedient and the disobedient. It is error to say that believers are not judged, the Bible clearly says the opposite.
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rom 2:6 goes with Rom 2:5, But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath , when his righteous judgement will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€
Romans 2:7 stands on it's own, verses 8 & 9 reiterate verses 5 & 6, and verse 10 reiterates verse 7. Paul had a habit of writing this way. CONTEXT is always important when reading and quoting scripture.

2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
We are all going to appear before the judgement seat.
2Co_5:10 For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

2 Thess 1:8 reads, He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Don't know what version you use but it's a little ad-libbed.
Yes we ALL will appear at the judgement seat. Rev 20:12-13, 15; And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done... Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
I think it's pretty clear that those in the Book of Life, receive Eternal Life, and those in the other books received judgement and eternal damnation based on what they had done ,and what was recorded in the other books.

Your Gospel appears to be very different than that that which is taught in the Bible. Earlier you said that, "Salvation is when we accept God's redemption" yet the Bible does not teach this. That is not what Jesus taught and it is not what was preached in the book of Acts. To come up with such a notion you have to isolate a few scriptures and ignore a multitude of other scriptures.

Well as I HAVE supplied scripture, from the Bible, to that assertion and you have not, then I would suggest your statement here is personal opinion. However if you can supply scripture to support your assertion, then please feel free to share it with ALL of us.

You claimed that the deeds of the body have nothing to do with salvation when clearly there are scriptures which speak of "striving," "working together with God, "working fully to accomplish," of course all in the context of the leading of the grace of God.

Again, you mix up the act of salvation with the acts of walking in Christ. Your opening two statements even contradict this statement. What is it?
The words you use here indicate our WALK in Jesus, NOT salvation.

John clearly teaches in his first epistle that the deeds done in our body are a reflection of whether we are actually abiding in Christ or not.

I have already dealt with those verses and properly exegeted them. Again you opine instead of exegeting.

You also blew off my sin questions because they would reveal the fallacies of what you are trying to teach.

Sorry, I guess I missed those. Your posts tend to get a little onerous. Maybe you should ask me again? I'd be more than happy to answer them.

 

[Digger]

OK, good, but why quote scriptures that have NOTHING to do with salvation but have ONLY to do with our post-salvation walk?

You are viewing salvation as merely forensic, as something abstract. Thus you believe that one can be saved and yet still be engaged in vile behaviour.

Say it is not so!

You would have a serial killer saved and killing less and less in his post salvation walk correct?

Say it is not so. When would the serial killer have to stop murdering? When does the porn watcher have to stop watching porn? When does the child molester have to stop molesting? You must believe that they don't have to because they get saved in their sins.

Say it is not so and address this point.

Rom 2:6 goes with Rom 2:5, But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath , when his righteous judgement will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€
Romans 2:7 stands on it's own, verses 8 & 9 reiterate verses 5 & 6, and verse 10 reiterates verse 7. Paul had a habit of writing this way. CONTEXT is always important when reading and quoting scripture.

There you go trying to separate Rom 2:7 from the passage. It does not stand on its own, Paul is teaching about how God is going to render to everyone according to their deeds then he gives the examples of the righteous and the unrighteous.

You twist it around and then call it context? That is quite a feat of mental gymnastics. Why not just accept it for what it plainly says?

Reality is what is real and mental games do not change reality. We either align our opinions with reality as it is presented to us or we deceive ourselves. You are just deceiving yourself by trying to pull Rom 2:7 out of that passage by saying it "stands alone."

2 Thess 1:8 reads, He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. Don't know what version you use but it's a little ad-libbed.
Yes we ALL will appear at the judgement seat. Rev 20:12-13, 15; And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done... Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
I think it's pretty clear that those in the Book of Life, receive Eternal Life, and those in the other books received judgement and eternal damnation based on what they had done ,and what was recorded in the other books.

How does any of that negate all men being judged according to their deeds? You are tap dancing.

Read the warning to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3 for God sure saw their works and called upon most of those churches to repent.

What we do matters.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Well as I HAVE supplied scripture, from the Bible, to that assertion and you have not, then I would suggest your statement here is personal opinion. However if you can supply scripture to support your assertion, then please feel free to share it with ALL of us.

Go reread all my posts, I have supplied abundant scripture.

Again, you mix up the act of salvation with the acts of walking in Christ. Your opening two statements even contradict this statement. What is it?
The words you use here indicate our WALK in Jesus, NOT salvation.

In response to...

You claimed that the deeds of the body have nothing to do with salvation when clearly there are scriptures which speak of "striving," "working together with God, "working fully to accomplish," of course all in the context of the leading of the grace of God.

As I mentioned earlier you incorrectly view salvation as some abstract package that you receive. The Bible teaches that salvation is a present state where one has been freed from the bondage and condemnation of sin. A person who is saved is not yielding to the passions and desires of their flesh and being drawn into sin. They have ceased from sin exactly a 1Pet 4:1-2 clearly states.

I have already dealt with those verses and properly exegeted them. Again you opine instead of exegeting.

Let's take a look shall we.

You misunderstand digger but I will try to clarify for you.

1 John 2:1-2
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

This confirms what he said earlier in 1 John 1:8-10. I would suggest you use a modern English version to help further with the proper vernacular of this part of scripture. ! John 5:18 states, We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. Doesn't quite convey the same message, does it?

1Joh 2:1 uses the word IF which means sin is not the forgone conclusion. You originally posted 1Joh 1:8 as evidence that sin IS a forgone conclusion and that those who say that they have ceased from sin are liars.

The sin John is referring to in 1Joh 2:1 is non-presumptuous sin. We know that because in 1Joh 3 he writes...

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The children of God are made manifest to the world by their deeds. They are not producing the fruit of sin in their lives.

The children of God are slaves to righteousness.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

A servant of sin is someone who yields to it as Paul clearly states in Rom 6:16.

Sin is yielded to in this fashion.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Those that are Christ's do not sin in this fashion because they have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Thus they don't yield their members to unrighteousness.

Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

Yet you teach the opposite because you used 1Joh 1:8 to refute my contention that the sins of the flesh stop. You used 1Joh 1:8 to imply that the sin cannot stop and that I was a liar.

Sorry, I guess I missed those. Your posts tend to get a little onerous. Maybe you should ask me again? I'd be more than happy to answer them.

Does a serial killer have to stop murdering people before God will grant him forgiveness?

Does a child molester have to stop molesting children before God will grant them forgiveness?

Does an individual have to forsake his viewing of porn before God will forgive them?

 

[Stan53]

You can disagree all you want. Rom 3:25 specifically says PAST SINS but you don't want to believe that. Rhetoric does not undo what the Bible plainly states. Paul meant what he said, but it doesn't line up with your theology so you reject the Bible in favour of your theology.

None of those scriptures you alluded to say that future sins are forgiven. You are attempting to read it into them through conjecture.

Let's look at the issue from "future sins forgiven in advance." That means you can sin and not surely die does it not? Of course it does. If the penalty has been paid then it means that there is no sin you could do that you could be punished lest double jeopardy result. Thus you must conclude unconditional eternal security if you are to remain consistent with your premise.

Now you are forced to explain away all the warnings and admonishes to hold fast and patiently endure, you have to explain away the scriptures that warn of being cut off for disobedience.

I am sure this is why you blew off my sin questions. In your mind no sin has to stop because Jesus already took care of sin and thus sin is not an issue anymore. A sinner just has to make sure he receives the package right? Confess, trust and receive has replaced repent, obey, strive, dig deep, count the cost, deny self, pick up your cross, go and sin no more. It is another gospel, a false gospel.

The one error of inborn sin necessitates a whole system of error.

I guess I'll have to quote the actual scripture from now on as you somehow don't understand them. It may be the version of the Bible you are using. Maybe you should seriously consider getting a modern English one, like the NIV or NASB or HSCB.

Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood —to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished — 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
What Paul is teaching here is that people who believed in God's promise of salvation and Jesus, had NOT been punished before Jesus came, even though they should have once they died. Verse 26 clearly teaches WHY He did this. That is the context. It was NOT Paul's intention to deal with future sin, He was explaining God's reasoning for giving His Son as a sacrifice of atonement. Paul did indeed mean what he said, you just don't get his meaning. I see no reason to call my exegesis of scripture MY theology unless you are being condescending or self-righteous?

Luke 1:68
Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel,
because he has come to his people and redeemed them.
Galatians 3:13-14
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.†14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Hebrews 9:14
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, (future tense) so that we may serve the living God!
Hebrews 9:24-28
For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgement, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Your "future sin" so-called logic is non-sequitor. Just as we have to accept our redemption provided by Christ, by acknowledging Him as our Saviour, we have to accept and confess that we have sinned when we do, in order to receive forgiveness. Just because we don't know the sins we will commit doesn't mean they can't be covered by the blood of Christ. God is perfect and would not provide conditional redemption. Our redemption is UNCONDITIONAL. Your lack of understanding it or accepting it, does NOT negate it.

I don't need to explain away any of God's word when it is clear. We must strive, run the race, work out our salvation. The Bible clearly teaches we can fall away. It clearly teaches that faith without works is dead. It also clearly teaches IF we sin, we have an Advocate, a Mediator to call on, and He(Jesus) goes before God to vouch for us.

Again, I did NOT blow off your sin questions. Ask them again, without a lot of clutter, and I will do my best to answer them. I am amazed though, that you know what my mind is thinking when in reality ONLY God knows. Are you purporting to be like God? Coming to an erroneous conclusion as regards my statements only serves to confirm you do NOT understand what God's word says in the scriptures I have provided. I'm sorry I couldn't be more helpful. I have not advocated replacing repent, obey, strive, dig deep, count the cost, deny self, pick up your cross, go and sin no more.

I do have one question for you. When was the last time YOU sinned?

I sinned today, and I confessed it immediately.

 

[Eventide]

Re: O wretched man that I am...

You are lumping all sin into the one bucket.

There are sins not unto death and sins unto death.

I can understand that although you're avoiding the obvious here...

I'd like to know how you're sinning if your old man is dead ?

We know that Christ can't sin and that there is no sin in Him... So when you sin it can't be the new man.. It must be the old man.

See how easy that was...

 

[Eventide]

Re: the sting of death is sin...

I stand corrected after looking at the context.

Well, you don't see this very often around here.. I commend you for that !

And so it's obvious... You're going to die just like every last one of us in Adam because you're no different.