Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Eventide]

Re: Romans 7

I have posted an argument as to why Romans 7 is not about Paul the individual. It is in post number 116.

We all need time to answer all the challenges, and I may well have not addressed all your points. Fair enough - remind me about this as I am reminding you.

Post 116 is an argument as to why Romans 7 is not about Paul the individual. It needs to be dealt with, sooner or later.

Let me add that my contention is not that this is not about Paul (even though it is about Paul), but rather that your previous assertion was that Romans 7 pertains to 'pre birth' state of a Christian.. imo it doesn't.. it speaks of the reality of the war within the members of a Christian.. specifically his flesh being contrary to the Spirit of Christ which is in him.

 

[Eventide]

Hey, 'i' don't want to put words into your post that might not in bottom/line be there, yet the postings all seem to say that even rome's faith has them all OSAS as well as you'ins?? What makes one of you saved & not the others who are BELIEVING???

--Elijah

Good question.. and I think the answer is that many in Christendom actually DO NOT BELIEVE what God has for ever settled in HIS WORD, which lives and abides for ever.

How many believe that there are none good but one, and that is God ?

How many believe that there are none righteous, no, not even one.. ?

How many believe that if we shall seek to save OUR LIFE we shall lose it.. ?

Get the picture.. ?

And let me add that I'm no different.. I have been and can be the worst Christian on earth when the rubber meets the road.. and I've seen enough of myself and know what I am in contrast to the infinitely glorious, majestic, and perfect man, the Lord Jesus Christ... Christ in me is my hope of glory, not Christ and me.. I wish that my flesh could be dead in a practical sense but it's not.. we deal with it all the time.. and I think that it's one way that God tests us in these things.. We know, there's no excuse.. but sin in us is powerful, it easily besets us at times.. especially when we think we have it all figured out..

Anyway, that's my take on the whole thing.. take a look at yourself through the true light of Christ and then tell me that you're working to save yourself.. in a way it is working because we're dying to self in the process.. but it's a lifelong process which I believe is already settled by God.. because I am crucified with Christ and nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me.. and this life I live by FAITH (trust) in the Son of God.

 

[Elijah674]

Re: Romans 7

The simple way to prove this is to simply ask yourself these questions..

Is there anything good in your flesh ?

Does your flesh serve the law of sin..?

Does your flesh always war with the Spirit of Christ in you ?

Will this be the case until you die.. ?

The answers should be obvious..

1. NO, There is nothing good in me, that is in my flesh.

2. Yes, my flesh serves the law of sin.. for flesh gives birth to flesh.. there's nothing good in it.

3. YES.. that's a simple biblical fact..

4. YES, I will carry this flesh with me until the day that I die.

You need to define good? Surely you do find many non/Christians as well as what you say about yourself?? that do much good! Surely before you became a Christian, you loved your family. Your thinking seems to suggest that God's creation have lost everything that God originally created them with at once. So there needs to be this as stated, that mankind has NOTHING for which they can now EARN SALVATION with, except through Christ! Acts 4:12

And Inspiration in Rom. 7 needs to be seen at ones life before & after Paul's rebirth. Note his Inspired Words in 1 Cor. 6:11 'And such WERE SOME OF YOU'. If one is still letting the carnal flesh rule the Born Again mind instead of the other way around?? Then they surely do have a real problem. And Rom. 8:14's Leading of the Holy Spirit is just still trash talk with them. They CLAIM Justification (ibide. 1) and then refuse to be LED.

--Elijah

 

[handy]

I said, "The only thing is, some might make the conclusion that you are saying that we are incapable of doing anything ourselves, even with Christ in us. At least, this is the impression I've gained from your writings. The reality is, we can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us."
Response?

We can do all things THROUGH Christ.. are you suggesting that we could do all things through ourselves ? I doubt it.

I said, "As long as I remain in Christ, I will be saved and not only saved, but also have the strength to do all those good works that were prepared for me to do and to bear fruit. But, if I do not remain in Christ, then then there is no longer any promise for salvation."

Response?

Absolutely we are in Christ.. and if any man is in Christ he is a new creation, old things are passed away.. behold all things are become new..

I'm not really sure what you're asking here, although it appears to be that you're looking for some kind of credit for goodness ? Is that right ?

And with this, I'm joining the others in ceasing to engage in any kind of discussion with you, Eventide. You take what people clearly state, and twist it to mean the opposite. Learn to listen to others, instead of superimposing your preconceived notions onto others.

i think the problem here is the bastardisation of what salvation is.

it is not calling on the lord and not even changing and growing in him

but rather that actual fruits meet of repentance is shown and growth.

that is what the contra osas is stating.

if you arent a calvinist then its logical to believe that one does have the will to turn from god and not go back.

does god force anyone to serve him?

Jason, we are currently studying the Exodus story with the kids and last night we went over how Pharaoh kept hardening his heart and hardening his heart until at last he passed the point of no return. He acknowledged God and his own sin, asked for forgiveness and then hardened his heart once more. After that, God Himself hardened Pharaoh's heart. Even when Pharaoh confessed his sin and asked for forgiveness, God continued to harden his heart.

So, yes, God can and does force some to serve Him, even the mighty Pharaoh. However, Pharaoh's story is not a story of salvation and redemption. Christ came to redeem us and save us. To cause our will to be submitted to His will out of love for Him, not to superimpose His will upon the unwilling.

I agree that salvation is far more about actual fruits of redemption and growth. Our Lord told us that this is the one true test of knowing who His own is: they shall be known by their fruit. The fruit of the Spirit cannot be counterfeited. And, it is in this fruit of the Spirit that we show that we are on the path to salvation.

Apart from Christ, we can do nothing. But, when we have the Spirit within us, when we are in Christ...then we should be showing forth the fruit of the Spirit as we are doing the works God set for us to do. If we are not...then we truly need to examine our confession.

 

[francisdesales]

Oh sorry, you must be Orthodox then.. same thing imo.. I must have assumed you were Catholic because you said something about Mary being the model for who you shall become..

I am Catholic. However, the Catholic Church is not just "Roman".

I thought you were a former Roman Catholic.

Btw, the Greek Orthodox believe the same thing about Mary that we do in that regard, which should give you cause for concern on your deviation from early Christianity.

Good, tell His All Holiness that I said hi.

I'll keep you in my prayers, just the same...

 

[cyberjosh]

Oh sorry, you must be Orthodox then.. same thing imo.. I must have assumed you were Catholic because you said something about Mary being the model for who you shall become..



Good, tell His All Holiness that I said hi.

Hi Eventide,

It is understandable that tensions run high in discussions like this, but it is not necessary to engage in denominational slurs.

If you think it comes down to a discussion of church tradition & sola scriptura I'm sure you can create a thread in the 1-on-1 section to address that. But if not, then sticking directly to scripture is your best bet for making a theological argument.

God bless,

~Josh

 

[Eventide]

Re: Romans 7

You need to define good?

This is exactly what I am talking about.. why in the world would I need to define what GOOD is when the word of God does.. don't we BELIEVE Him..

God is Good.

There are none good but one, and that is God..

Is this true or not ?

Surely you do find many non/Christians as well as what you say about yourself?? that do much good! Surely before you became a Christian, you loved your family. Your thinking seems to suggest that God's creation have lost everything that God originally created them with at once. So there needs to be this as stated, that mankind has NOTHING for which they can now EARN SALVATION with, except through Christ! Acts 4:12

The end of your statement sums it up imo.. there is nothing which we can DO (in the flesh, in our old Adamic nature) to earn the gift of salvation through God's Son..

And Inspiration in Rom. 7 needs to be seen at ones life before & after Paul's rebirth. Note his Inspired Words in 1 Cor. 6:11 'And such WERE SOME OF YOU'. If one is still letting the carnal flesh rule the Born Again mind instead of the other way around?? Then they surely do have a real problem. And Rom. 8:14's Leading of the Holy Spirit is just still trash talk with them. They CLAIM Justification (ibide. 1) and then refuse to be LED.

--Elijah

I agree that it should never be the norm for a Christian to be carnal, we can be carnal, because the flesh wars with the Spirit.. it's one of the most important principles in Christian living.. dying to self and letting Christ live through us.

 

[Eventide]

Hi Eventide,

It is understandable that tensions run high in discussions like this, but it is not necessary to engage in denominational slurs.

If you think it comes down to a discussion of church tradition & sola scriptura I'm sure you can create a thread in the 1-on-1 section to address that. But if not, then sticking directly to scripture is your best bet for making a theological argument.

God bless,

~Josh

You're right Josh.. I'll try to do better.. I just have little patience for false teaching and imo the self proclaimed one true church is deceiving multitudes through its false doctrines and teaching.. the most significant perhaps being that a man can dunk an infant in water and then declare that they are born again by God..

 

[Eventide]

I said, "The only thing is, some might make the conclusion that you are saying that we are incapable of doing anything ourselves, even with Christ in us. At least, this is the impression I've gained from your writings. The reality is, we can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens us."
Response?

No.. certainly we can do all things with Christ in us.. and isn't He the main engine so to speak for producing these good works in us ? It's not the flesh, it's the Spirit of Christ in me, right ?

I said, "As long as I remain in Christ, I will be saved and not only saved, but also have the strength to do all those good works that were prepared for me to do and to bear fruit. But, if I do not remain in Christ, then then there is no longer any promise for salvation."

I think the key here is remaining in Christ.. as I mentioned in another post.. I'm not sure about that and have strong convictions each way.. so the main thing I suppose is to at least have this fundamental understanding that there IS a war going on in my members etc etc.. God isn't making me better.. I don't see that in scripture.. Christ is growing in me.. It's like the Father gets to see His own Son grow up in Christian after Christian..

How can that not be the case when the Lord flatly states that if any man shall come after Me, then let him deny himself and take up his cross, and follow Me.. ? ?

Even after we're saved.. is it our old way of life which is justified in us.. NO, of course not.. it's the life of Christ in us that is justified..

Response?

 

[Ashua]

I suppose Jude spoke in vain concerning apostasy, and that verses such as the following are empty threats.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Elijah674]

You're right Josh.. I'll try to do better.. I just have little patience for false teaching and imo the self proclaimed one true church is deceiving multitudes through its false doctrines and teaching.. the most significant perhaps being that a man can dunk an infant in water and then declare that they are born again by God..

And no, I ain't Josh.;)
But, Great Post content as 'i' see required in Rev. 3:16's Love relationship with your Master!!
And if you want a site that has a little more freedom? then drop me a personal e-mail.
But you best not mention what infant dipping' church does that here in this thread, huh? Yet, the SCRIPTURE does DOCUMENT the Rev. Whore + her DAUGHTERS,, just not by name.

What is astounding, is how some teach here that they can be OSAS but not the 'infant dippers' who 'BELIEVE' as well. (this type of belief perhaps? John 12:42-43)

--Elijah

And me?? I think that I will just take [my own] sabbatical from this site. (and that has nothing to me posting on the 7th day Sabbath)

 

[francisdesales]

You're right Josh.. I'll try to do better.. I just have little patience for false teaching and imo the self proclaimed one true church is deceiving multitudes through its false doctrines and teaching..

Funny how you say one thing and then in the next sentence, you make such a statement. Basically, you don't mean what you say. Shows where your heart is...

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

1Co 15:1 Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand,
1Co 15:2 by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain.

So its possible to believe in vain. He is speaking to Christians here. "IF" is where the condition for salvation is given. IF ye hold fast to the word which Paul preached. If you do not hold fast, you would have believed in vain.

 

[Cornelius]

If we do not love our brothers and sister, we are not really Christians. Those are only Christians by mouth and not by deed

1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, cannot love God whom he hath not seen.

 

[Cornelius]

1Co 15:1 Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand,
1Co 15:2 by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain.

So its possible to believe in vain. He is speaking to Christians here. "IF" is where the condition for salvation is given. IF ye hold fast to the word which Paul preached. If you do not hold fast, you would have believed in vain.

Here Paul confirms the "IF"

1Jn 2:24 As for you, let that abide in you which ye heard from the beginning. If that which ye heard from the beginning abide in you, ye also shall abide in the Son, and in the Father.

Its a condition . The true gospel must abide in you.

If it does not, you cannot claim Christianity anymore. We have to abide in the Son and in the Father.

 

[Cornelius]

You cannot be a Christian if you are not a disciple of Jesus. Disciple means "a learner and a follower"

Luk 14:27 Whosoever doth not bear his own cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

So those who call themselves Christians and are not taking up their cross , cannot be a disciple and cannot be saved. No matter what their denomination teaches. Dying to self is a condition for salvation.

 

[Cornelius]

Joh 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled: He that eateth my bread lifted up his heel against me.
This verse does not only speak of Judas, but of believers who will fall away. Those are they that have "eaten His bread" (The Word of God) and then have lifted up their heel against Him. Judas is not the only believer to ever change his mind for financial gain.In the time to come, many believers who are sitting with you in the pews at this moment, will take the mark of the Beast because they want to survive. They would want to eat and buy. They do not know what faith is and how to use faith to stay alive, so they must turn to the world for their survival.

 

[Cornelius]

Here is one of the clearest scriptures about loosing your salvation. These talk about Christians who are really mature in the Lord. Notice that they have tasted the heavenly gift and they have partaken of the Holy Spirit ! These are real Christians.

Heb 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, (Only Christians can partake of the Holy Spirit)
Heb 6:5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, (Only the very mature have done this !)
Heb 6:6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (You can only crucify Christ again, if you have already partaken of the gift of salvation once ! Like Moses who struck the Rock (Christ) twice, that is not allowed.. These people cannot repent again, nor can they return unto salvation , God reprobated them )

 

[Drew]

NOW why are YOU asking me to answer what I already have on a couple of occasions..? I told you what I think about the Romans 2 scripture and if you don't like then I'm sorry.. it's just my opinion on the matter, just like yours is.

A person who says they have done something when it is clear that they have not is either lying or self-deluded.

I have repeatedly ask you two very clear questions - and you have both not answered them and then bore false witness that you did.

Enough of the games, please. Telling me "what you think" about the Romans 2 text is not an answer to 2 clear, well-posed questions.

I think we both know why you will not answer these questions. But to ensure that you held to account - here is a repost of one of several posts where I asked you two questions that you have not answered.

You have not anwered the questions of post 103!!

Here they are again:

What does Paul actually say:

6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

PizzaGuy (or Eventide): What is it, precisely that Paul says God will give?

PizzaGuy (or Eventide): And on what basis, precisely does Paul say this "something" will be given?

Now enough of the dancing. Just answer these two questions, please.

Don't answer something else, don't tell me that these questions are not valid questions - they are clear, correctly posed questions in relation to a simple set of sentences from Romans 2.

Now, please, take responsibility for proper debate and answer these 2 questions.

 

[Drew]

Re: Romans 7

The simple way to prove this is to simply ask yourself these questions..

Is there anything good in your flesh ?

You are, again, simply not engaging the relevant arguments. My argument is what it is, and you need to engage it.

But I will answer this question even though it only poses as a response to an argument that you simply have not engaged.

As of my re-birth, I am a new creation, so, yes, there is indeed "good" in my flesh - the indwelling Holy Sprirt, transforming me.

Does your flesh serve the law of sin..?

No it does not! You are mixing up the fact that Christians sin to the state of the person in Romans 7 - who is literally enslaved to sin.

And this is not me speaking, it is Paul. Note what Paul says about the person who is a Christian:

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death.