Obey God or never enter Heaven!

[Drew]

John 3:36

New King James Version (NKJV)

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.â€

This text does not challenge what Paul writes in Romans 2:6-7: that eternal life will be granted according to what we have done.

And reason is this:

1. If, by faith alone, you accept Jesus, you are given the Spirit;
2. The Spirit then transforms you into a 'good works' producer;
3. You then are basically assured of final salvation on the basis of that initial faith - the Spirit will most assuredly "do its job" and produce saving good works.

I double-dog dare anyone to challenge me to Biblically support any of these items.

So you see, the problem is that when one comes to a text like John 3:36 already believing that 'good works' salvation at the end is untrue, one, naturally enough, will have trouble with Romans 2:6-7, even though, like me, one accepts the truth of John 3:36 How one justify ignoring the Romans text, or reworking it, is something you have to explain to us.

The bottom line is this:

1. The view that I am setting forth allows us to believe both John 3;36 and Romans 2:6-7 without doing violence to either;

2. The view that 'good works' salvation (at the end) cannot be correct forces you to either (1) sweep Romans 2:6-7 under the rug; or (2) reword it to change its meaning.

 

[Drew]

Romans 2 is a challenge for many in the reformed tradition. It includes the first treatment of justification in the book and, to the surprise and consternation of many, Paul affirms justification by good works:

you are storing up wrath for yourself (J)in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6(K)who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7to those who by (L)perseverance in doing good seek for (M)glory and honor and (N)immortality, (O)eternal life; 8but to those who are (P)selfishly ambitious and (Q)do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9There will be (R)tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew (S)first and also of the Greek, 10but (T)glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew (U)first and also to the Greek. 11For (V)there is no partiality with God. 12For all who have sinned (W)without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is (X)not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

What are we to do with this passage? Ignore it? Some do. Claim it is a description of a hypothetical path to justification? Many do, improperly reading Romans 3 and its rejection of justification by “works†as proving that Paul effectively does not believe his own words in chapter 2 (how odd is that!?) when he claims that good works matter in respect to ultimate justification. Others will try to morph the many references to “doing good†into allusions to “having faith†– an odd and awkward exegetical move.

The better alternative is to take Paul at his word – we are indeed ultimately justified by the content of the works that our lives manifest. How can we square this with Paul’s many statement about being “justified by faith�

Paul himself gives us the answer in Romans 8:

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus………
……..
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Paul’s argument is this: the Christian who demonstrates faith alone will indeed be ultimately justified precisely because he will be given the Spirit, and the Spirit, not the man’s moral self-effort, will be engine that transforms the man into the kind of person who will most assuredly pass the Romans 2 “good works†judgement.

The point is that we can take Romans 2 seriously – without ignoring it or mangling it beyond recognition – and still integrate its teaching with a serious embracing of the doctrine of justification by faith.

 

[beardedad]

Hi Beardedad,

I agree that he was addressing Jewish believers, however, he was still giving their ultimate outcome based on their actions. He is not addrssing actions based in the Law because there was not promise of eternal life in the Law.

Additonally, I don't think the argument of works are a by product of faith can be made wither. James says faith without works is dead. Therefore, fiath must be accompanied by works before it is considered a "Living " faith.

Hello Drew

He was addressing everyone during that time. He was letting the Jews know that if it was not for Christ death that the Law was what that they would be judge by and by that nobody would get in heaven. If you look on in the other chapters you can see that he was making a point at the beginning like " Look don't you see if Jesus had not died on the cross this is what you could look foward to. Also James was talking about a person that was not saved but was trying to make everyone think he was by his bragging, but that there were no works or actions in his life that could prove this. Someone truley saved you will know by their actions, they don't have to tell you. An example of what Paul says is:
You want to go to a place in the jungle and head to the starting area and the guide there tell your group.
" This is what it is going to take to get there. I t will take two years of hard labor, we will have to cross rivers go over mountains, cut our way through jungle."
Everybody looks around and thinks " Is this what I really want to do?"
Then the guide tell you " No I was just kidding. There was a man a few years ago that, by himself, made a way for you to go. He took care of everything all you have to do is follow his path."
That is what Paul is showing. When Jesus died on the cross he made a way for us to go and that I would not be judged on something that I could not accomplish.

 

[smaller]

Paul’s argument is this: the Christian who demonstrates faith alone will indeed be ultimately justified precisely because he will be given the Spirit, and the Spirit, not the man’s moral self-effort, will be engine that transforms the man into the kind of person who will most assuredly pass the Romans 2 “good works†judgement.

The point is that we can take Romans 2 seriously – without ignoring it or mangling it beyond recognition – and still integrate its teaching with a serious embracing of the doctrine of justification by faith.

I don't agree with you too often Drew, but for the above I would certainly agree, as I think most here would.

I don't think it would be considered 'disruptive' to reformed positions either. That is in fact the Perseverance portion.

These matters are not as complex as we often try to make them.

Scriptures are in fact quite simple in their intentions.

All of us as believers do have and carry 'evil' within our own hearts. It does not take a genius of biblical scholarship to come to this conclusion.

God in Christ via His Spirit calls us to REIGN over our own internal evil. That is evidenced by GOOD WORKS as opposed to EVIL WORKS.

In the judgment EVIL WORKS will burn and we will ALL have same to burn and to lose and to suffer LOSS of those.

What is worthy to remain in the eternal will remain.

Why we so busily engage to damn each others over what we all have and carry is the only odd part to come to deal with. It is good for a believer to walk in DAMNATION over his OWN evil. That is a legitimate call to all of us.

Our Hope in Christ is that it doesn't get the best of us.

s

 

[smaller]

The Life stile understanding of what scripture means when referring to sin, is just a garbage theology.

A Christian is dead to sin. A spiritual Christian will not sin. A spiritual Christian has been begotten by God, and will not sin. If a person who has been begotten by God deliberately commits a sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Romans 6: 1-2) “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.â€

(Hebrews 10:26-27) “ If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies.

Any believer who comes to the conclusion that they do not sin or if they do they will burn alive forever is sorely misled.

We can NOT say we have no sin and be 'in Truth.' 1 John 1:8

We may very well be 'dead' to sin that it not take hold and reign over us. But it is not something we rid ourselves of in this present life.

We are called to not 'let' sin reign in our mortal bodies. It is stated that way because it is in fact there to reign.

s

 

[Thankful1]

Hmm...Pretty clear isn't and yet....

14 So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. 15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

18 And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[d] I want to do what is right, but I can’t. 19 I want to do what is good, but I don’t. I don’t want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20 But if I do what I don’t want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

21 I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love God’s law with all my heart. 23 But there is another power[e] within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God’s law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.

Who said this? The Apostle Paul What in the world could he possibly mean?
Was Paul perfectly righteous, Just like Jesus when he physically died?

So if both scriptures are true were is the truth in them? The Holy Spirit is our teacher, He will teach us all things if we are willing to submit our minds, and our spirits to His teaching. The scriptures are spiritual they are not like reading any other book with worldy eyes. "the things of the flesh are flesh and the things of the spirit are Spirit"

It is a shame that people will read Romans seven, and then stop. Do they stop because they don’t want to know why Paul wrote what he did?

People Paul wrote Romans seven to let everyone know just how impossible it is to not sin.

Then in Romans eight John lets everyone know just how God made it possisible through Jesus, giving man his Holy Spirit to defeat Satan/sin.

(Romans 8:1-4) “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.”

(Galatians 5:16)“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence....”.

 

[Knotical]

It is a shame that people will read Romans seven, and then stop. Do they stop because they don’t want to know why Paul wrote what he did?

People John wrote Romans seven to let everyone know just how impossible it is to not sin.

Then in Romans eight John lets everyone know just how God made it possisible through Jesus, giving man his Holy Spirit to defeat Satan/sin.

(Romans 8:1-4) “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.â€

(Galatians 5:16)“Let me put it like this if you are guided by the Spirit you will be in no danger of yielding to self-indulgence....â€.

Guess how I know everything you are proposing is suspect. Paul wrote the book of Romans, not John.

 

[Thankful1]

Does anyone who believe that "good works" are not required for "entering Heaven" have an explanation for this statement by Paul (from Romans 2)

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

As a statement rendered in the English language, it is a clear and unambiguous assertion that eternal life is granted according to what we have done.

Why would Paul make such a statement if he did not believe it to be true?

Many evade or ignore this question. Others, intentionally or otherwise, change this text into something else.

Any takers?

Living the whole Word of God is the only way one will enter the Kingdom of God. If one lives the Word of God he or she will be doing good works.

(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.â€

Do you all realize that God’s home is the kingdom of God?

By the way there seems to be a lot of talk about Calvin, and what he believed on this thread. Well Calvin just like Joseph Smith just came out of their heads, and neither were led by God.

People are so stupid to think that it took God hundreds of years to inform people of his true message. What Calvin or Smith taught was never accepted by anyone before the Reformation.

Besides Hebrews, and James both prove Calvin wrong.

(Hebrews 10:26-27) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies.

 

[Thankful1]

Any believer who comes to the conclusion that they do not sin or if they do they will burn alive forever is sorely misled.

We can NOT say we have no sin and be 'in Truth.' 1 John 1:8

We may very well be 'dead' to sin that it not take hold and reign over us. But it is not something we rid ourselves of in this present life.

We are called to not 'let' sin reign in our mortal bodies. It is stated that way because it is in fact there to reign.

s

What a lie you have been taught. You know one who sins is of the devil don’t you? So if who ever taught you what you posted, if he or she sinned they were of the devil. There is a good chance you have been taught about God by the devil


(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s workâ€


Read this, you need to see John was saying: “If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar.†Can’t you see John was telling people everyone has sinned, and one would be a liar if he said they had not? John was not telling people who no longer sinned that they were liars by admitting they no longer sinned.

By not believing that John is telling us we are to live without sinning is calling John a liar. John tells us one who sins has never known God.

(1 John 1: 8-10) “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.â€

You need to see John was saying if one says he or she says they have never sinned they are liars.

If one is forgiven of all unrighteousness are they not then sinless? Could they then be liars if they say they are sinless?

John later says:

(1 John 3:3-9) “Surely everyone who entertains this hope must purify himself, must try to be as pure as Christ. Any one who sins at all breaks the law, because to sin is to break the law. Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin: anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him. My children do not let anyone lead you astray’ to live a holy life is to be holy just as He is holy’ to lead a sinful life is to belong the Devil, since the Devil was a sinner from the beginning. It was to undo all that the Devil has done that the Son of God appeared. No one who has been begotten by God sins: because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.â€

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's workâ€

John told us those who did not know God sinned and asked forgiveness and were forgiven, but once a person comes to know God he or she will not sin.

Scripture goes on to say that if a person who does know God uses their free will to sin there is no repentance for that person.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.â€

(Hebrews 6: 4) “As for those people who were once brought into the light, and tasted the gift from heaven, and received a share of the Holy Spirit, and appreciated the good message of God and the powers of the world to come and yet in spite of this have fallen away it is impossible for that to be renewed a second time. They cannot be repentant if they have willfully crucified th Son of God and openly mocked Him.â€

 

[Thankful1]

Good morning,

The title of this thread would have gone over real well with the thief on the cross. Of course, his obedience didn't require any good deeds. Not much you can do while nailed to a cross.

- Davies

The thief on the cross with Jesus did one wonderful work. He showed his love for God, by recognizing God when so few were doing so, and had the courage to do so even though he was suffering so much.

 

[smaller]

What a lie you have been taught. You know one who sins is of the devil don’t you?

Of course! Do you think we avoid 'internal confrontation with our enemy?

Nope.

If you understand that temptation of the tempter is INternal, where then is the TEMPTER?

Pretty simple isn't it?

You are justified as a believer. The tempter, not.

But there is no need for any of us to lie about the internal confrontations or the fact that we all have sinned and have sin. To say otherwise is to excuse the tempter and his actions within us.

Jesus advised us that the mere thought of sin is in fact sin.

Do you or I have only Perfect thoughts? No. We DO in fact come into confrontations internal with the TEMPTER in our hearts.

Simple, no?

So if who ever taught you what you posted, if he or she sinned they were of the devil. There is a good chance you have been taught about God by the devil

Uh, no, I accept that what Jesus says here HAPPENS TO ME:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

I have found no use in denying this matter as a fact for myself, understanding temptations are 'within' and are of THE DEVIL.

Make of it what you can.

If the DEVIL leads any person into thinking that they are presently sinless and perfect, they have in fact already been deceived within.

s

 

[Thankful1]

Just what are you trying to say. Make it plan and simple.
If you are saying that the "new creature in Christ" that God created in our now living, no longer dead spirit, does not sin because that is where the Holy Spirit dwells, I can agree with you.
But in the flesh - soul - that part of us that has not begin completely renewed and still is not in total submission to the Lord it does sin. Read Romans 7- Paul said he sinned in the flesh, in the old nature that still was influenced by evil. Satan and the garbage that we have accumulated is still influencing us.

A person is one, body, soul, and spirit. The spirit never sinned. When one is indwelled with the Holy Spirit he or she will be taught to live the Word of God, and will become a temple of God, where no sin exists.

(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.â€

 

[Thankful1]

Of course! Do you think we avoid 'internal confrontation with our enemy?

Nope.

If you understand that temptation of the tempter is INternal, where then is the TEMPTER?

Pretty simple isn't it?

You are justified as a believer. The tempter, not.

But there is no need for any of us to lie about the internal confrontations or the fact that we all have sinned and have sin. To say otherwise is to excuse the tempter and his actions within us.

Jesus advised us that the mere thought of sin is in fact sin.

Do you or I have only Perfect thoughts? No. We DO in fact come into confrontations internal with the TEMPTER in our hearts.

Simple, no?



Uh, no, I accept that what Jesus says here HAPPENS TO ME:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

I have found no use in denying this matter as a fact for myself, understanding temptations are 'within' and are of THE DEVIL.

Make of it what you can.

If the DEVIL leads any person into thinking that they are presently sinless and perfect, they have in fact already been deceived within.

s

You don’t see how wrong it is for you to need to ignore so much scripture to believe what you do? By the way quote in context where Jesus said to think about sin is sin? Jesus said if one looks upon another with lust it is a sin, and no I would never do that.

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.â€

(1 John 5:18) “ We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm himâ€

 

[smaller]

You don’t see how wrong it is for you to need to ignore so much scripture to believe what you do? By the way quote in context where Jesus said to think about sin is sin? Jesus said if one looks upon another with lust it is a sin, and no I would never do that.

What you think and what the tempter does within will remain two different matters.

To claim however that we are neither sinners nor internally tempted by the tempter is not true.

We can both easily look at Paul's statements for himself post salvation and do an easy match up:

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Do you see a claim of Paul not being a sinner? No.

Now listen to your claim and you will find only one truthful speaker, and that is Paul.

s

 

[Thankful1]

What you think and what the tempter does within will remain two different matters.

To claim however that we are neither sinners nor internally tempted by the tempter is not true.

We can both easily look at Paul's statements for himself post salvation and do an easy match up:

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Do you see a claim of Paul not being a sinner? No.

Now listen to your claim and you will find only one truthful speaker, and that is Paul.

s

Only Calvinist and people trying to justify, and believe they are righteous even though they still sin, will read that Paul was saying he was still the chief of sinners. If that were so then Paul would never enter the kingdom of God. Paul said a sinner will never enter the kingdom of God.

People, who get really desperate to believe they are righteous even though they still sin, will bring up that Paul called Peter a sinner. They judge that Peter was deliberately disobeying God even after he received the Holy Spirit.

People will believe anything to make him or herself believe they can sin and still enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus told us that one had to live the Word of God to enter the kingdom of God, and sinning is not living the Word of God.

(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.â€

 

[Davies]

The thief on the cross with Jesus did one wonderful work. He showed his love for God, by recognizing God when so few were doing so, and had the courage to do so even though he was suffering so much.

Hi Thankful1,

This 'work' the thief did was God's work in him. The thief cannot take credit for his faith. It was a gift. There are too many examples in the Bible that elaborate or put in the fuller context Romans 2 of which is being drilled into my head. I've never seen a better example of eisegesis.

1 Corinthians 4:7

New King James Version (NKJV)

7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?


The thief on the cross was not boasting of himself. He was boasting in Jesus. This 'work' he did what not his work.
Philippians 2:13

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.


How many times does this verse have to be quoted and yet it is just as clear as Romans 2:


John 3:36

New King James Version (NKJV)

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.â€




Romans 8:3-4

New King James Version (NKJV)

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (emphasis added)



Do we seriously think we can be powered by the Holy Spirit to always do what is right? I think it's inconsistent to present anything I might have been able to do empowered by the Holy Spirit because I have so much more unrighteous things that I do because the sanctification process is life long, not the justification process. The works gospel would have a person believe that what they do justifies them, God accepts your righteous deeds to justify you, but He doesn't see your unrighteousness after coming to faith? My conscience tells me different. I think it's strange that anyone who believes their sins were imputed to Christ, would then not believe His righteousness is not imputed to them. Jesus wasn't your representative in His life?; but He was your representative in His death on the cross? This view opens up a wide expanse for one's self-pride to parade itself.



- Davies

 

[smaller]

Only Calvinist and people trying to justify, and believe they are righteous even though they still sin, will read that Paul was saying he was still the chief of sinners.

Paul said it. It doesn't take a theological slant to read that fact.

One is certainly welcome to deny they can read a simple statement in favor of their slant.

If that were so then Paul would never enter the kingdom of God. Paul said a sinner will never enter the kingdom of God.

Very true. Nor will liars who say they are not sinners.

1 John 1:10
If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Exactly ZERO believers became 'sinless' after belief/salvation. Zero.

People, who get really desperate to believe they are righteous even though they still sin, will bring up that Paul called Peter a sinner. They judge that Peter was deliberately disobeying God even after he received the Holy Spirit.

All have sinned. All have sin. There is no way around the math on this one.

People will believe anything to make him or herself believe they can sin and still enter the kingdom of God.

I would consider being 'truthful' about our sins is part of the entry price. Certainly there is no gain in either deceptions of our feigned sinless perfection or lying by saying we have no sin.

It will always amaze me though how Paul can say outright he was the chief of sinners and people like you can't even see it in black and white. That shows how powerful internal deception is. To the point where some can't even read, even though it's there in black and white to read.

So, why you would need a Savior when you are Perfect, Sinless and without ANY temptation would seem to be a question? Are you not God in your own mind already?

Why would you even fear God seeing you are so perfectly SINLESS already?

Jesus told us that one had to live the Word of God to enter the kingdom of God, and sinning is not living the Word of God.

I consider lying to be a sin as well. So if I say I have no sin I am in fact lying and the Truth is not in me.

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Do we allow ourselves to be made liars by sin? Probably not a good idea.

But in your mind those words are probably not even there are they?

They go into your mind and heart and immediately you reject those words because you are sinless perfection.

It's quite odd, religion in this way.

(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.â€

I am quite fond of not having to lie to God in Christ about having sin and being a sinner. His Word did a most excellent job of 'sourcing' this matter for me. Even dividing me from my enemies.

Until a believer sees their real enemy is internal however, that sharp sword of the Word will remain a little DULL in their hands. I expect it will be cleared up for them at some point in the process of time.

s

 

[Thankful1]

Hi Thankful1,

This 'work' the thief did was God's work in him. The thief cannot take credit for his faith. It was a gift. There are too many examples in the Bible that elaborate or put in the fuller context Romans 2 of which is being drilled into my head. I've never seen a better example of eisegesis.

1 Corinthians 4:7

New King James Version (NKJV)

7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?


The thief on the cross was not boasting of himself. He was boasting in Jesus. This 'work' he did what not his work.
Philippians 2:13

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.


How many times does this verse have to be quoted and yet it is just as clear as Romans 2:


John 3:36

New King James Version (NKJV)

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.â€




Romans 8:3-4

New King James Version (NKJV)

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (emphasis added)



Do we seriously think we can be powered by the Holy Spirit to always do what is right? I think it's inconsistent to present anything I might have been able to do empowered by the Holy Spirit because I have so much more unrighteous things that I do because the sanctification process is life long, not the justification process. The works gospel would have a person believe that what they do justifies them, God accepts your righteous deeds to justify you, but He doesn't see your unrighteousness after coming to faith? My conscience tells me different. I think it's strange that anyone who believes their sins were imputed to Christ, would then not believe His righteousness is not imputed to them. Jesus wasn't your representative in His life?; but He was your representative in His death on the cross? This view opens up a wide expanse for one's self-pride to parade itself.



- Davies

You can try to understand scripture the ways man has been teaching, but you will continue in your sins. If one lets God teach him or her they will find a much different understanding.

If God is teaching and leading one he or she will not sin. God does not lead one to sin.

I have heard the watered down understandings of the teachings of God that man has been telling people is true, and it only makes me sad.

My witness is that Jesus personally has taught me, and the proof of that is the fruit, which his teaching has produced. I do not sin, and Jesus has taught me and has given me the grace to live his whole Word.

If one sins he or she are of the devil. That is the Word of God. People seem to believe with their rationalizations that they can sin and be of God also, but scripture says that is not true.

My witness is that to be a Christian one has to live a sinless life.

People believe being saved is going to heaven. No! That is not true, because a sinner will never enter the kingdom of God.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.â€

 

[Davies]

My witness is that to be a Christian one has to live a sinless life.
”

Hi Thankfu1,

Here is an example of Peter, who after receiving the Holy Spirit, sinned.

Galatians 2:11-13

New King James Version (NKJV)

No Return to the Law

11 Now when Peter[a] had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

Peter played the role of the hypocrite, and I dare say, that if you hold fast that you now are perfect in thought, word, and deed, you play the hypocrite.

Jesus spared His most scathing rebukes to those who thought they were justified by keeping the law.

Matthew 23:13...

New King James Version (NKJV)

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.


15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.


25 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence.[f]


26 Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.

28 Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.


Hypocrisy is a terrible sin. Not that I haven't played the hypocrite. I'd be ashamed to talk about all my sins, but it is the finished work of Jesus, namely His life work, death, and resurrection whereby my sin is forgiven and my soul justified. Justice is satisfied in the death of Jesus and mercy can be handed down to the sinner, the sinner made righteous by one Man's obedience. :angel3

Romans 5:19

New King James Version (NKJV)

19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.


- Davies

 

[Danus]

You can try to understand scripture the ways man has been teaching, but you will continue in your sins. If one lets God teach him or her they will find a much different understanding.

If God is teaching and leading one he or she will not sin. God does not lead one to sin.

I have heard the watered down understandings of the teachings of God that man has been telling people is true, and it only makes me sad.

My witness is that Jesus personally has taught me, and the proof of that is the fruit, which his teaching has produced. I do not sin, and Jesus has taught me and has given me the grace to live his whole Word.

If one sins he or she are of the devil. That is the Word of God. People seem to believe with their rationalizations that they can sin and be of God also, but scripture says that is not true.

My witness is that to be a Christian one has to live a sinless life.

People believe being saved is going to heaven. No! That is not true, because a sinner will never enter the kingdom of God.

Just so it's clear, your saying one has to be perfectly Sinless to be saved and enter into the kingdom of heaven. Correct? Also, a true Christian is sinless. Correct?