Once Saved, Always Saved?

[jasoncran]

pm does wonders.

 

[Drew]

pm does wonders.

Good point - I have edited my last post as there was really nothing constructive or edifying in the part I deleted.

 

[Eventide]

In several posts, I have stated that I give all the credit to the Holy Spirit for any good works that are produced in me or in another believer.

So either you are not reading my posts, or I am not expressing myself clearly, or you have some comprehension problem, or you are lying.

Which one is it? What is the reason why you represent me as holding a view that I most certainly do not.

You're the one arguing that YOU are working for YOUR SALVATION right.. is that true or not ? Are you a member of the special one true church.. that would explain a lot to me about why you're arguing that you're working for it.

 

[Eventide]

I think my point of view better expresses the necessity of that. I whole-heartedly agree that we ARE to die to self. That is the meaning of love. To die to selfish desires and give our all to the Other, God.

Like being a living sacrifice unto God..

Your point speaks of Christ covering us, so what is the point of denying oneself? Why bother seeking God, when Jesus' work covers everything we do? Thus, my question to you remains unanswered. You realize that this is the fatal part of your "theology". There is NO POINT in sanctification IF Jesus "does it all"...

Show me where I ever said that Jesus does it all with respect to sanctification.. We are sanctified by the Holy Spirit although that also entails a willingness on the part of the person to agree with God.. and yes, I agree with God where He says that Apart from Me ye can do nothing, and that there are NONE good but one... or that there are none righteous, no not even one.. I agree that if I shall seek to save my life I shall lose it.. and that if any man shall come after Me that he must DENY HIMSELF, take up His cross and follow Me..

I agree with God that I am crucified with Christ and nevertheless I live.. YET NOT I, but Christ liveth in me.. I agree with God that I AM DEAD and that my life is hid in Christ with God... these are all in the bible you know... ohh, that's right... you could care less about the bible.

Can two walk together except they be agreed.. ? Do you agree with God that there are none good but one.. I doubt it.. how else would you be led to believe that you're working to be saved.

Is this the best you can do in your effort to belittle me?

Belittle.. this is the truth... you're a proud member of the special one true church..

 

[Elijah674]

No. You are creating a strawman. I never posted anything to the effect that re-born man will not sin. All I said, simply following Paul, is that re-born man is no longer enslaved to sin. I would have thought it would be clear that a person who is no longer enslaved to sin can still sin.

You are also engaging in some non-constructive rhetoric here - suggesting that I am motivated to "wipe away Biblical truths". Please argue the texts and refrain from speculations about my motives.


You have created a theology where we only escape slavery from sin "after death". But this is clearly not what Paul believes. Clearly, Paul believes that any man who is in Christ is a new creation. Already. We do not need to wait to become new creations, we are new creations already.

Paul's basic position is this: Before we are "born again" we are basically enslaved to the power of sin and are destined for death. But once we are re-born, we escape that slavery. Here is but one of many texts that clearly show that this side of the grave, we have escaped from slavery to sin:

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.

Paul clearly believes that a real transition takes place as we pass from being apart from Christ to being "in Christ". There is no evidence at all that this only happens after we die.


I usually do not say things like this, but I can pretty much guarantee that I have several times the amount of time studying Romans than you have. This is not because I know how much you have studied, it is because I know how much time I have spent studying this book. And it has been several hundred hours.


Well, you are simply not following the logic of Romans 7 and 8. If you were, you would realize that a Christian is delivered from the woeful state of the person described in Romans 7 and becomes the kind of person who is desribed in Romans 8. Here is an argument to make precisely this point:

1. The person described in Romans 7 is experiencing a "law" of sin that leads to death:

but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

2. The Christian in Romans 8 is described as having been set free from from this law of sin and death.

2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death

3. If the position that the person in Romans 7 is a Christian is correct, - then we have the following statements:

a. The Christian is subject to the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 7)

b. The Christian is set free from the law of sin that produces death (clear statement from Romans 8)

These statements are inconsistent. Therefore, assuming we agree that the statement from Romans 8 is about the Christian, the Romans 7 cannot be descriptive of the experience of the Christian - one cannot be both subject to the effects of a law and yet also released from its effect.


I have answered the sin question - twice now - so please stop asking me. As for death, Paul is not suggesting that the believer will never die, but rather that they will escape the finality of death. Yes, Paul does say that the believer has been delivered from "death", but he clearly does not intend us to understand that a believer will not die physically. We know this because Paul says this:

through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death


Note the past tense - the "me" here is already free from sin and death. So since Paul obviously knows that believers still die, he cannot be speaking of an escape from physical death.

Why are you not answering the questions I posted in post 103?

NO, your postings have not answered the question correctly for us.
Let me put it another way then?? The Born Again MIND is still with a Carnal body is what you are saying. And that is agreed! So when sin accrue's, which is controling which? (Mind over Body or Body over Mind) And when any die's being 'overweight' in sin (any sin) such as the whole Rev. 3:16 'Lukewarm; bunch, they ARE SPEWED OUT Inspiration Documents as sickening to Christ.

And these ARE ones on past being Born Again Virgin as seen in Rev. 2:5's Candlesticks! And take note that Inspiration find's NO Conemnation other than their Love had [BECAME] sick! Even to the point that the COLD sinner was still reachable while these ones were not! (Gen. 6:3's repeat) And these ones were still found as in Matt. 23:15's last history of Promiseing them OSAS Liberty, huh? 2 Peter 2:19-22.

Bottom/line finds sin still there until one has MATURELY put it away by the Power of Christ! Phil. 4:13. And if not overcome?? We will all die with the carnal body controling the ex/spiritual mind! Heb. 6:6's END. James 1:15

So, once again, we can as did Adam, be Perfect In Christ Rom. 8:1 with NO CONDEMNATION & then just stubbornly not be Rom. 8:14 Led of the Holy Ghost, and then CHOOSE TO BE OUT OF CHRIST! (Gen. 4:7's Mature sin) And in time the Holy Spirit can NO LONGER REACH US and we are MATURELY SEPERATED FROM HIM once again. And as Cain, God could not [MOVE] him, and he then was turned over to satan his then 'desired' new master. In fact, this was satan's FIRST 'MATURE' FULL FLEDGED CONVERT!

--Elijah

 

[francisdesales]

Naw Drew, we don't all think that you are catholic, or that you are trying to work your way to heaven because of YOUR LOVE FOR THE ONE WHO DAILY SAVES You!;)
And surely Fran does post the Working out of ones Love for Christ in Obedience very clearly!

--Elijah

Why thank you, that's the nicest thing you ever said about me!

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Like being a living sacrifice unto God..

Yes, today's reading from Hebrews, said at every Catholic Mass this morning, addresses just that need to become living sacrifices. When we come together as part of the Body in Divine Liturgy, we offer our own personal sacrifices with the rest of the parts of the Body present and with the Head Himself, Jesus, offering everything to the Father. Wonderful.

Show me where I ever said that Jesus does it all with respect to sanctification.. We are sanctified by the Holy Spirit although that also entails a willingness on the part of the person to agree with God..

Of course, which you denied earlier... Previously, you claimed "in Christ" merely means that Christ does His work without my "willingness on the part of the person", since we don't "work with God", according to you. Thus, my comments on the zero sum game. Go read you own posts. Clearly, you portrayed the relationship between Jesus and "me" as one where I do nothing but watch as a bystander, that God is not "my" helper, there is no synergy, and your denial of "work out your salvation in fear and trembling"..

This latest post by you is a 180 degree change. Welcome back...

and yes, I agree with God where He says that Apart from Me ye can do nothing, and that there are NONE good but one... or that there are none righteous, no not even one..

There are none righteous WITHOUT GOD, Eventide. Clearly, that is Paul's intent on refering to the Psalms in Romans 3. But in some of the very same Psalms Paul quotes, the writer sees himself as righteous. Others are righteous. You'd think Paul would know that? Of course. His point was not to state that all men are unrighteous - but that nothing we do alone, to include obeying external rituals, can make us righteous, if we do them without God.

But WITH God, I am being MADE righteous. "Unless YOUR righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you shall not enter into the Kingdom" YOURS. This means that when I am in Christ, I am personally being made righteous in God's eyes, making living sacrifices which are pleasing to the Lord. United with Jesus, I am righteous. Separated from Jesus, I cannot be righteous. Nothing I do WITHOUT Jesus can be given to God where He is obligated to pay me with a reward, since grace is a free gift, not a payment (Rom 4:4)

I agree with God that I am crucified with Christ and nevertheless I live.. YET NOT I, but Christ liveth in me..

Which means that I ALONE am not living. It is not I ALONE. It is I and Christ living. He is moving my spirit and I am responding to perform a good deed IN Him.

Have you read the parable of the sower of the seeds? We have discussed it previously. Isn't the soil, OUR RESPONSE, part of the equation that yields good fruit? WITHOUT THE SEED (Christ), we can NOT bear fruit. However, WITH THE SEED, it is not automatically bring forth good fruit. It must fall upon a grace-moved person willing to do the will of God.

Thus, the zero sum game fails. Placing God against the Christian totally misunderstands what God is doing and our role in our own sanctification. For if Christ merely covers us with His own righteousness, there is no point in furthering our own sanctification, for the Father would not look at us, only Jesus. That is why imputed righteousness just doesn't work as an attempt to explain how God works in the life of the Christian.

ohh, that's right... you could care less about the bible.

Apparently, you need more prayers for being a better Christian... I never said I could care less about the Bible. I read it and cite it here very often. I experience Jesus Christ though it, as a sacramental experience. I don't worship it, as you do, since the Bible itself is a man-made object (albeit inspired by God) and not God Himself. That very same Bible says we are to worship only ONE, God Himself. Not His Bible or the Scriptures. Can you tell me one place in the OT where the Jews worshipped the Bible, offered sacrifice to it, prayed to it???

Belittle.. this is the truth... you're a proud member of the special one true church..

Another example of your Christian walk. You admit that you must belittle me (despite the command to even love one's enemies, which I am not...). If you were baptized, you are also a member of the "special one true Church". Didn't I make that clear enough??? Where do I say I am a proud member, over and against anyone else here? There is no need to act childish.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

You're the one arguing that YOU are working for YOUR SALVATION right.. is that true or not ? Are you a member of the special one true church.. that would explain a lot to me about why you're arguing that you're working for it.

Eventide, slow down, you are again adding to other people's posts...

I have known Drew a long time here, and this subject comes up a lot on this forum. I have never seen Drew write that when a person is to "work out their salvation", to mean that we work it out ALONE and WITHOUT GOD. He adds that the Spirit of God is working WITH us, in us. And don't forget to read the second half of Phil 2:12-13. "FOR IT IS GOD WHO..."

So slow down before you make more rash conclusions. I sense that we are closer to each other's points of view here, but you are rushing to conclusions not warranted by Drew's posts.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

Yes, today's reading from Hebrews, said at every Catholic Mass this morning, addresses just that need to become living sacrifices. When we come together as part of the Body in Divine Liturgy, we offer our own personal sacrifices with the rest of the parts of the Body present and with the Head Himself, Jesus, offering everything to the Father. Wonderful.

Perhaps it's wonderful to those who are led to believe that the RCC is the one true church.. in reality it simply reveals that you have zero understanding of what the body of Christ actually is, which is His church, His future bride to be.

Of course, which you denied earlier... Previously, you claimed "in Christ" merely means that Christ does His work without my "willingness on the part of the person", since we don't "work with God", according to you. Thus, my comments on the zero sum game. Go read you own posts. Clearly, you portrayed the relationship between Jesus and "me" as one where I do nothing but watch as a bystander, that God is not "my" helper, there is no synergy, and your denial of "work out your salvation in fear and trembling"..

This latest post by you is a 180 degree change. Welcome back...

No, I want you to show me where I said anything remotely close to what you're claiming here. Your refusal to do so says it all.

There are none righteous WITHOUT GOD, Eventide. Clearly, that is Paul's intent on refering to the Psalms in Romans 3. But in some of the very same Psalms Paul quotes, the writer sees himself as righteous. Others are righteous. You'd think Paul would know that? Of course. His point was not to state that all men are unrighteous - but that nothing we do alone, to include obeying external rituals, can make us righteous, if we do them without God.

It's like Paul says.. NOT HAVING MY OWN righteousness, but the righteousness which is by faith in Christ.

But WITH God, I am being MADE righteous. "Unless YOUR righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you shall not enter into the Kingdom" YOURS. This means that when I am in Christ, I am personally being made righteous in God's eyes, making living sacrifices which are pleasing to the Lord. United with Jesus, I am righteous. Separated from Jesus, I cannot be righteous. Nothing I do WITHOUT Jesus can be given to God where He is obligated to pay me with a reward, since grace is a free gift, not a payment (Rom 4:4)

I'm not being made righteous at all.. my old man is still just as wretched as it ever was. My righteousness is the righteousness of Christ alone by faith in His perfect work.

I asked you before who you believe the OLD MAN is with respect to Paul telling us to PUT HIM OFF because he is corrupted by deceitful lusts..

WHO is the OLD MAN ?

This will get to the heart of the matter... because a Christian has a dual nature... they have their old Adamic nature which comes by the flesh, and they have a new spiritual nature because Christ is in them.. So we have the OLD MAN and the NEW MAN in the same lump.. and we're told clearly to PUT OFF the old man and to put on the Lord Jesus Christ..

So WHO IS the old man in your opinion ?

Thus, the zero sum game fails. Placing God against the Christian totally misunderstands what God is doing and our role in our own sanctification. For if Christ merely covers us with His own righteousness, there is no point in furthering our own sanctification, for the Father would not look at us, only Jesus. That is why imputed righteousness just doesn't work as an attempt to explain how God works in the life of the Christian.

It's CHRIST IN YOU that is your hope of glory, isn't it..? Or is it Christ AND you in your case..

Why do you ignore the simple truths of scripture which I posted.. like how that I am crucified with Christ and yet I live, YET NOT I, but CHRIST liveth in me... or that YEA ARE DEAD and your life is hid in Christ with God.. what's wrong.. don't you like those verses..?

Apparently, you need more prayers for being a better Christian... I never said I could care less about the Bible. I read it and cite it here very often. I experience Jesus Christ though it, as a sacramental experience. I don't worship it, as you do, since the Bible itself is a man-made object (albeit inspired by God) and not God Himself. That very same Bible says we are to worship only ONE, God Himself. Not His Bible or the Scriptures. Can you tell me one place in the OT where the Jews worshipped the Bible, offered sacrifice to it, prayed to it???

And yet here you are lying through your teeth about me worshipping the bible.. that's nice.

Another example of your Christian walk. You admit that you must belittle me (despite the command to even love one's enemies, which I am not...). If you were baptized, you are also a member of the "special one true Church". Didn't I make that clear enough??? Where do I say I am a proud member, over and against anyone else here? There is no need to act childish.

Regards

I have nothing to do with the RCC and here false doctrines.. how's that.. if you'd like to follow them then go right ahead.. but please don't associate me with the nonsense of Catholicism.

 

[jasoncran]

eventide i have a question for you.

you are anti-calvinist

yet you accept perseverance of the saints.

why?

also can you explain this sudden change of god?

ezekiel 3kjv

16 Now it came to pass at the end of seven days that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore hear a word from My mouth, and give them warning from Me: 18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
20 “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul.â€


somewhere god repented of this requirement?

and also this in revalation 22

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[Drew]

You're the one arguing that YOU are working for YOUR SALVATION right.. is that true or not ?

Well, I would say that the obedient Christian does have to "submit" to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. But, by any reasonable standard, the substantial "credit" for the transformation of the Christian believer belongs to the Holy Spirit.

I have repeatedly stated that the Holy Spirit is the real "engine" or driving force that is responsible for saving good works. So I am not sure why you keep asking me this. In the present post, I have indeed asserted that there is also an issue of the believer "co-operating" in the very limited sense of allowing the Spirit to do its work.

Why are you not answering the questions in post 103?

I will suggest this: you know full well that Romans 2:6-7 cannot be read any other way than as a terse, clear, unambiguous statement that final salvation is based on, yes, "what we have done".

I will re-post the text for all to consider:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Now, PizzaGuy insists that this statement does not declare that eternal life is included in the package that is given on the basis of behaviour. I wonder how he deals with the words "eternal life"? Does he simply wish them away and insert "rewards"? Only he knows.

What in the world can one say to such a bald, shameless denial of the clear content of set of simple English sentences?

 

[Drew]

Are you a member of the special one true church..

For the love of sanity, read my posts man!!!

I am not RCC

Are you really interested in a two-way exchange? The evidence suggests otherwise:

1. You misrepresent me re my take on "our role" in salvific good works;

2. You ask questions I have already answered.

3. And for what must be third or fourth time:

PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTIONS IN POST 103!!!

 

[Eventide]

NOT!

Seriously, are you actually reading my posts - I mean actually reading them.

Perhaps your commitment to your position makes it impossible for you to actually hear what I am saying.

I will not answer this question again.

Great.. sorry if I missed you not saying that you're working for your salvation.. I thought that was what you were arguing for.. ?

So we're in agreement again... we do NOT work for salvation.. not that it matters..

 

[Eventide]

eventide i have a question for you.

you are anti-calvinist

yet you accept perseverance of the saints.

why?

also can you explain this sudden change of god?

ezekiel 3kjv

16 Now it came to pass at the end of seven days that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 17 “Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; therefore hear a word from My mouth, and give them warning from Me: 18 When I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life, that same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 Yet, if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered your soul.
20 “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you did not give him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man that the righteous should not sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; also you will have delivered your soul.â€


somewhere god repented of this requirement?

and also this in revalation 22

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I've been on and off the fence in my latter years concerning losing salvation.. sometimes it seems that it's the case and yet other times not the case.. for He that hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.. and there are countless stories where those who have been declared righteous by God (Abraham for example, or King David) who would do some pretty awful things and yet not lose it etc.. I think that once we become a member of the body of Christ (not possible in the OT) that we are sealed unto the day of redemption.. that doesn't mean that we can't grieve or quench the Spirit of Christ in us.. and so it's always a fine line..

With respect to this thread.. I chimed in with respect to those who believe that they are working with God for their salvation.. not really the same thing although related at some level.

Good question about Ez.. I haven't studied that book in some time so I do not feel ready to comment on that.. even though it seems cut and dry.. I need to see the surrounding context etc and then think and chew on it some more..

 

[Eventide]

Well, I would say that the obedient Christian does have to "submit" to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. But, by any reasonable standard, the substantial "credit" for the transformation of the Christian believer belongs to the Holy Spirit.

I have repeatedly stated that the Holy Spirit is the real "engine" or driving force that is responsible for saving good works. So I am not sure why you keep asking me this. In the present post, I have indeed asserted that there is also an issue of the believer "co-operating" in the very limited sense of allowing the Spirit to do its work.

Why are you not answering the questions in post 103?

I will suggest this: you know full well that Romans 2:6-7 cannot be read any other way than as a terse, clear, unambiguous statement that final salvation is based on, yes, "what we have done".

I will re-post the text for all to consider:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Now, PizzaGuy insists that this statement does not declare that eternal life is included in the package that is given on the basis of behaviour. I wonder how he deals with the words "eternal life"? Does he simply wish them away and insert "rewards"? Only he knows.

What in the world can one say to such a bald, shameless denial of the clear content of set of simple English sentences?

NOW why are YOU asking me to answer what I already have on a couple of occasions..? I told you what I think about the Romans 2 scripture and if you don't like then I'm sorry.. it's just my opinion on the matter, just like yours is.

 

[jasoncran]

i am there myself

personally the idea of the perseverence of the saints is the best way to say osas

what this means is that if you really repented and did live the life but for some reason(as we all do)
grew cold, hurt by the church and became bitter,or got involved in a sin that you cant just shake off.

god is able to bring you back as he desire no soul to be lost. he will deliver you from the sin, and also send saints to draw you back or make your life such hell that you choose to come back.

if satan can manipulate us and decieve us to sin, surely the almighty god is able to goad us to come back

in any event free will isnt denied just goad into the direction of the being that is manipulating

paul says clearly sin doth easily beset us.

 

[Eventide]

i am there myself

personally the idea of the perseverence of the saints is the best way to say osas

what this means is that if you really repented and did live the life but for some reason(as we all do)
grew cold, hurt by the church and became bitter,or got involved in a sin that you cant just shake off.

god is able to bring you back as he desire no soul to be lost. he will deliver you from the sin, and also send saints to draw you back or make your life such hell that you choose to come back.

if satan can manipulate us and decieve us to sin, surely the almighty god is able to goad us to come back

in any event free will isnt denied just goad into the direction of the being that is manipulating

paul says clearly sin doth easily beset us.

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.. and I hear what you're saying.. I've seen how wretched I am and can be because I've been in Christ for ~25 years now.. through great times and awful times.. and it's always a war between the flesh and the Spirit as they are contrary to one another.

 

[jasoncran]

now then if i could only convince some in my church of that.

i do think its possible to be lost after recieving salvation, just very very unlikely.

 

[Ed the Ned]

I don't believe we can loose our salvation once saved. This can only happen if our conversion was not real to begin with. Jerry Bridges in one of his books stated that at an evangelical conference a question was asked to the participants to explain the gospel. Out of about two thousand people only one gave an acceptable answer. This leads me to question how the gospel is being taught and how it is understood.

 

[jasoncran]

I don't believe we can loose our salvation once saved. This can only happen if our conversion was not real to begin with. Jerry Bridges in one of his books stated that at an evangelical conference a question was asked to the participants to explain the gospel. Out of about two thousand people only one gave an acceptable answer. This leads me to question how the gospel is being taught and how it is understood.

then can you explain to me what that verse in revalation 22:19 means?

it can only be addressed to the believer,one has to be in the book of life first to be removed from it.