Once Saved, Always Saved?

[handy]

i am there myself

personally the idea of the perseverence of the saints is the best way to say osas

what this means is that if you really repented and did live the life but for some reason(as we all do)
grew cold, hurt by the church and became bitter,or got involved in a sin that you cant just shake off.

god is able to bring you back as he desire no soul to be lost. he will deliver you from the sin, and also send saints to draw you back or make your life such hell that you choose to come back.

if satan can manipulate us and decieve us to sin, surely the almighty god is able to goad us to come back

in any event free will isnt denied just goad into the direction of the being that is manipulating

paul says clearly sin doth easily beset us.

Jason, I agree with the idea of preservation of the saints as well, just not in the Calvinistic sense. I do agree that God is able to goad, or perhaps a better word is woo, us back. Surely God is able.

The thing is, is it always the case that a Christian who, for whatever reason, falls away from God, will come back?

I don't think the Scriptures teach us that this is so. Hebrews have some pretty stern words of warning about this. As do other texts in the epistles. Our Lord's Parable of the Vines (John 15) is the most sobering of all. If we do not abide in Christ, we are thrown away as a branch. I believe a very integral part of God's preservation of us are these warnings to us to stay in the faith, to not quench the Spirit, to hold fast.

The reason why the Church is so divided on this issue of whether or not one can or cannot lose salvation is because there are texts which speak to both sides of the issue. We've all seen them. Long lists of texts that seem to "prove" OSAS, equally long lists that seem to "prove" that one can indeed lose salvation.

I think the best way to resolve and reconcile these lists is to stop arguing back and forth and put more study into exactly how "salvation" takes place. For years, in my own Christian walk, I sincerely believed that once one asked forgiveness and turned one's life to Christ, one was "saved". Now, I think it's far more of a process than an event. A process which comes with warnings to remain in Christ as we go through it, and comes with many promises of eternal life if we do remain in Christ. But, the key is we need to remain in Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

yes i am seeing that as i mature as well.

while the newbie in christ is just as saved as the elder who has walked for thirty plus yrs.the latter is held to a higher standard and is more sanctified(hopefully).

in my statement the will isnt overidden just that if one has come to christ that its hard,real hard to turn away.

can it happen, yes.

 

[Ed the Ned]

God shall take away his part out of the book of life - Perhaps there is here an intimation that this would be most likely to be done by those who professed to be Christians, and who supposed that their names were in the book of life. In fact, most of the corruptions of the sacred Scriptures have been attempted by those who have professed some form of Christianity. Infidels have but little interest in attempting such changes, and but little influence to make them received by the church. It is most convenient for them, as it is most agreeable to their feelings, to reject the Bible altogether. When it said here that "God would take away his part out of the book of life," the meaning is not that his name had been written in that book, but that he would take away the part which he might have had, or which he professed to have in that book. Such corruption of the divine oracles would show that they had no true religion, and would be excluded from heaven. On the phrase "book of life," see the notes on Revelation 3:5

- Barnes and Noble Bible Commentary

I understand your reasoning, but beg to differ. If God saved only to unsave a true believer then why save in the first place. Once we believe in the true Christ and the true meaning of the Gospel and accept Christ on that basis and we repent, and believe in Him as our Saviour we will be saved and we will be saved forever.

 

[Ed the Ned]

The focus should be on preaching the true Gospel, so that it is understood.

 

[jasoncran]

- Barnes and Noble Bible Commentary

I understand your reasoning, but beg to differ. If God saved only to unsave a true believer then why save in the first place. Once we believe in the true Christ and the true meaning of the Gospel and accept Christ on that basis and we repent, and believe in Him as our Saviour we will be saved and we will be saved forever.

i hope that you are calvinist? as that means we have no free will but a limited one.

yes i do agree and my pastor teaches that the church needs to actually disciple the new believer.

trust me. i can hold my own in any argument on what i know, but i dont see alot of other believers that even can defend what they believe.

few in the pews bother to read the bible or actually see if what the pastor says is in the bible.

i challenged my pastor on one thing. he preached that we are in the end times and the rapture is near(no date) but that nwo is in place or is near.

i asked him who the nwo was in his eyes.

 

[handy]

The focus should be on preaching the true Gospel, so that it is understood.

I agree. I think often that the gospel is presented that salvation is an event that takes place the moment a person believes.

I don't think this is what the Scriptures teach.

From the moment we believe we are "in Christ". But, we need to remain "in Christ". If we die whilst "in Christ" we are saved. If we backslide, and quench the spirit and are not "in Christ" when we die, our salvation is by no means assured.

Jason said, "while the newbie in christ is just as saved as the elder who has walked for thirty plus yrs.the latter is held to a higher standard and is more sanctified(hopefully)."

I agree. As a matter of fact, this is exactly what I was getting at by my statement above that we need remain "in Christ". Not sure about the "more sanctified" part, but yes, the newbie in Christ will be every bit as saved as the elder saint if both are in Christ.

 

[Eventide]

So when we're first born again by the Spirit of God, being baptized into that one body by the same Spirit.. we are babes as the scriptures declare.. and we depend on the milk of the word to help us grow spiritually, because that's what the word of God is.. our spiritual food and sustenance.. Christ is being formed in us as Paul says in Galatians..

This is why it is so vital to be in the word and not just passively listen to what others tell us..

It doesn't take the Christian long to realize that there is still a serious problem going on within their members.. Paul says that it's a war.. the flesh and the Spirit are completely contrary to one another.. the flesh can do nothing good and the Spirit of Christ can do nothing but good..

This is why I think that it's vital for Christians to be taught that this will always be the case.. that the flesh and the Spirit are never going to get along or be reconciled..

God's solution is that we are crucified with Christ.. even DEAD as Paul says in Colossians.. although I understand this in a positional sense.. God declares it done.. and yet we still have the war going on in our members...

Flesh gives birth to flesh..

Spirit gives birth to Spirit..

When we were born naturally into this world we were born according to the flesh.. and the scriptures are clear in teaching that ALL in Adam (according to the flesh) are under the same condemnation.. Jew and Gentile alike all in the same boat.. condemned in Adam and yet justified freely in Christ.. for there is no condemnation to those who are IN CHRIST, who walk NOT according to the FLESH but by the Spirit of Christ which is in them..

This is where I believe the OLD MAN and the NEW MAN are important in scripture.. the old man is our Adamic nature.. it is not justified but condemned.. even AFTER we are saved.. it's not our flesh that is justified before God but the Spirit of Christ in us that has justification of LIFE.. for He IS the way, the truth and the LIFE..

We are to put off the old man who is corrupt according to deceitful lusts and put on the new man who is created (in us) in righteousness and true holiness.. no doubt this is Christ in us, the hidden man of the heart.. for Paul also tells us in Romans to PUT ON the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh.. the only remedy is to die.

This is why IMO Calvinism has it all wrong with respect to election... because God isn't electing us at all.. in fact, He has already condemned every last one of us in Adam.. God always chooses us in Christ.. because HE IS the Chosen One in whom the Father delights..

Christ is our righteousness and it is clear in the scriptures that this righteousness of HIS is imputed to those who believe God, just like Abraham.. he believed God when He spoke and he was declared righteous by that alone.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.. and the bottom line imo is that most don't actually believe what God HAS said in His word.. that there are none good but one, that there are none righteous.. that if we shall seek to save OUR LIFE we shall lose it.. etc etc..

Christ in you.. our hope of glory.. not Christ and me, but Christ in me.

 

[Eventide]

Romans 7

This is why I believe that Romans 7 is reality for the Christian... that what Paul says is truly the case.. that there is nothing good in him, in his flesh.. and again, they're always at war with each other.. with the FLESH we serve the law of sin.. because that's all it can do.. and with the MIND the Spirit of Christ.. we need to consistently renew our minds and literally be brainwashed by the word of God.. obviously I'm using that term in a positive sense here.. it's vital to renew our minds and feed on the word of God.. chew on it.. digest it.. let it fill our being.. it's the mind of Christ !

So that's why I disagree that Romans 7 is speaking in a past tense sense about the Christian.. because the word of God is living and powerful.. it's not some static lifeless book which teaches on a single plane.. it's literally infinite in its power to conform the believer to Christ, because again it is the Spirit and mind of Christ.

O wretched man that I AM... is what Paul says.. not O wretched man that I WAS.. I'm still a wretched man in the FLESH and I always will be.. because the flesh gives birth to the flesh and the Spirit to the Spirit.. they're not reconcilable.. they're enemies and war within our members all the time.. til the day we die..

Those who are in Christ are carrying this dead man around with us.. and we all know how he likes to reign and rule in our life.. and sin does so easily beset us..

We can't serve two masters.. either the flesh must go or I'll reap the consequences of not putting him off as I should.

It reminds me of that song by Mercy Me.. So long Self.. or something like that.. great song about how he just needs to go.. there's no room for him if Christ is going to be on the throne of my life.

 

[Elijah674]

yes i am seeing that as i mature as well.

while the newbie in christ is just as saved as the elder who has walked for thirty plus yrs.the latter is held to a higher standard and is more sanctified(hopefully).

in my statement the will isnt overidden just that if one has come to christ that its hard,real hard to turn away.

can it happen, yes.

Good posting. The only 'spiritual' maturity one can attain to, is by knowing what God requires. Rom. 8:14 + Phil. 4:13 (anything less is failure!)
--Elijah

 

[handy]

Evantide,

I agree with much, if not all, of what you are saying.

The only thing is, some might make the conclusion that you are saying that we are incapable of doing anything ourselves, even with Christ in us. At least, this is the impression I've gained from your writings. The reality is, we can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us.

You've often asked "is it Christ and me or Christ in me"? I know somewhere in this long thread, I replied, it's Christ in me and me in Christ. As long as I remain in Christ, I will be saved and not only saved, but also have the strength to do all those good works that were prepared for me to do and to bear fruit. But, if I do not remain in Christ, then then there is no longer any promise for salvation.

 

[Drew]

NOW why are YOU asking me to answer what I already have on a couple of occasions..? I told you what I think about the Romans 2 scripture and if you don't like then I'm sorry.. it's just my opinion on the matter, just like yours is.

A person who says they have done something when it is clear that they have not is either lying or self-deluded.

I have repeatedly ask you two very clear questions - and you have both not answered them and then bore false witness that you did.

Enough of the games, please. Telling me "what you think" about the Romans 2 text is not an answer to 2 clear, well-posed questions.

I think we both know why you will not answer these questions. But to ensure that you held to account - here is a repost of one of several posts where I asked you two questions that you have not answered.

You have not anwered the questions of post 103!!

Here they are again:

What does Paul actually say:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

PizzaGuy (or Eventide): What is it, precisely that Paul says God will give?

PizzaGuy (or Eventide): And on what basis, precisely does Paul say this "something" will be given?

Now enough of the dancing. Just answer these two questions, please.

Don't answer something else, don't tell me that these questions are not valid questions - they are clear, correctly posed questions in relation to a simple set of sentences from Romans 2.

Now, please, take responsibility for proper debate and answer these 2 questions.

 

[Drew]

Re: Romans 7

This is why I believe that Romans 7 is reality for the Christian... that what Paul says is truly the case.. that there is nothing good in him, in his flesh.. and again, they're always at war with each other.. with the FLESH we serve the law of sin.

I have posted an argument as to why Romans 7 is not about Paul the individual. It is in post number 116.

We all need time to answer all the challenges, and I may well have not addressed all your points. Fair enough - remind me about this as I am reminding you.

Post 116 is an argument as to why Romans 7 is not about Paul the individual. It needs to be dealt with, sooner or later.

 

[francisdesales]

Perhaps it's wonderful to those who are led to believe that the RCC is the one true church.. in reality it simply reveals that you have zero understanding of what the body of Christ actually is, which is His church, His future bride to be.

And where did I say that the "RCC" is the one true Church??? This displays the simple inability to read someone's posts - and repeating ad nauseum the same mistakes that you have been corrected on in previous posts. At what point did I say "Roman" in any of these discussions? As usual, you jump the gun and engage your mouth before your brain... 2

After viewing the rest of your unedifying and name-calling post, I don't see the point in discussing theology with you. Perhaps as you mature in Christ and learn to bridle your tongue, we can revisit this.

Regards

 

[Eventide]

Evantide,

I agree with much, if not all, of what you are saying.

The only thing is, some might make the conclusion that you are saying that we are incapable of doing anything ourselves, even with Christ in us. At least, this is the impression I've gained from your writings. The reality is, we can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us.

We can do all things THROUGH Christ.. are you suggesting that we could do all things through ourselves ? I doubt it.

You've often asked "is it Christ and me or Christ in me"? I know somewhere in this long thread, I replied, it's Christ in me and me in Christ. As long as I remain in Christ, I will be saved and not only saved, but also have the strength to do all those good works that were prepared for me to do and to bear fruit. But, if I do not remain in Christ, then then there is no longer any promise for salvation.

Absolutely we are in Christ.. and if any man is in Christ he is a new creation, old things are passed away.. behold all things are become new..

I'm not really sure what you're asking here, although it appears to be that you're looking for some kind of credit for goodness ? Is that right ?

 

[Eventide]

And where did I say that the "RCC" is the one true Church??? This displays the simple inability to read someone's posts - and repeating ad nauseum the same mistakes that you have been corrected on in previous posts. At what point did I say "Roman" in any of these discussions? As usual, you jump the gun and engage your mouth before your brain... 2

Oh sorry, you must be Orthodox then.. same thing imo.. I must have assumed you were Catholic because you said something about Mary being the model for who you shall become..

After viewing the rest of your unedifying and name-calling post, I don't see the point in discussing theology with you. Perhaps as you mature in Christ and learn to bridle your tongue, we can revisit this.

Regards

Good, tell His All Holiness that I said hi.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Romans 7

I have posted an argument as to why Romans 7 is not about Paul the individual. It is in post number 116.

We all need time to answer all the challenges, and I may well have not addressed all your points. Fair enough - remind me about this as I am reminding you.

Post 116 is an argument as to why Romans 7 is not about Paul the individual. It needs to be dealt with, sooner or later.

The simple way to prove this is to simply ask yourself these questions..

Is there anything good in your flesh ?

Does your flesh serve the law of sin..?

Does your flesh always war with the Spirit of Christ in you ?

Will this be the case until you die.. ?

The answers should be obvious..

1. NO, There is nothing good in me, that is in my flesh.

2. Yes, my flesh serves the law of sin.. for flesh gives birth to flesh.. there's nothing good in it.

3. YES.. that's a simple biblical fact..

4. YES, I will carry this flesh with me until the day that I die.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Romans 7

I have posted an argument as to why Romans 7 is not about Paul the individual. It is in post number 116.

We all need time to answer all the challenges, and I may well have not addressed all your points. Fair enough - remind me about this as I am reminding you.

Post 116 is an argument as to why Romans 7 is not about Paul the individual. It needs to be dealt with, sooner or later.

So here's the third time (maybe the fourth) that I have answered this.. The text says that those who SEEK TO DO GOOD will be rewarded (or repayed) for doing so..

We also know that there are more than 100 verses in the bible which teach that we are SAVED by GRACE through FAITH and NOT by WORKS.. so it's impossible that we are working for salvation.. this is reward for those who DO persistently SEEK to DO GOOD, and the only way that any man CAN do good is to have Christ in them, the one who alone is good.

 

[jasoncran]

i think the problem here is the bastardisation of what salvation is.

it is not calling on the lord and not even changing and growing in him

but rather that actual fruits meet of repentance is shown and growth.

that is what the contra osas is stating.

if you arent a calvinist then its logical to believe that one does have the will to turn from god and not go back.

does god force anyone to serve him?

 

[Eventide]

i think the problem here is the bastardisation of what salvation is.

it is not calling on the lord and not even changing and growing in him

but rather that actual fruits meet of repentance is shown and growth.

that is what the contra osas is stating.

if you arent a calvinist then its logical to believe that one does have the will to turn from god and not go back.

does god force anyone to serve him?

I agree.. God isn't mocked.. He is fully aware that we shall reap what we sow.. those who DO persistently seek to do well will be rewarded as such and those who do evil are going to reap the consequences of that.. and this in no way changes the simple biblical fact that we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (that entails agreeing with God's word in all things) to be saved.

Scripture could not be clearer in stating that we are SAVED by GRACE through FAITH...and that it is NOT of OURSELVES. We are declared RIGHTEOUS in God's eyes by BELIEVING HIM when He speaks.. and He has spoken through His word which lives and abides for ever.

 

[Elijah674]

I agree.. God isn't mocked.. He is fully aware that we shall reap what we sow.. those who DO persistently seek to do well will be rewarded as such and those who do evil are going to reap the consequences of that.. and this in no way changes the simple biblical fact that we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (that entails agreeing with God's word in all things) to be saved.

Scripture could not be clearer in stating that we are SAVED by GRACE through FAITH...and that it is NOT of OURSELVES. We are declared RIGHTEOUS in God's eyes by BELIEVING HIM when He speaks.. and He has spoken through His word which lives and abides for ever.

Hey, 'i' don't want to put words into your post that might not in bottom/line be there, yet the postings all seem to say that even rome's faith has them all OSAS as well as you'ins?? What makes one of you saved & not the others who are BELIEVING???

--Elijah