No answers for problem of evil

[jasonc]

Jason,

I also attend a Calvinistic church but it won't be for much longer. The youth pastor leave this month with his young family to work in a university campus ministry. He said from the pulpit: 'We need to go out to find the elect'.

I am offended by that statement as it contradicts Scripture: 'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life' (John 3:16 ESV).

Our commission as believers is to go into 'the world', proclaim the Gospel and this message is for 'whoever believes'. It doesn't say we should go into the world and find those elected/predestined to believe.

Oz

While I'm not,one to say it that way but .

End times,and the tribulation for the elects sake shall be shortened.we didn't find God,he knew us and revealed himself to us.no,sinner wants God .

He choose to save man,if God himself is obliged to save any of his creations ,why not angels ? They have wills,too.yet there's no chance for Satan to repent .

 

[John Doe Smith]

So God is being which only ever does the "perfect thing". They don't have any other options, or they would never want to pick another option, because they're perfect. God can also effectively think in 4-dimensions, knowing every consequence for every action. God has knowledge of good and evil, yet the way he acts upon it is completely different from humans. This is starting to look very alien to how humans are. If I knew the consequences for every action I took with certainty, you can bet I would behave differently.

Does Judaism have an issue with this same topic? I'm not sure they do even though they really should if things are consistent. Is their definition of perfect different? Does the existence of Jesus and Satan somehow have implications on this question?

 

[JohnDB]

So God is being which only ever does the "perfect thing". They don't have any other options, or they would never want to pick another option, because they're perfect. God can also effectively think in 4-dimensions, knowing every consequence for every action. God has knowledge of good and evil, yet the way he acts upon it is completely different from humans. This is starting to look very alien to how humans are. If I knew the consequences for every action I took with certainty, you can bet I would behave differently.

Does Judaism have an issue with this same topic? I'm not sure they do even though they really should if things are consistent. Is their definition of perfect different? Does the existence of Jesus and Satan somehow have implications on this question?

Judaism denies Jesus being the Messiah...that's a bit of a big mistake.
Sadducees and Pharisees (and the other sects differed too) argued extensively as to Satan. Some seen Satan as commonly believed today as a semi-autonomous angelic being that was God's adversary. Others seen Satan as an Anthropomorphism of opposition to God.

As far as "time" goes the Jews believed...
God created Time and is in Time as well as outside of it. Any proper worship of God required centuries and millennium...not minutes or days. So Abraham's worship of God continues today with the Jewish people. They share in Abraham's rewards of being God's friend by being one of Abraham's children because they take part in the continuing worship of God by their lifestyle.

We, today, tend to think of worship as something we attend for a couple of hours on Sunday. To the Jews it was very different.

 

[John Doe Smith]

Judaism denies Jesus being the Messiah...that's a bit of a big mistake.
Sadducees and Pharisees (and the other sects differed too) argued extensively as to Satan. Some seen Satan as commonly believed today as a semi-autonomous angelic being that was God's adversary. Others seen Satan as an Anthropomorphism of opposition to God.

So did they not see things in terms of good and evil, but just God and opposition to God, which God also created? They'd never ask this question because "evil" isn't really a thing to them. Am I getting that right?

 

[jasonc]

Judaism denies Jesus being the Messiah...that's a bit of a big mistake.
Sadducees and Pharisees (and the other sects differed too) argued extensively as to Satan. Some seen Satan as commonly believed today as a semi-autonomous angelic being that was God's adversary. Others seen Satan as an Anthropomorphism of opposition to God.

As far as "time" goes the Jews believed...
God created Time and is in Time as well as outside of it. Any proper worship of God required centuries and millennium...not minutes or days. So Abraham's worship of God continues today with the Jewish people. They share in Abraham's rewards of being God's friend by being one of Abraham's children because they take part in the continuing worship of God by their lifestyle.

We, today, tend to think of worship as something we attend for a couple of hours on Sunday. To the Jews it was very different.

Actually that's modern ,we separate it now ,go back and its not quite ,remember like schul / temple churches were the meeting house ,school house and community center.I,love near one that old ,its over a hundred years old .it was a church quite recently .

 

[dianegcook]

My two cents...
With every positive there is a negative.
How could you know good if evil didn't exist?
How could you determine from hot to cold?
Satan was that tree of good and evil...
He use to be a cherub and turned evil.
All through the Bible people are referred to trees..
Trees that bear fruit..
Branches...
As Jesus is referred to the tree of Life....

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

So did they not see things in terms of good and evil, but just God and opposition to God, which God also created? They'd never ask this question because "evil" isn't really a thing to them. Am I getting that right?

From what I've read in the Old Testiment, evil is part of opposition and disobedience to God. I don't know modern Jewish philosophy or their other writtings, but I doubt they would see evil as something outside of a type of disobedience. The laws of God speak about being rightous, generous, merciful, just. The qualities of being wicked and evil would be in acts of disobedience and opposition to God. Do not murder, do not steal, do not comit bribery, honor your family and do not comit incest (phrased differently but basically the same sentiment), do not lie, do not comit adultry or to want your neighbor's wife or your neighbor's things.

I'm sure Jews have a full view of what counts as evil based on how much the bible talks about rejecting and turning away from wickedness. As well as God's punishment on them in history (recorded in the Old Testiment for turning into a nation of murderers and idolizes).

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

My two cents...
With every positive there is a negative.
How could you know good if evil didn't exist?
How could you determine from hot to cold?
Satan was that tree of good and evil...
He use to be a cherub and turned evil.
All through the Bible people are referred to trees..
Trees that bear fruit..
Branches...
As Jesus is referred to the tree of Life....

I've heard this perspective of good and evil balancing eachother out. That without evil we wouldn't know what is good. Or that without evil we wouldn't appreciate what is good. Even to the point that without evil good could not exist.

But I don't think it works like that. Evil encourages more of the same, it's not a signpost towards being good, even if it acts as a warning sometimes. But more often it's a temptation. Someone does something wrong, the temptation is to do it right back. Multiple people do the same wrong (like say in the business world or in politics) then the thought is that this is the way the world is, and act along the same way when the situation arises.

On the other hand by not coming close to evil, and by training yourself and your kids up right, then you'll continue to do right. Not because you know evil, but because you know discipline, kindness, and how to be good to strive for and perfect even more.

Everyone gets their hands dirty sometime in their life, and often struggle with it for a while to come. Whether it's anger and a short temper. Lust and the adultery that would come with it, or the kind of trickery and underhandedness that Jacob (Abraham's son) dealt with his entire life. Or it could be an addiction, something they do out of boredom, frustration, or fatigue that becomes a temptation to deal with those situations.

 

[Who Me]

There is an answer to the problem of evil, in fact there are a couple of Christian answers. It is the atheist who has no answer, primarily because he cannot define what 'good or evil ' is.
The answer is Jesus. He and he alone has dealt with what separates us from God, enables us to love God and in loving him truly love others.

Good and evil seen or viewed without Jesus is a hopeless task, as one has no foundation or boundaries or an answer.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well FHG,,,I'm a bit farther back than him....

Not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate on this?

 

[for_his_glory]

So where does sin come from?

I already explained this in post #27 and 44

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

If you have access to the Internet on your mobile or PC (as you must have to be writing to us here), I don't use a hard copy of the NLT. I go to Bible Gateway and it is one of the drop-down Bible translations available at: https://www.biblegateway.com/

This year I've been reading through a translation for the deaf whose first language is sign language. It's called the Easy-to-Read Version (ERV). For the deaf, the translators had to break down some of the words and translate in shorter sentences. I can quibble over a few of the words translated, but overall I'm being edified by the translation.

So far, I've dealt with the origin of evil in the choices of A & E as the heads of the human race and their free will choice to disobey God's command. Isn't that explanation good enough as the origin of evil?

God cannot be the cause or origin of evil because of his very nature of goodness that includes love, mercy and grace.

We'll get to another dimension of what appears to be evil in action in a few more posts.

Oz

Hi Oz,,,
I use Biblehub for quotes. When I first joined a forum, I'd actually look for the verse in a real bible and then type it out!! I knew there had to be an easier way so I just sat at my computer one day and figured it out.

I do, however, like to read a paper copy. What can I do? I feel so old-fashioned that way. I like books,,,I like book stores and I like to hold books in my hands. Not that I read much anymore.

As to Adam and Eve...NO! That answer is not sufficient as it does not explain the origin of evil but explains how evil got into humans.

And I also agree that God did not create evil...
As I said to for_his_glory ...what a conundrum!

 

[GodsGrace]

Its not unusual,perhaps listening to them the oldest Calvinist church group in America. Under another pastor out of coral ridge

Unconditional election ,you,didn't deserve to be saved . no of us do.
For the arninist .if the doctrinal starement of predestination is a church .not a person God doesn't fore know,see and plan alreasy what it will be like ?he has to wait on our decision to repent ?he doesn't have to give out the 12 gifts to the church as he fits.

Unconditional Elections means that there is no way for us to follow a condition set by God to be saved.

IOW, GOD chooses who will be saved and GOD chooses who will be damned.

Those in hell will not be there because they refused God but because God chose them from birth to end up in hell.

If this sounds like the God of the bible to you...then you are correct in going to a reformed church.

If this does NOT sound like the God of the bible to you,,,then you should change your church and go to one that properly represents the God of love, mercy and justice.

 

[OzSpen]

While I'm not,one to say it that way but .

End times,and the tribulation for the elects sake shall be shortened.we didn't find God,he knew us and revealed himself to us.no,sinner wants God .

He choose to save man,if God himself is obliged to save any of his creations ,why not angels ? They have wills,too.yet there's no chance for Satan to repent .

Jason,

I, as a convinced Reformed/Classical Arminian, believe in election and predestination. This is a good explanation of my view. Jacobus Arminius: On Predestination and Election.

With Arminius's understanding of Scripture, it is not coercive predestination and election that excludes people making choices to reject or accept salvation that is made available by God. God initiates the salvation.

A Reformed Arminian understanding confirms that there can be no salvation except through the blood spilt by Jesus on Golgotha. These Arminians are not semi-Pelagians as a lot of Calvinists want to place them in that camp.

A semi-Pelagian, according to Arminian theologian, Orton Wiley,

held that there was sufficient power remaining in the depraved will to initiate or set in motion the beginnings of salvation but not enough to bring it to completion. This must be done by divine grace (Wiley 1952:2.103).

That was not the view of Arminius. See my article: Sproul damns Arminianism by association with semi-Pelagianism

Oz

Bibliography:

Wiley, H O 1952. Christian theology, vol 2. Kansas City, Mo.: Beacon Hill Press of Kansas City.

 

[for_his_glory]

You seem to be getting the point here....

for_his_glory and others just don't seem to like going back far enough...it's dangerous territory back there.

How much further back can I go as I took it clear back with God creating the angels who like man have freewill.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering,

I can't follow your line of reasoning. We know that all that God created in the being, including human beings, was 'very good' (Gen 1:31).

THEN, God gave to Adam and Eve the choice to obey him or disobey him (the tree of the knowledge of good and evil). In choosing to disobey God, God did not create sin, but human beings did. They broke their relationship with the maker. We see that in Gen 3 when they wanted to hide from him.

So, evil did not 'come of God inventing good'. By the way, he didn't invent good but called his creation good, based on His own understanding of 'good' - His own nature, the goodness of God.

Where is no need to see evil coming out of the good God created in the beginning. Evil was a direct result of human choice = rejecting relationship with God.

Oz

Oz,
You're saying that humans created evil.
Humans cannot create anything...only God can create.
We use this word incorrectly these days.

Again,,,,if Original Sin entered into humans when Adam sinned,,,then what made HIM sin if original sin was not in him yet?

Have you not yet realized that there is no answer for this?

 

[for_his_glory]

If I knew the consequences for every action I took with certainty, you can bet I would behave differently.

We do know the consequences for every action we take in disobedience to God's commands.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[GodsGrace]

Not sure what you mean. Can you elaborate on this?

You asked me WHO was in the garden...or something about angels. Of course the answer is the enemy; satan. Who doesn't know this?

This has nothing to do with the origin of evil. How did satan become evil if God created only good?

 

[GodsGrace]

How much further back can I go as I took it clear back with God creating the angels who like man have freewill.

What was before angels?
Go back to the beginning...when there was still nothing.
There was only good?
God IS good and everything He created was good...Genesis 1.

So where did evil come from?
Why did some angels have pride?
Why did they want to be like God?
These seem to be evil traits to me.

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz,,,
I use Biblehub for quotes. When I first joined a forum, I'd actually look for the verse in a real bible and then type it out!! I knew there had to be an easier way so I just sat at my computer one day and figured it out.

I do, however, like to read a paper copy. What can I do? I feel so old-fashioned that way. I like books,,,I like book stores and I like to hold books in my hands. Not that I read much anymore.

As to Adam and Eve...NO! That answer is not sufficient as it does not explain the origin of evil but explains how evil got into humans.

And I also agree that God did not create evil...
As I said to for_his_glory ...what a conundrum!

wondering,

I also use BibleHub sometimes but I don't find the range of versions to be as comprehensive as with Bible Gateway. I find it more difficult to gain a copy and paste for a longer piece of Scripture with BibleHub

It seems to me that in seeking to find the reason for initial evil you are committing a Begging the Question Logical Fallacy.

This is a 'form of argument where the conclusion is assumed in one of the premises.... Begging the question is a form of circular reasoning'. It is logically erroneous because, in this discussion, it is arising where people, including wondering, have an ingrained assumption of the nature of evil. Because this is your presupposition, no evidence that I or others provide will be accepted.

Please don't take that as my being offensive to you, but that is what I see is happening in this discussion. You don't seem to be able to accept what the Scripture says about how evil entered the human race because of your first assumption that shows up in your conclusion.

I don't think I will ever be able to get to the point of your agreeing with the cause of evil because of your exclusion of that content. Please tell me if my assessment is wrong.

Oz