The problem is this person (apostle) says we don't have the full gospel and that means if we don't follow that church's doctrine we're not going to dwell in heaven or hell, but outside the doors of heaven in regret.
Did I get that right?
Meeting a real apostle, today?
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The problem is this person (apostle) says we don't have the full gospel and that means if we don't follow that church's doctrine we're not going to dwell in heaven or hell, but outside the doors of heaven in regret.
Did I get that right?
A
Alabaster
Guest
There is your first clue that he is not genuine. You needn't look further. Praise God, it is obvious in this case!
interesting i forgot about mathias. maybe he was killed and paul took his place.
but hmm food for thought.
A
Alabaster
Guest
Act 1:21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Act 1:22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us--one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection."
Act 1:23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24 And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen
Act 1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." (ESV)
This suggests that for someone to even be considered for an Apostle required that they had accompanied the eleven "during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out" among them, likely one of the seventy. Obviously impossible for modern so-called apostles.
All modern day apostles are either self-appointed or appointed by those who are self-appointed.
In a very real sense, we are all apostles, "ones who are sent." In another sense, missionaries are true modern day apostles. But these self-proclaimed apostles puff themselves up and make themselves out to be equal to the first apostles, which is a grave error. It is nothing more than vanity, pride, selfish ambition, greed, and lust for power. The Bible says such men will come along, and come along they have.
Act 1:22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us--one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection."
Act 1:23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsabbas, who was also called Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24 And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen
Act 1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." (ESV)
This suggests that for someone to even be considered for an Apostle required that they had accompanied the eleven "during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out" among them, likely one of the seventy. Obviously impossible for modern so-called apostles.
All modern day apostles are either self-appointed or appointed by those who are self-appointed.
In a very real sense, we are all apostles, "ones who are sent." In another sense, missionaries are true modern day apostles. But these self-proclaimed apostles puff themselves up and make themselves out to be equal to the first apostles, which is a grave error. It is nothing more than vanity, pride, selfish ambition, greed, and lust for power. The Bible says such men will come along, and come along they have.
because, in america i havent seen what you say as only pastors do that.
and most "apostles" are so far out there, that i would say that i would have to see it to believe it.
A
Alabaster
Guest
The bible tells us that there is such a calling, a gifting called apostle and that Holy Spirit anoints these individuals for ministry in the Church of Jesus Christ and will do so until he comes again, when the ministry will no longer be useful.
1 Corinthians 12:27-31
27 All of you together are Christ’s body, and each of you is a part of it. 28 Here are some of the parts God has appointed for the church:
first are apostles,
second are prophets,
third are teachers,
then those who do miracles,
those who have the gift of healing,
those who can help others,
those who have the gift of leadership,
those who speak in unknown languages.
29 Are we all apostles? Are we all prophets? Are we all teachers? Do we all have the power to do miracles? 30 Do we all have the gift of healing? Do we all have the ability to speak in unknown languages? Do we all have the ability to interpret unknown languages? Of course not! 31 So you should earnestly desire the most helpful gifts.
But now let me show you a way of life that is best of all.
1 Corinthians 12:27-31
27 All of you together are Christ’s body, and each of you is a part of it. 28 Here are some of the parts God has appointed for the church:
first are apostles,
second are prophets,
third are teachers,
then those who do miracles,
those who have the gift of healing,
those who can help others,
those who have the gift of leadership,
those who speak in unknown languages.
29 Are we all apostles? Are we all prophets? Are we all teachers? Do we all have the power to do miracles? 30 Do we all have the gift of healing? Do we all have the ability to speak in unknown languages? Do we all have the ability to interpret unknown languages? Of course not! 31 So you should earnestly desire the most helpful gifts.
But now let me show you a way of life that is best of all.
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A
Alabaster
Guest
Apostles are a rare bunch, and many of them either are pastors or begin as pastors. They are usually pastors to pastors.
we call them senior pastors here as some churches have 4 or 5 pastors. ie calvary chapel ft.lauderdale
I think it is error to equate this gifting with the office held by the first apostles. Like I said, missionaries are the closest to being what the original apostles were.
A
Alabaster
Guest
Senior pastors?
Usually someone today who is gifted as an apostle is over more than one congregation.
We have 8 pastors at our church, but our senior pastor is not an apostle--but he has one over him, who is over many other pastors working in various works all over the continent.
A
Alabaster
Guest
Some missionaries could be easily gifted with the apostolic gift. Usually, though, they are sent or placed by one who has it.
S
Strangelove
Guest
Are you talking about the folks at Ministers Fellowship International?
Like Frank Demazio and Dick Iverson?
Ministers Fellowship International
Hi, Jason. I just read you comment (nothing else) and wanted to quick reply. You know there is a difference between the Apostles of the Lamb (the twelve) and the Office of Apostle, right?
Tell ya what... I Berean Race ya... see who can prove there are more than a baker's dozen (including the fallen Judas and replacement dude) first. Let's say Paul doesn't count 'cause he's special, right? He said he was "born out of time" and was personally selected by the Risen Christ. There are more though...
Let's see... Apostle means "Sent one". There seems to be (this is what I notice, not dogma) accompanying Gifts of the Holy Spirit (maybe all?) in the Apostles. Certainly they are Spirit Filled. If they are in the ministry of Church Building... When we read about how Peter and others replaced Judas we know that they were looking for an "Apostle of the Lamb". They are special, must have witnessed Jesus' ministry from the beginning and throughout. Must have walked with and remained with Him. Trying to find other qualifies to help our Bible race (assuming I'm not disqualified for false start and jumping the gun) ...
Jesus is the Chief Apostle
The Gospel of Mark states that Jesus initially sent out these twelve in pairs (Mark 6:7-13, Luke 9:1-6), to towns in Galilee. They were to heal the sick and drive out demons, and in the Gospel of Matthew to raise the dead, some scholars read this more metaphorically as instructions to heal the spiritually sick and thus to drive away wicked behavior. They are later described as having been commissioned to to preach the Gospel to the world, regardless of whether Jew or Gentile. The word that was used had Hebrew roots so prophets were not the same as one "fully empowered to act on behalf of the sender" (more on this later if you want).
- Simon Peter,
- James
- John
- Andrew
- Matthew
- Simon the Zealot
- Bartholomew
- Philip, Thomas
- James of Alphaeus
- Judas
- and Judas Iscariot which betrayed Him
- OOPS - one more, just looked at the numbered list - I need to edit this, lol -- put two on line #8, sheesh - okay, leaving it...
So, excluding Judas and including Mathias (That's the 12 Apostles of the Lamb)
Then comes Paul totaling 14 (counting Jesus, the Chief Apostle too).
Romans 16 describes Pheobe as a "deacon" or "servant" so it appears she is not an Apostle per se. Don't forget James the Lord's brother (Galatians 1:19), Barnabas (Acts 14:14) and, depending on your degree of Greek study, Andronicus and Junia (Romans 16:7). Paul seems to include Apollos (1 Corinthians 4:6,9), and it would not be that much of a stretch to also include Silas.
Acts 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work where unto I have called them. So that would mean there were more than one called after Paul.. or before Paul I should say according to Acts 11.. So Paul and Barnabas labored in the same ministry.
My personal thought is that we will see more of the office of Apostle (fully sanctioned and operating in power) as the time gets closer, until we all come in the unity of faith... I like this subject (as you can tell). My mind goes back almost 40 years to a a Greek word study combining "Apostle" and "Mystery". Look at Romans 16:7 calling Andronicus and Junia apostles, then cf. 1Thess 1:1 (showing the Paul, Silvanus, and Timotheous wrote) with 1Thess 2:6 (showing where those same three writers called themselves "apostles of Christ").
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A
Alabaster
Guest
Yes. There's more to it than that, but that's what he says in a nutshell.
Yes but ur judging that's wrong based on your fundamental believe. He's calling that fundamental belief into question. What you say sounds like a simple open/shut case but it's not that simple.
His followers would look at u and say "There is your first clue that you are wrong. Your guided by ur own interpretations of the Word and not from an Apostle, who has divine insight."
So how is your reasoning different from theirs? If their reasoning is wrong, then isn't urs wrong too?
If we say "we are right because of our reasons" then we're no different from their reasoning. We must need more reason than just "our reasons" Because after all... the Truth is not relative, it's absolute. We must make sure "our reasons" are in agreement with the Truth and not just "our reasons"
maybe... but then we can't really speculate.
.. But Paul wasn't there "during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out" either and he's considered an Apostle.
Well Jesus can still show Himself to people even in modern day. How then is that impossible if you are directly called by Jesus? Unless you believe Jesus would never show Himself to anyone in modern day. Then in that case, what are you basing that belief based on?
For example like Paul, who was directly called by Jesus. If you ask him, he would identify himself as an apostle. For those who believes he is directly called would consider him as not self-appointed. For theos who believes he made it up would consider him as self-appointed. So how can u tell the difference for this guy? We weren't there when he was "called"
Your definition of apostle is "ones who are sent" R u sure that's all there is to it? The bible talks about pastors and preachers and so on. They can be all considered "sent" and yet bible gives them distinction.
Seems like your fundamental argument is that impossible for a modern day person to be similar to those apostles in the biblical days. What are you basing this belief on?
Please excuse my asking of "what r u basing this on?" all the time. I rather know y i'm agreeing with u instead of just agreeing.
So... even if he's legit, but you never get to see him, you don't believe it?
u use "rare" meaning they do exist? I mean in modern day.
BTW, i know the world has it's fill of fake ones. But that's not enough reason to mark them all fake.
Bible doesn't make a distinction between pastors and senior pastors. But bible does make distinction between apostles and other roles. So in modern day, the existence of pastors doesn't necessarily prove non-existence of apostles.
By the way, the apostle in question here is not denying that he is the only apostle today. He says there could be more like him elsewhere. He also wouldn't mind to contact them if he can. So... it's not like hes saying "listen to me and only me." This actually supports his attitude of "i am speaking what God wants me to say, and others like me would say the same because we're all speaking from the same God."
@Sparrowhawke
Office of Apostle? I don't hear much about this. How does one become apostle by this office then? Are there a list of requirements? Are they anything like the list that Alabaster posted here?
In the Office of Apostle, who determines these requirements and who verify these requirements are met?
@Sparrowhawke
Office of Apostle? I don't hear much about this. How does one become apostle by this office then? Are there a list of requirements? Are they anything like the list that Alabaster posted here?
In the Office of Apostle, who determines these requirements and who verify these requirements are met?
RUN - RUN AWAY!!!!
"Their leader is claimed to be an apostle who have directly heard God’s voice/instructions."
Big hairy deal - I've heard God's instructions myself through the ministry of the Holy Spirit - ALL Christians are capable of "Hearing from God" since His presence dwells within. But I'm not an "Apostle" - just a "Reasonably NORMAL Christian".
"Gospel we’ve (today’s Christians) received is incomplete"
Actually it's totally complete, but God DOES continue to lead us into His truths. That's the job of the Holy SPirit:
1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
"Those who believe in God with the incomplete gospel will not go to hell, but cannot enter heaven either. They will reside outside of heaven, regretting their life."
This is just plain STUPIDITY - totally unsupported in the Bible. If the Prophet's "god" told him this, then it's not THE God who's leading him.
"A church rejects an apostle’s leadership is not properly guided by God. In other words, all of today’s churches who know of his (the apostle) existence must let him lead."
This is the MAIN INDICATION - RED FLAG that you're dealing with a CULT - the 'ol "Touch not the Lord's anointed" DOMINATION language.
RUN AWAY!!!!
Baptize must be full body under water, otherwise not baptized.
Baptism by immersion does appear to be be the Biblical pattern. But "Baptism isn't a "salvific issue" in and of itself, and even the early Christians "Sprinkled" depending on conditions - but FAVORED "Living water" - i.e. lakes or rivers to "get 'er done". The Cowboy Churches use a galvanized Horse tank - works just as well.
Worship and prayer must include speaking/singing in tongues
Sounds like you might be tangled up with "Oneness Pentecostals". In my Cuurch (the Assemblies of God in DeSoto, TX), we sing in English, and pray all together in English, "Spanglish" (it's Texas after all) and tongues.
We DON'T tie a "MUST INCLUDE" clause on ANY of that. being told what you MUST DO is an indication of a TOXIC Church that practices DOMINATION of its congregation. RUN AWAY!!!
"Sounds like a cult? well I think so."
I think so too!! - RUN AWAY!!!!
"However they have bible verses to backup everything they say."
OF COURSE THEY DO!!!! Cults always have "Bible verses" to back up EVERYTHING according to their interpretations. That's the way the "Theology game" is played!!
"Discuss with them shows they know the bible very well, better than I. I’m having trouble determining where their teachings are wrong. If I can't find fault in their belief, does that mean they are right?"
NO!!! It means you can't "see" through their smoke screen - BUT it DOES indicate that YOU are not as Biblically savvy as you should be as a Christian.
And being Biblically ignorant, makes you "fair game" for cults and deceivers.
The solution is simple - get your bible and prayerfully READ IT - a couple of times. I'd recommend the "Living Paraphrase" for the first time through, since it reads easy and fast, and will give you a good exposure to the WHOLE "Word".
WHen you get a "Feel" for what it's teaching both in the "Letter" and the Spirit", then seeing through groups like the one you're tangled up with gets REALLY EASY.
OH did I mention that right NOW you should RUN AWAY!!!! - and don't look back!!!
"Their leader is claimed to be an apostle who have directly heard God’s voice/instructions."
Big hairy deal - I've heard God's instructions myself through the ministry of the Holy Spirit - ALL Christians are capable of "Hearing from God" since His presence dwells within. But I'm not an "Apostle" - just a "Reasonably NORMAL Christian".
"Gospel we’ve (today’s Christians) received is incomplete"
Actually it's totally complete, but God DOES continue to lead us into His truths. That's the job of the Holy SPirit:
1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
"Those who believe in God with the incomplete gospel will not go to hell, but cannot enter heaven either. They will reside outside of heaven, regretting their life."
This is just plain STUPIDITY - totally unsupported in the Bible. If the Prophet's "god" told him this, then it's not THE God who's leading him.
"A church rejects an apostle’s leadership is not properly guided by God. In other words, all of today’s churches who know of his (the apostle) existence must let him lead."
This is the MAIN INDICATION - RED FLAG that you're dealing with a CULT - the 'ol "Touch not the Lord's anointed" DOMINATION language.
RUN AWAY!!!!
Baptize must be full body under water, otherwise not baptized.
Baptism by immersion does appear to be be the Biblical pattern. But "Baptism isn't a "salvific issue" in and of itself, and even the early Christians "Sprinkled" depending on conditions - but FAVORED "Living water" - i.e. lakes or rivers to "get 'er done". The Cowboy Churches use a galvanized Horse tank - works just as well.
Worship and prayer must include speaking/singing in tongues
Sounds like you might be tangled up with "Oneness Pentecostals". In my Cuurch (the Assemblies of God in DeSoto, TX), we sing in English, and pray all together in English, "Spanglish" (it's Texas after all) and tongues.
We DON'T tie a "MUST INCLUDE" clause on ANY of that. being told what you MUST DO is an indication of a TOXIC Church that practices DOMINATION of its congregation. RUN AWAY!!!
"Sounds like a cult? well I think so."
I think so too!! - RUN AWAY!!!!
"However they have bible verses to backup everything they say."
OF COURSE THEY DO!!!! Cults always have "Bible verses" to back up EVERYTHING according to their interpretations. That's the way the "Theology game" is played!!
"Discuss with them shows they know the bible very well, better than I. I’m having trouble determining where their teachings are wrong. If I can't find fault in their belief, does that mean they are right?"
NO!!! It means you can't "see" through their smoke screen - BUT it DOES indicate that YOU are not as Biblically savvy as you should be as a Christian.
And being Biblically ignorant, makes you "fair game" for cults and deceivers.
The solution is simple - get your bible and prayerfully READ IT - a couple of times. I'd recommend the "Living Paraphrase" for the first time through, since it reads easy and fast, and will give you a good exposure to the WHOLE "Word".
WHen you get a "Feel" for what it's teaching both in the "Letter" and the Spirit", then seeing through groups like the one you're tangled up with gets REALLY EASY.
OH did I mention that right NOW you should RUN AWAY!!!! - and don't look back!!!
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I think it's fair to say that there are those who teach the apostolic 'faith once delivered to the saints' (Jude).
This is not the same as saying there are actual apostles, though.
This is not the same as saying there are actual apostles, though.
Depends on your "Definition" of "Apostle"
IF your definition is "one who met Jesus during his physical life on earth" then Paul isn't an "apostle" either (as many believed at the time), and there haven't been any since Jesus ascended.
But since the "Office" of an "Apostle" is mentioned in the 5-fold ministries, then it's reasonable to believe that there STILL are "Apostles" today, and always have been.
IF your definition is "one who met Jesus during his physical life on earth" then Paul isn't an "apostle" either (as many believed at the time), and there haven't been any since Jesus ascended.
But since the "Office" of an "Apostle" is mentioned in the 5-fold ministries, then it's reasonable to believe that there STILL are "Apostles" today, and always have been.