No answers for problem of evil

[OzSpen]

In another thread, wondering (also include JLB) stated:

I'll deal with these issues only one at a time:

1. If we go back to the beginning of time "if we want to go back far enough, we find that there is no real answer to evil" because in the Garden there was "the tree of good and evil. Where did the evil come from?"

Gen 1:31 (NIV) states: "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day". Then there was the challenge by God to Adam:

And the Lord God commanded the man [Adam], “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die” (Gen 2:16-17 NIV).

It literally was not 'the tree of good and evil' but 'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil' OR 'the tree of the knowing of good and evil' (Lenski 1942:127). There is only one tree. The meaning here is similar to Deut 6:4-6 and Matt 22:36-38: The call is for all human beings, especially believers to love and obey the Creator God.

These 2 verses are the climax of the whole human race. What happened here flowed on to all human beings. God did not make a tree of evil. He made one tree and there was nothing especially different with this tree. In the text there is no indication this tree was different from any other tree. What was different was that Adam was confronted with a choice - thus indicating the first human being had the ability, given by God, to agree with God or disagree with him.

Francis Schaeffer put it this way:

He could just as well have said "don't cross this stream; don't climb this mountain." He is saying, "Believe me and stand in your place as a creature, not as one who is autonomous. Believe me and love me as a creature to his Creator, and all will be well. This is the place for which I have made you (Schaeffer 1972:72).

Evil is a result of the risky gift of free will. When God promised 'death' would come because of disobedience, he did not refer to physical death as Adam & Eve continued to live and reproduce. So 'death' here refers to inner spiritual separation from God.

We must not overlook the fact that this account in Gen 2 confirms the fact that God gave Adam the gift of freedom of the will.

See, 'Who is responsible for evil?' (Ravi Zacharias)

I'll deal with these topics from wondering later:

1. Lucifer fell from grace because of pride: "Where did this sin of pride come from?"
2. "How is it that A and E ate of the fruit if they were still innocent and had not eaten from the tree yet? WHAT made them eat?"
3. "I still haven't found the answer and most believe we cannot really know this."

Oz

Works consulted
Leupold, H C 1942. Exposition of Genesis, vol 1 (chapters 1-19). London: Evangelical Press.
Schaeffer, F A 1972. Genesis in space and time. London: Hodder and Stoughton (1976. Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press).

 

[GodsGrace]

In another thread, wondering (also include JLB) stated:

I'll deal with these issues only one at a time:

1. If we go back to the begging of time "if we want to go back far enough, we find that there is no real answer to evil" because in the Garden there was "the tree of good and evil. Where did the evil come from?"

Gen 1:31 (NIV) states: "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day". Then there was the challenge by God to Adam:


It literally was not 'the tree of good and evil' but 'the tree of the knowledge of good and evil' OR 'the tree of the knowing of good and evil' (Lenski 1942:127). There is only one tree. The meaning here is similar to Deut 6:4-6 and Matt 22:36-38: The call is for all human beings, especially believers to love and obey the Creator God.

These 2 verses are the climax of the whole human race. What happened here flowed on to all human beings. God did not make a tree of evil. He made one tree and there was nothing especially different with this tree. In the text there is no indication this tree was different from any other tree. What was different was that Adam was confronted with a choice - thus indicating the first human being had the ability, given by God, to agree with God or disagree with him.

Francis Schaeffer put it this way:


Evil is a result of the risky gift of free will. When God promised 'death' would come because of disobedience, he did not refer to physical death as Adam & Eve continued to live and reproduce. So 'death' here refers to inner spiritual separation from God.

We must not overlook the fact that this account in Gen 2 confirms the fact that God gave Adam the gift of freedom of the will.

See, 'Who is responsible for evil?' (Ravi Zacharias)

I'll deal with these topics from wondering later:

1. Lucifer fell from grace because of pride: "Where did this sin of pride come from?"
2. "How is it that A and E ate of the fruit if they were still innocent and had not eaten from the tree yet? WHAT made them eat?"
3. "I still haven't found the answer and most believe we cannot really know this."

Oz

Works consulted
Leupold, H C 1942. Exposition of Genesis, vol 1 (chapters 1-19). London: Evangelical Press.
Schaeffer, F A 1972. Genesis in space and time. London: Hodder and Stoughton (1976. Downers Grove, Illinois: InterVarsity Press).

Hey Oz,,,
I have to disagree with Francis Schaeffer.

Free will is involved in evil in many ways...but he still doesn't answer where it came from. HOW was evil embued in man?

Indeed the answer is found in the tree you're speaking of that was found in the Garden. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Before man ate of it he knew only good. God warned man not to eat of that particular tree because he then would also know evil.

If man had crossed a stream, he might have gotten we, but that would have been all.

No,,,it is the KNOWLEDGE of evil and the unpacking of it from the knowledge that Adam gained that caused it to spread to man and to nature.

But wait. The tree was already in the Garden when Adam was formed. It already contained the knowledge of good and evil....alas, back to the drawing board.

Free will can cause some harm and some bad things to happen...but how does free will cause a hurricane to happen? It cannot. Even in Romans we read how nature itself is waiting for the return of Jesus to be released from its suffering.. Romans 8:19....

I love Ravi Zacharias and have heard him explain suffering and evil many times. He doesn't have the answer either.

 

[OzSpen]

Hey Oz,,,
I have to disagree with Francis Schaeffer.

Free will is involved in evil in many ways...but he still doesn't answer where it came from. HOW was evil embued in man?

Indeed the answer is found in the tree you're speaking of that was found in the Garden. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Before man ate of it he knew only good. God warned man not to eat of that particular tree because he then would also know evil.

If man had crossed a stream, he might have gotten we, but that would have been all.

No,,,it is the KNOWLEDGE of evil and the unpacking of it from the knowledge that Adam gained that caused it to spread to man and to nature.

But wait. The tree was already in the Garden when Adam was formed. It already contained the knowledge of good and evil....alas, back to the drawing board.

Free will can cause some harm and some bad things to happen...but how does free will cause a hurricane to happen? It cannot. Even in Romans we read how nature itself is waiting for the return of Jesus to be released from its suffering.. Romans 8:19....

I love Ravi Zacharias and have heard him explain suffering and evil many times. He doesn't have the answer either.

wondering,

Hey Oz,,,
I have to disagree with Francis Schaeffer.

Free will is involved in evil in many ways...but he still doesn't answer where it came from. HOW was evil embued in man?

Indeed the answer is found in the tree you're speaking of that was found in the Garden. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Before man ate of it he knew only good. God warned man not to eat of that particular tree because he then would also know evil.

If man had crossed a stream, he might have gotten we, but that would have been all.

No,,,it is the KNOWLEDGE of evil and the unpacking of it from the knowledge that Adam gained that caused it to spread to man and to nature.

But wait. The tree was already in the Garden when Adam was formed. It already contained the knowledge of good and evil....alas, back to the drawing board.

Free will can cause some harm and some bad things to happen...but how does free will cause a hurricane to happen? It cannot. Even in Romans we read how nature itself is waiting for the return of Jesus to be released from its suffering.. Romans 8:19....

I love Ravi Zacharias and have heard him explain suffering and evil many times. He doesn't have the answer either.

wondering,

How do you define 'evil' from a biblical perspective?

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,



wondering,

How do you define 'evil' from a biblical perspective?

Oz

Anything that is not good is evil.
A person could be evil or do evil things (bad things).
Nature is effected by evil...hurricanes, earthquakes.
If only persons were evil and not nature...THEN, we could say that our free will causes evil to occur...but since it affects nature, which we have no control over, then evil must be something else. The evil F. Schaeffer is speaking of is human evil that is caused by us when we sin or do something to harm another even though we may not be aware of it.

Adam and Eve knew only good when they were placed in the Garden. God did not want them to know evil. Thus the command to not eat of the tree of this knowledge.

But evil already existed...the snake was already in the garden. The fallen angels were abolished from heaven. How did THEY fall? Where did that evil pride come from?

I toyed with the idea of dualism for a while (not long)...but decided that a God that creates evil could not be the God that Jesus "represented". I don't believe the bible offers an answer.
I do believe kids need to learn the lessons you're preparing for them....but one day they might realize the question goes much deeper.

 

[OzSpen]

Anything that is not good is evil.
A person could be evil or do evil things (bad things).
Nature is effected by evil...hurricanes, earthquakes.
If only persons were evil and not nature...THEN, we could say that our free will causes evil to occur...but since it affects nature, which we have no control over, then evil must be something else. The evil F. Schaeffer is speaking of is human evil that is caused by us when we sin or do something to harm another even though we may not be aware of it.

Adam and Eve knew only good when they were placed in the Garden. God did not want them to know evil. Thus the command to not eat of the tree of this knowledge.

But evil already existed...the snake was already in the garden. The fallen angels were abolished from heaven. How did THEY fall? Where did that evil pride come from?

I toyed with the idea of dualism for a while (not long)...but decided that a God that creates evil could not be the God that Jesus "represented". I don't believe the bible offers an answer.
I do believe kids need to learn the lessons you're preparing for them....but one day they might realize the question goes much deeper.

Nature is effected by evil...hurricanes, earthquakes.

That's not what Isa 45:7 (NIV) states:

I form the light and create darkness,​

I bring prosperity and create disaster;​

I, the Lord, do all these things.​

What were other consequences of Adam & Eve's sin of evil. We don't have to guess with God:

To Adam he said, ‘Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, “You must not eat from it,”​

​

‘Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return’ (Gen 3:17-19 NIV).​

So all the plant and human diseases we experience are a direct result of Adam and Eve's choice to disobey God and commit sin. Personal and corporate sin are direct results of A & E's actions. Disease in the planet life came because of A & E's actions.

Evil not only resulted in evil consequences but it was implanted in the minds of A & E:
'you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die' (Gen 2:17 NIV). God's intent and the actions that followed demonstrated Adam could 'certainly die', i.e. he would be separated from God.

If only persons were evil and not nature...THEN, we could say that our free will causes evil to occur...but since it affects nature, which we have no control over, then evil must be something else.

To the contrary. Since A & E committed evil actions that affected their nature AND consequences in nature, it is legitimate to state that the flow-on effect of A & E's sin - a free will action - was the diseases in nature, including the consequences of my rheumatic heart disease & 5 heart valve replacements. How I wish A & E had not brought this onto those who suffer in this life.

I think you underestimate the consequences of A & E's sin and its impact on humanity and ecology.

I agree that Schaeffer referred to moral sin bu that act of eating had cosmological consequences.

I'll deal with fallen angels later. However their falling as free will angels won't affect the consequences of A & E's sin.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Anything that is not good is evil.
A person could be evil or do evil things (bad things).

wondering,

Is putting oil into my Mitsubishi vehicle good or evil?

I'll have cooked king prawns for Christmas lunch. Is eating prawns evil?

I wear a coloured singlet and shorts in the Qld summer heat. Is that evil or good?

How about playing the guitar, drums or banjo?

Is having a wine over dinner doing an evil thing?

I'd love to find another woman for companionship in my older age? Is it evil to have that desire?

I prefer to read modern Bible translations (ERV, NLT, NIV) to the KJV. Is that evil?

Is going to a night club evil?

How about lunch at a local tavern?

Oz

 

[JLB]

I'll deal with these issues only one at a time:

1. If we go back to the beginning of time "if we want to go back far enough, we find that there is no real answer to evil" because in the Garden there was "the tree of good and evil. Where did the evil come from?"

Relationship with God, and obeying Him has always been the answer.


Freewill is not the problem, as much as, entertaining the devil and those who are corrupt, allowing what is in them, to defile us, and therefore weaken us to make ungodly decisions.


When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” Mark 7:17-23

• What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.
• All these evil things come from within and defile a man.

When Eve began a dialog with Satan, she became weakened, by allowing what was in the devil to come into her and defile her, in which she entertained evil.


Jesus on the other hand, simply gave the devil the word of truth, not engaging in conversation.

• But He answered and said, “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” Matthew 4:4

• Jesus said to him, “It is written again, You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ” Matthew 4:7

• Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” Matthew 4:10

Keep your heart with all diligence,
For out of it spring the issues of life.
Proverbs 4:23




JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Relationship with God, and obeying Him has always been the answer.

Freewill is not the problem, as much as, entertaining the devil and those who are corrupt, allowing what is in them, to defile us, and therefore weaken us to make ungodly decisions.

When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” Mark 7:17-23

• What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.
• All these evil things come from within and defile a man.

When Eve began a dialog with Satan, she became weakened, by allowing what was in the devil to come into her and defile her, in which she entertained evil.

Jesus on the other hand, simply gave the devil the word of truth, not engaging in conversation.

• But He answered and said, “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” Matthew 4:4
• Jesus said to him, “It is written again, You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ” Matthew 4:7
• Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” Matthew 4:10

Keep your heart with all diligence,
For out of it spring the issues of life.
Proverbs 4:23

JLB

JLB,

That's an excellent exposition, with which I agree.

My understanding is that evil amounts to thoughts and actions contrary to God's commandments.

I think that wondering is grappling with this: How could A & E, created 'good', commit evil?

My understanding is that these two 'good' people had within them the ability to obey or disobey God. This ability was given to them by God. How do we know this was the case? The Book of Genesis in chapters 1-3 demonstrates this was so. They chose the latter and sin/evil entered the human race. I am convinced this is a faithful exposition of the origin of evil.

This does not address calamities such as tsanamis, cyclones, hurricanes, typhoons, tornadoes, floods and disastrous fires. These are explained under a different dimension of 'evil' that I hope to get to.

I'm convinced that is an explanation of evil entering the human race, as long as one understands it as violation of God's laws and experiencing the consequences biologically and ecologically as God said it would happen. We are in a world wrecked by sin/evil, all started by A & E. This evil is demonstrated in evil actions that flow from evil hearts.

Jesus stated it so well in Mark 7:20-23 (NIV):

'He [Jesus] went on: ‘What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come – sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.’​

The same principle operated in the beginning with A & E as for us today. We choose to do good or evil but that choice originates from within. God made A & E with the potential for doing good or evil. You and I have the same God-given ability to choose for or against Him. To choose against Him is to commit evil.

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

That's not what Isa 45:7 (NIV) states:

I form the light and create darkness,​

I bring prosperity and create disaster;​

I, the Lord, do all these things.​

What were other consequences of Adam & Eve's sin of evil. We don't have to guess with God:

To Adam he said, ‘Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, “You must not eat from it,”​

​

‘Cursed is the ground because of you;​

through painful toil you will eat food from it​

all the days of your life.​

18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,​

and you will eat the plants of the field.​

19 By the sweat of your brow​

you will eat your food​

until you return to the ground,​

since from it you were taken;​

for dust you are​

and to dust you will return’ (Gen 3:17-19 NIV).​

So all the plant and human diseases we experience are a direct result of Adam and Eve's choice to disobey God and commit sin. Personal and corporate sin are direct results of A & E's actions. Disease in the planet life came because of A & E's actions.

Evil not only resulted in evil consequences but it was implanted in the minds of A & E:
'you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die' (Gen 2:17 NIV). God's intent and the actions that followed demonstrated Adam could 'certainly die', i.e. he would be separated from God.



To the contrary. Since A & E committed evil actions that affected their nature AND consequences in nature, it is legitimate to state that the flow-on effect of A & E's sin - a free will action - was the diseases in nature, including the consequences of my rheumatic heart disease & 5 heart valve replacements. How I wish A & E had not brought this onto those who suffer in this life.

I think you underestimate the consequences of A & E's sin and its impact on humanity and ecology.

I agree that Schaeffer referred to moral sin bu that act of eating had cosmological consequences.

I'll deal with fallen angels later. However their falling as free will angels won't affect the consequences of A & E's sin.

Oz

I agree with all of the above.

When I was about 10 yrs old, and going to religious instruction (as it was called then), I became VERY angry with Adam and Eve for eating that fruit! I sometimes wonder how I stayed a believer in God after all that anger.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

Is putting oil into my Mitsubishi vehicle good or evil?

I'll have cooked king prawns for Christmas lunch. Is eating prawns evil?

I wear a coloured singlet and shorts in the Qld summer heat. Is that evil or good?

How about playing the guitar, drums or banjo?

Is having a wine over dinner doing an evil thing?

I'd love to find another woman for companionship in my older age? Is it evil to have that desire?

I prefer to read modern Bible translations (ERV, NLT, NIV) to the KJV. Is that evil?

Is going to a night club evil?

How about lunch at a local tavern?

Oz

Oz, I found the above pretty funny.
As it turns out...all could be either good or evil.

Let's take one at a time:

Putting oil into your Mitsubishi is good....unless it's the wrong kind of oil -- I hear that could be damaging to the car.

Cooked Prawns for Christmas. This is very good and I might join you! Unless, of course, you eat too many and get a tummy ache.

Shorts in summer. Very good idea. Can't think of any drawback to this...I'll bet there is one though.

Playing the guitar is great,,,also the banjo or drums or whatever. Unless the guitar is being played by Dio's band -- then I'd have to question it. (also other bands).

I love wine with my two main meals of the day. It's not evil. Jesus drank wine (which many churches deny). Just as long as you don't have toooooo much.

It is not good for man to be alone. It's great to have a mate in life.
But that desire COULD be adulteress if we desire more than one.

Any bible translation is OK. Some do tend toward specific doctrine with which I may or may not agree --- but any version could get one saved and any version can allow one to get to know Jesus.

Going to a night club is not evil....
Of course it depends on what kind of night club.

Lunch at a local tavern....no problem, as long as you don't love food and make it an idol.

Yes, pretty much, I believe anything could be used for good or evil.

Of course, the above does not get us any closer to knowing WHAT originally caused evil....not like I'm trying to understand it anymore.

 

[GodsGrace]

Relationship with God, and obeying Him has always been the answer.


Freewill is not the problem, as much as, entertaining the devil and those who are corrupt, allowing what is in them, to defile us, and therefore weaken us to make ungodly decisions.


When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” Mark 7:17-23

• What comes out of a man, that defiles a man.
• All these evil things come from within and defile a man.

When Eve began a dialog with Satan, she became weakened, by allowing what was in the devil to come into her and defile her, in which she entertained evil.


Jesus on the other hand, simply gave the devil the word of truth, not engaging in conversation.

• But He answered and said, “It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ” Matthew 4:4

• Jesus said to him, “It is written again, You shall not tempt the Lord your God.’ ” Matthew 4:7

• Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’ ” Matthew 4:10

Keep your heart with all diligence,
For out of it spring the issues of life.
Proverbs 4:23




JLB

Great post, as usual.

I agree that free will is not the problem...
Definitely not the problem of where evil originated.
If there's a choice between good and evil...it means evil exists...but what brought it into existence...Rhetorical question, no answer required.

The way you think is amazing....!

 

[GodsGrace]

JLB,

That's an excellent exposition, with which I agree.

My understanding is that evil amounts to thoughts and actions contrary to God's commandments.

I think that wondering is grappling with this: How could A & E, created 'good', commit evil?

My understanding is that these two 'good' people had within them the ability to obey or disobey God. This ability was given to them by God. How do we know this was the case? The Book of Genesis in chapters 1-3 demonstrates this was so. They chose the latter and sin/evil entered the human race. I am convinced this is a faithful exposition of the origin of evil.

This does not address calamities such as tsanamis, cyclones, hurricanes, typhoons, tornadoes, floods and disastrous fires. These are explained under a different dimension of 'evil' that I hope to get to.

I'm convinced that is an explanation of evil entering the human race, as long as one understands it as violation of God's laws and experiencing the consequences biologically and ecologically as God said it would happen. We are in a world wrecked by sin/evil, all started by A & E. This evil is demonstrated in evil actions that flow from evil hearts.

Jesus stated it so well in Mark 7:20-23 (NIV):

'He [Jesus] went on: ‘What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21 For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come – sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22 adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and defile a person.’​

The same principle operated in the beginning with A & E as for us today. We choose to do good or evil but that choice originates from within. God made A & E with the potential for doing good or evil. You and I have the same God-given ability to choose for or against Him. To choose against Him is to commit evil.

Oz

Very clear post Oz...I like your conversation and JLB s conversation much more than I care for mine!

The reason is, basically, because I no longer ask myself where evil originated. Adam and Evil cause me no problem....As you stated above, they had within them the ability to choose to obey or disobey. They chose to disobey. And why was this choice even available to them? THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

I know a priest that is a theologian (Catholic) and also speaks Hebrew and Koine Greek and taught all of the above and he not only has no answer but wonders, at times, why God even made us knowing the hardship we would have to face.

This is because he's going way back before Adam and Eve to the beginning. In the beginning GOD CREATED...did He also create evil?

This might be interesting for some reading along -- or maybe not.
I accept what God has done and what His reasons were for creating us and I accept that evil exists although I don't know how or why.

I know I want to serve God and not the enemy -- and this is really all that matters to me.

 

[jasonc]

God defined evil and allowed the choice to do evil,the tree having the knowledge was a test to allow choice .

God knows evil but by nature won't act on it .

 

[JLB]

Great post, as usual.

I agree that free will is not the problem...
Definitely not the problem of where evil originated.
If there's a choice between good and evil...it means evil exists...but what brought it into existence...Rhetorical question, no answer required.

The way you think is amazing....!

There is of course a positive side to this, in that when we are sanctified, and filled with His Life, we can impart good things into people’s lives.


Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers. Ephesians 4:29

• that it may impart grace to the hearers.

This is what happens as God speaks to us, we receive faith and grace from Him, because that is what is in Him; Life.


So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger, and fed you with manna which you did not know nor did your fathers know, that He might make you know that man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord. Deuteronomy 8:3

• man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord.

The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:63






JLB

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I think a possible answer is in the parable of the Wheet and the Tares. (Mathew 13:24-30)

In that parable, a man has a field with good seed growing, but an enemy comes and sows weeds in with it. When it's discovered and the servents tell the man, he says "an enemy's done it."

This could be about something besides the garden of Eden and the fall of mankind, but I think it parallels it too much to ignore. In the beginning God made the Heaven and the earth, and He saw that it was good. Then God made a man and a woman and placed them in the garden of Eden.


Looking at the parable and at Genesis it seems like they line up. God spoke the universe into being and it was good. Then Satan came (an enemy has done it) and stirred up a lie. "Surely God didn't say..." The snake wove into the lie both something to entice eating the fruit of knowledge, as well as saying something against what God said. "Surely you won't die." Dismissing God's warning and making the fruit to be like God even more enticing.

I think the first weed that caused us to stumble wasn't free will, but it was a lie.

In the same chapter of the parable of the Wheet and the Tares (the weeds) there's the parable of the sower, which is the parable of the sower. In that parable it is also explained what everything means. The good seed is the message of the Kingdom of Heaven. It's the word of God. The thorny weeds on the other hand are the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches, that choke out the good seed and makes it unfruitful.

This is what happened in the garden of Eden. God said not to eat the fruit of one tree. Which Eve seemed to have no problem with until there was a lie and there was a desire for the reward from the fruit, to be like God.

The first evil, the first weed, seems to be from a lie and turning away from God for the lie. Satan on that note is called the father of lies.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

As for the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Why was it there at all. There are many verses throughout the bible to turn from evil, and not even tolerate it in your presence. From fleeing from an adulterous woman because she will cause you ruin, to not be with an person with any other number of sins. "Do not be yoked unevenly with a sinner." All of this rings true for rejecting the presence of evil in our lives, even to flee from it and not be enticed by it.

I think that's what the tree of knowledge of good and evil could have been. It could have been Adam and Eve rejecting anything with evil in it. Even just the knowledge of evil to be tempted by it. Unfortunately that's not how it went, and the fruit of that tree is a lesson. Several lessons. To cling to God and every word He says. To not take a lie over the words of God. A lesson on obedience. And the drastic reality that our actions have huge consquences. (Probabley among many other lessons that can be learned from the mistake of eating the fruit.

 

[OzSpen]

I agree with all of the above.

When I was about 10 yrs old, and going to religious instruction (as it was called then), I became VERY angry with Adam and Eve for eating that fruit! I sometimes wonder how I stayed a believer in God after all that anger.

wondering,

We still call it Religious Instruction in the secular, state school system in Australia. All religions are given one lesson a week if there are enough children of that faith in the school. It's an opt-in choice by parents to choose if they want their children to attend the classes.

With the atheists, humanists and rationalists opposing it, I can't see it lasting much longer. We have the added problem that for Christianity we can't get enough instructors, who are volunteers and tend to be older age.

I understand the anger against A & E but when I realised they did it in my place (I would have done the same thing), I knew they were as human as I am.

I like the dynamic equivalence translation of 1 Cor 15:22 (NLT) as it conveys the meaning of the text and of what A & E did: 'Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life'.

Oz

 

[JohnDB]

Just my two cents...

If I were perfect and without sin...

And I got to speak and spend time with God face to face...

I would want to spend more time with God...go with him when He left for the day. To go where He goes, sleep in the same place if he slept...hang out even more.

If I could be more like God that would be great.

And I believe that this was the motivation behind the consumption of the fruit.

 

[OzSpen]

Very clear post Oz...I like your conversation and JLB s conversation much more than I care for mine!

The reason is, basically, because I no longer ask myself where evil originated. Adam and Evil cause me no problem....As you stated above, they had within them the ability to choose to obey or disobey. They chose to disobey. And why was this choice even available to them? THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

wondering,

You really are asking some deep questions. I am challenged in my relationship with God to think through God's revelation to us in Scripture. Thank you for your encouraging comments.

Of A & E you stated they 'chose to disobey. And why was this choice even available to them? THIS IS THE PROBLEM'.

It is only the BIG problem, as I see it, if one doesn't understand the repercussions for the whole of humanity if God did not give all people (including A & E) the ability to choose - free will. The implications of 'no choice' are enormous theologically, ecologically and practically. Imagine if you were forced to become a Christian or believe in God.

The choices A & E were given flow through to Saul choosing to kill Christians before he became Paul, the evangelist-teacher. Imagine if I went into my local Coles supermarket and didn't have the choice of which meat, milk, veggies, drinks, cereal and ice-cream I could buy. Choice is so necessary for life and A & E were the starters of bad choices on the earth.

I know a priest that is a theologian (Catholic) and also speaks Hebrew and Koine Greek and taught all of the above and he not only has no answer but wonders, at times, why God even made us knowing the hardship we would have to face.

My, oh my, that priest (theologian and exegete) is a dangerous doubter, influencing others towards the same view. I use that provocative language because God has revealed in Scripture answers to why God made us and the reasons for trials and suffering.

Why did God make human beings? A bigger question is: Why did God make anything at all? We could ask this in a Christian youth group and get a simple answer: 'To bring glory to God'. What does that mean? Does God need to be bragged on to make him God???

Rev 4:11 (NLT) tells us: '“You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power. For you created all things, and they exist because you created what you pleased.” Col 1:16 (NLT) makes a similar point: 'For through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see—such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him'.

The purpose for human beings and the whole of the created universe is to bring glory, honour and power to God.

Ex 3:14 (NLT) states clearly what is the foundation of glorifying God through our existence: 'God replied to Moses, “I am who I am. Say this to the people of Israel: I am has sent me to you”'.

First (verse 14), “God said to Moses, ‘I Am Who I Am.’” He did not say that was his name. He said, in effect: Before I tell you my name, I want you to be stunned by this fact: “I Am Who I Am.” And it seems to me that God would say this to us right now. You want to ask about what it means to glorify me, to do everything to my glory? Let me tell you something first. Let it sink in that I AM. Before you talk about me or do anything for me, be amazed that I exist. I absolutely am. This is first. This is foundational. This is of infinite importance.

So God created people with the ability to choose and the whole of creation to draw attention to God. The inference is that to understand/know God will have ominous consequences eternally.

This is because he's going way back before Adam and Eve to the beginning. In the beginning GOD CREATED...did He also create evil?

God could not have created evil because that action would be contradictory to his nature - his attribute of goodness that includes his love, benevolence, mercy and grace. This is best encapsulated in Ps 145:9, 15-17 (NLT): 'The eyes of all look to you in hope; you give them their food as they need it. When you open your hand, you satisfy the hunger and thirst of every living thing. The Lord is righteous in everything he does; he is filled with kindness'.

The Lord is 'the God of love' (2 Cor 13:11). His very nature is love (1 Jn 4:8, 16); Eph 2:4 confirms 'God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much' (NLT) and 'we give great honor to those who endure under suffering. For instance, you know about Job, a man of great endurance. You can see how the Lord was kind to him at the end, for the Lord is full of tenderness and mercy' (James 5:11 NLT).

None of these attributes of the goodness of God conform with God as the creator of evil. There is a source of evil, as I've shown in my posts, and it is with human beings - with one significant exception which we call evil but it's not. We'll discuss that later.

Oz


P.S. I note the snow flakes coming across the screen. For me they should be so thick from thunder storms. Had one on Christmas Eve that thundered so loudly it just about threw me out of my lounge chair with the lightning and thunder.

 

[JohnDB]

Why did God make human beings?

About 30 years ago I had an accident that dislocated my shoulder. And because I forgot my injury I kept dislocating it.
So I kept it down, low, forward and never raised my elbow above my ear.

But eventually 30 years later muscles atrophied, tendons shortened...and now the ball joint isn't centered....and dislocating all by itself no matter what.

But

I got some physical therapy. Now I lift my elbow above my ear all the time....as much as I can and for any reason I will do so after self restraining myself for so long. That freedom from restriction is wonderful.

Now God is good.... perfectly good.
And when it occurred to Him that forgiveness is a part of being good...he created mankind who had the possibility of choice of needing forgiveness.
Of course there wasn't and isn't license to commit sin. Those that earnestly seek forgiveness will find it.

If God hadn't created man there would be no good forgiveness coming from him...