Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Drew]

IOr why did Paul say.. O wretched man that I am rather than wretched man that I was..?

Context shows that this statement is about the state of a human person before re-birth.

Note the broader context, including the first bit of Romans 8:

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death

This text is complex, but for the purposes of the issue at hand, we only need to realize this: It is clear that Paul sees himself as having been delivered from the wretched state - look at verse 2 of chapter 8: he has been set free from the very law that put him in the "wretched" state.

So the Romans 7 text you quote decidedly does not describe the state of the Christian, it describes the state of a non-believer.

 

[Eventide]

Context shows that this statement is about the state of a human person before re-birth.

Note the broader context, including the first bit of Romans 8:

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death

This text is complex, but for the purposes of the issue at hand, we only need to realize this: It is clear that Paul sees himself as having been delivered from the wretched state - look at verse 2 of chapter 8: he has been set free from the very law that put him in the "wretched" state.

So the Romans 7 text you quote decidedly does not describe the state of the Christian, it describes the state of a non-believer.

Well then, I suppose that you now do not sin and that you won't eventually die.. we know that the wages of sin is death.. so how come your body is dying just like the rest of us.. ?

 

[Drew]

So evidently DREW is good enough..

All Christians are a new creation because they have Christ in them... that's about as NEW as it can get..and that doesn't negate the simple truths of the NT, one being that there are none good but ONE, and that is God.

Evidently that isn't true for you because we have your commentary here telling us that you're good enough.

Please do not misrepresent me. Whether you are doing so intentionally or not, this a serious misrespresentation of what I have repeatedly made clear.

If you have been reading - I mean actually reading - my posts, you would know that I believe that "credit" for any transformation of the believer is attributable to the Holy Spirit. You are giving the reader the false impression that I think I am good enough "in my own strength".

Second, this text you refer to about "no one good but God", please tell me where you got it from. If you got it from Romans 3, that text is demonstrably about the state of a person prior to re-birth. There are many texts that speak of the transformation of the believer - we are not stuck in the state of hopeless slavery to sin.

Let me ask the question that PG has not answered:

What does Paul actually say:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

PizzaGuy: What is it, precisely that Paul says God will give?

PizzaGuy: And on what basis, precisely does Paul say this "something" will be given?

I look forward to your answers.

 

[Drew]

Well then, I suppose that you now do not sin and that you won't eventually die.. we know that the wages of sin is death.. so how come your body is dying just like the rest of us.. ?

I see nothing in my post would lead a person to conclude that I hold such a view. Please clarify.

 

[Eventide]

I see nothing in my post would lead a person to conclude that I hold such a view. Please clarify.

You didn't see the part where you went on about how this is the pre-rebirth state of a Christian..?

Now that you're reborn, how come YOU still sin and how come YOU are going to die like the rest of us if this is only applicable to a person before they're reborn ?

 

[Drew]

You didn't see the part where you went on about how this is the pre-rebirth state of a Christian..?

Now that you're reborn, how come YOU still sin and how come YOU are going to die like the rest of us if this is only applicable to a person before they're reborn ?

I never suggested or implied that the re-born Christian will not sin. All I said, following what Paul says, is that the re-born Christian is no longer enslaved to sin. A person who has been released to enslavement to alchohol could conceivably have a drink now and then without being "enslaved". Paul is saying that once you are born again, you are no longer enslaved to sin. But this does not mean you will never sin again.

I will have to get back to you on the "death" issue. I know what I want to say, but no time.

A reminder for you: Please answer the two questions at the bottom of post 103

 

[Eventide]

I never suggested or implied that the re-born Christian will not sin. All I said, following what Paul says, is that the re-born Christian is no longer enslaved to sin. A person who has been released to enslavement to alchohol could conceivably have a drink now and then without being "enslaved". Paul is saying that once you are born again, you are no longer enslaved to sin. But this does not mean you will never sin again.

I will have to get back to you on the "death" issue. I know what I want to say, but no time.

A reminder for you: Please answer the two questions at the bottom of post 103

I know that you didn't, but your entire point was to wipe these NT truths away because they're only applicable to a person before rebirth, and that's why I'm saying that you must not sin and that you won't eventually die like the rest of us.. because you're reborn and so obviously this isn't applicable to you, right?

So who SHALL save us from this body of death... ? We know the answer because Paul tells us that the whole creation groans and waits for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our bodies..

The text is living and powerful and I suggest that you study this out moreso than you have.. I certainly know what a wretched man that I am, and I know that there is nothing good in me, in my flesh.. that's why we're to put it off because it is corrupted according to deceitful lusts..

So you're not answering my question at all.. why do YOU still sin and why are you going to DIE eventually ?

 

[Drew]

I know that you didn't, but your entire point was to wipe these NT truths away because they're only applicable to a person before rebirth, and that's why I'm saying that you must not sin and that you won't eventually die like the rest of us.. because you're reborn and so obviously this isn't applicable to you, right?

No. You are creating a strawman. I never posted anything to the effect that re-born man will not sin. All I said, simply following Paul, is that re-born man is no longer enslaved to sin. I would have thought it would be clear that a person who is no longer enslaved to sin can still sin.

You are also engaging in some non-constructive rhetoric here - suggesting that I am motivated to "wipe away Biblical truths". Please argue the texts and refrain from speculations about my motives.

ISo who SHALL save us from this body of death... ? We know the answer because Paul tells us that the whole creation groans and waits for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our bodies..

You have created a theology where we only escape slavery from sin "after death". But this is clearly not what Paul believes. Clearly, Paul believes that any man who is in Christ is a new creation. Already. We do not need to wait to become new creations, we are new creations already.

Paul's basic position is this: Before we are "born again" we are basically enslaved to the power of sin and are destined for death. But once we are re-born, we escape that slavery. Here is but one of many texts that clearly show that this side of the grave, we have escaped from slavery to sin:

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.

Paul clearly believes that a real transition takes place as we pass from being apart from Christ to being "in Christ". There is no evidence at all that this only happens after we die.

The text is living and powerful and I suggest that you study this out moreso than you have..

I usually do not say things like this, but I can pretty much guarantee that I have several times the amount of time studying Romans than you have. This is not because I know how much you have studied, it is because I know how much time I have spent studying this book. And it has been several hundred hours.

I certainly know what a wretched man that I am, and I know that there is nothing good in me, in my flesh.. that's why we're to put it off because it is corrupted according to deceitful lusts..

Well, you are simply not following the logic of Romans 7 and 8. If you were, you would realize that a Christian is delivered from the woeful state of the person described in Romans 7 and becomes the kind of person who is desribed in Romans 8. Here is an argument to make precisely this point:

1. The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

2. The Christian in Romans 8 is described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

3. If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:

a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)

b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)

These statements are inconsistent. Therefore, assuming we agree that the statement from Romans 8 is about the Christian, the Romans 7 cannot be descriptive of the experience of the Christian - one cannot be both subject to the effects of a law and yet also released from its effect.

So you're not answering my question at all.. why do YOU still sin and why are you going to DIE eventually ?

I have answered the sin question - twice now - so please stop asking me. As for death, Paul is not suggesting that the believer will never die, but rather that they will escape the finality of death. Yes, Paul does say that the believer has been delivered from "death", but he clearly does not intend us to understand that a believer will not die physically. We know this because Paul says this:

through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death


Note the past tense - the "me" here is already free from sin and death. So since Paul obviously knows that believers still die, he cannot be speaking of an escape from physical death.

Why are you not answering the questions I posted in post 103?

 

[Eventide]

I have answered the sin question - twice now - so please stop asking me. As for death, Paul is not suggesting that the believer will never die, but rather that they will escape the finality of death. Yes, Paul does say that the believer has been delivered from "death", but he clearly does not intend us to understand that a believer will not die physically. We know this because Paul says this:

through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death


Note the past tense - the "me" here is already free from sin and death. So since Paul obviously knows that believers still die, he cannot be speaking of an escape from physical death.

Why are you not answering the questions I posted in post 103?

You haven't answered anything.. I asked you WHY you still sin and WHY you are going to die like the rest of us if Romans 7 isn't applicable to you...

All you have stated is that a person still sins after being born again.. yes, I got that.. so answer the question please and perhaps I'll answer yours.. WHY do you sin and WHY are you going to die if Romans 7 doesn't apply to you..?

Who shall deliver you from this body of death ? Are you already raised from the dead.. ?

 

[Drew]

I asked you WHY you still sin and WHY you are going to die like the rest of us if Romans 7 isn't applicable to you...

I still sin because, while the power of sin over me has been largely broken, I still bear the Adamic sin nature. I am no longer enslaved to sin, but I can still sin.

Romans 7 is simply not about the Christian. This is easy to show:

Romans 7 does not deal with the experiences of the believer. It is Paul's reflection on the plight of the Jew under Torah, analyzed from his perspective as a Christian.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death

Of course not. Paul is looking back here to the time when the advent of the Law - the Torah - brought judgement and death. This is true of the Jew under Torah, not the Christian. Note the specific allusion to the delivery of the Torah at Sinai – “when the commandment cameâ€. Clearly, Paul is describing the history of Israel, using himself (a Jew) as a representative.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful

Sin produces death in the Christian? Sin becomes utterly sinful in the Christian? Of course not.

Please do not misunderstand Romans 7. It is not a transcript of Christian experience, for the alleged "elect" or otherwise. It is what Paul knows to be the case about the plight of the Jew under Torah, as seen from Paul's present state - that of a redeemed saint.

I have already answered your question as to why Christians still die - please do not suggest that I have not. Why are you not dealing with answer, and the Biblical text I used to support it.

WHY ARE YOU NOT ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS FROM POST 103???

 

[Eventide]

I still sin because, while the power of sin over me has been largely broken, I still bear the Adamic sin nature. I am no longer enslaved to sin, but I can still sin.

Romans 7 is simply not about the Christian. This is easy to show:

Romans 7 does not deal with the experiences of the believer. It is Paul's reflection on the plight of the Jew under Torah, analyzed from his perspective as a Christian.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death

Of course not. Paul is looking back here to the time when the advent of the Law - the Torah - brought judgement and death. This is true of the Jew under Torah, not the Christian. Note the specific allusion to the delivery of the Torah at Sinai – “when the commandment cameâ€. Clearly, Paul is describing the history of Israel, using himself (a Jew) as a representative.

Would the Christian say this about his experience as a Christian:

But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful

Sin produces death in the Christian? Sin becomes utterly sinful in the Christian? Of course not.

So the Law doesn't show you how utterly sinful you are..? Perhaps that's why you believe that you are good ?

Please do not misunderstand Romans 7. It is not a transcript of Christian experience, for the alleged "elect" or otherwise. It is what Paul knows to be the case about the plight of the Jew under Torah, as seen from Paul's present state - that of a redeemed saint.

Well, thanks for sharing your opinion on the matter.. I completely disagree and happen to agree with Paul who says that there is nothing good in him, in his flesh... and that aligns perfectly with what he says that we need to do after we're saved.. to put off the old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts.. and to put on the Lord Jesus Christ.. maybe you disagree with Paul, I don't..

Who do you think that the old man is ?

I have already answered your question as to why Christians still die - please do not suggest that I have not. Why are you not dealing with answer, and the Biblical text I used to support it.

Please direct me to where you answered why you still die, even as a Christian..?

WHY ARE YOU NOT ANSWERING THE QUESTIONS FROM POST 103???

I'll go back and look at 103 and answer your question.. the server is a little slow going at the moment.

 

[Eventide]

I look forward to your answers.

You're asking about Romans 2 again..? I already told you what I thought about romans 2.. that we're not working for salvation but rather our service to Him is with respect to rewards..

God isn't mocked.. He knows that what a person sows is what he will reap.. and you happen to believe that you're good and that by doing good you're going to be SAVED ?

I thought that there were none good but God... don't you remember that this is what the Lord said to the rich young ruler.. Why do you call Me good, there are none good but one, and that is God..?

Are you also a member of the special one true church club ? Just wondering and it would help if I know where you're coming from.. like if you filter everything through the RCC etc..

 

[francisdesales]

I think that you're the one missing the entire point of the NT.. and that is that if any man shall come after Me, let him DENY HIMSELF, take up his cross, and follow Me.. for IF YE SHALL SEEK TO SAVE YOUR life ye shall lose it, and if ye shall lose it for Me and the gospel, ye shall save it.

I think my point of view better expresses the necessity of that. I whole-heartedly agree that we ARE to die to self. That is the meaning of love. To die to selfish desires and give our all to the Other, God.

Your point speaks of Christ covering us, so what is the point of denying oneself? Why bother seeking God, when Jesus' work covers everything we do? Thus, my question to you remains unanswered. You realize that this is the fatal part of your "theology". There is NO POINT in sanctification IF Jesus "does it all"...

What does this mean to you...? How did the special one true church teach you concerning these NT truths..?

Is this the best you can do in your effort to belittle me?

How about AFTER you're saved.. what does it mean to PUT OFF the OLD MAN who IS corrupt according to deceitful lusts and to put on the Lord Jesus Christ.. or.. I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, YET NOT I, but Christ liveth in me.. or.. YE ARE DEAD and your life is hid in Christ with God..?

And again, what is the purpose of being sanctified. ME. Why become sanctified, obey God, obey the commandments, love others, forgive my enemies, etc, IF Jesus covers me, and God only sees the work of Jesus????

You got some serious issues that need to be addressed, since Paul doesn't seem to have your opinion on the matter of sanctification...

Or why did Paul say.. O wretched man that I am rather than wretched man that I was..?

No problem with this, since Paul realizes HE HAS CHANGED. Paul changed! He is now a new man, with a new nature, with a new Spirit within him.

Can you answer these truthfully or will you just ignore them and pretend that they're not even there in the holy scriptures, which are the living and powerful word of God which is for ever settled in Heaven..

I have ignored nothing you have said. I just find it sad that a "Christian" is so confused about what it means to be "in Christ"...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Agree. Those who think that we cannot "be good enough" to pass the Romans 2 "works" judgement seem to entirely overlook numerous texts which promise transformation, renewal, and, yes, new creation.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

Some will appeal to texts about how we are worthless sinners in order to try to undermine final salvation by works (suggesting it is not even possible). However, such people are clearly appealing to texts that describe the state of the human person prior to re-birth.

Yes, bumper-sticker slogans and cliches, the theological depth of a thimble of water... Same old thing, different month...

Regards

 

[Drew]

So the Law doesn't show you how utterly sinful you are..? Perhaps that's why you believe that you are good ?

In several posts, I have stated that I give all the credit to the Holy Spirit for any good works that are produced in me or in another believer.

So either you are not reading my posts, or I am not expressing myself clearly, or you have some comprehension problem, or you are lying.

Which one is it? What is the reason why you represent me as holding a view that I most certainly do not.

 

[Drew]

Well, thanks for sharing your opinion on the matter.. I completely disagree.....

Well then, let's do the exegesis. I assume that we both agree that we need to take Paul seriously in all the details. You still have some questions to answer re Romans 2:6-7, but I understand that you may need more time.

Well, let's look at the details:

Verse 1:

1Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?

What is the "law". I challenge anyone to suggest that it is not the Law of Moses. We shall see more evidence shortly.

For while we were (F)in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were (G)aroused by the Law, were at work (H)in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6But now we have been (I)released from the Law, having (J)died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in (K)newness of (L)the [a]Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Paul is talking about the Law of Moses. Christians often do not realize this, or take it upon themselves to decide that, even though the entire epistle uses the term "law" to denote the Law of Moses, that Paul is referring to something other than the Law of Moses.

Anyway, the following seals the deal - it is the Law of Moses that Paul is talking about:

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? (N)May it never be! On the contrary, (O)I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "(P)YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

Now surely you cannot deny the obvious - this is a reference to commandment number 8 of, yes, the Law of Moses.

Now notice what Paul says next:

Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died

Note how this sentence, if we really take it seriously makes it impossible that the "I" here is Paul the individual.

When did the Law of Moses "come", that is, when was it delivered to mankind? At Mount Sinai centuries before Paul was even born. And yet, the "I" - which you claim is Paul - dies, when the Law of Moses is given.

This cannot be - Paul was not even alive when the Law of Moses was given.

Instead, Paul is using the "I" as a literary device to refer to his fellow Jew.

In subsequent posts, I will argue that this literary use of the "I" is consistent with what Paul does elsewhere in the letter.

 

[Drew]

You're asking about Romans 2 again..? I already told you what I thought about romans 2.. that we're not working for salvation but rather our service to Him is with respect to rewards..

That simply does not match what Paul actually says. Why do you feel entitled to take a clear statement that eternal life, yes eternal life, is given to those who "persist in doing good" and change it into a statement about "rewards" (other than eternal life).

I politely suggest that you are going to have to deal with what the text actually says when you get around to answering the questions from post 103.

God isn't mocked.. He knows that what a person sows is what he will reap.. and you happen to believe that you're good and that by doing good you're going to be SAVED ?

Again, you are simply not representing what I have actually said. I am in good company, though. You have treated Paul the same way. I have repeatedly stated that I do not believe "I" am good - that it is the Holy Spirit who is the engine behind the good works produced in the life of the Christian

And yet you simply ignore what I actually wrote. The only conclusion I can draw is that it serves your purposes to represent me as believing in "my own righteousness". Hopefully, other readers will not be tripped up by this misrepresentation.

Are you also a member of the special one true church club ? Just wondering and it would help if I know where you're coming from.. like if you filter everything through the RCC etc..

I am not RCC. However, I do share something with francesdesales, who is Catholic - I take Romans 2:6-7 seriously.

 

[Drew]

Please direct me to where you answered why you still die, even as a Christian..?

This material from a post earlier today (Friday):

As for death, Paul is not suggesting that the believer will never die, but rather that they will escape the finality of death. Yes, Paul does say that the believer has been delivered from "death", but he clearly does not intend us to understand that a believer will not die physically. We know this because Paul says this:

through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

Note the past tense - the "me" here is already free from sin and death. So since Paul obviously knows that believers still die, he cannot be speaking of an escape from physical death.

 

[Elijah674]

That simply does not match what Paul actually says. Why do you feel entitled to take a clear statement that eternal life, yes eternal life, is given to those who "persist in doing good" and change it into a statement about "rewards" (other than eternal life).

I politely suggest that you are going to have to deal with what the text actually says when you get around to answering the questions from post 103.


Again, you are simply not representing what I have actually said. I am in good company, though. You have treated Paul the same way. I have repeatedly stated that I do not believe "I" am good - that it is the Holy Spirit who is the engine behind the good works produced in the life of the Christian

And yet you simply ignore what I actually wrote. The only conclusion I can draw is that it serves your purposes to represent me as believing in "my own righteousness". Hopefully, other readers will not be tripped up by this misrepresentation.


I am not RCC. However, I do share something with francesdesales, who is Catholic - I take Romans 2:6-7 seriously.

Naw Drew, we don't all think that you are catholic, or that you are trying to work your way to heaven because of YOUR LOVE FOR THE ONE WHO DAILY SAVES You!;)
And surely Fran does post the Working out of ones Love for Christ in Obedience very clearly!

--Elijah

 

[Drew]

Naw Drew, we don't all think that you are catholic, or that you are trying to work your way to heaven because of YOUR LOVE FOR THE ONE WHO DAILY SAVES You!;)
And surely Fran does post the Working out of ones Love for Christ in Obedience very clearly!

--Elijah

I appreciate your comments.