Original sin

[Grazer]

Since becoming a Christian, I've been taught that sin came into this world as a result of Adam and Eves actions in the Garden of Eden. This appears to come from Pauls letter to the Romans;

Romans 5:12-14 NIV

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

But I'm confused as to where Paul got this idea from because there is nothing in Genesis that says their actions would impact/be passed down to generations throughout human history.

Genesis 3:16-19 NIV

To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat from it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are and to dust you will return."

Paul, as far as I can tell, saw Adam as a literal historical figure. If that is the case then I can't see how Paul can conclude, from the Genesis text, that sin entered into this world through Adam and its because of this we cant do good. It only works if Adam and Eve are representative of the entire human race but Paul doesn't see them that way. Even then, there is still no where in the text where God says their actions will have everlasting repercussions.

Now Paul may very well be correct in what he's saying regarding Adam, I just can't see how he got there from the Genesis text.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Grazer,

This is what Paul is talking about.

Genesis 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Genesis 3:4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Look back to Genesis 3:6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

Unless Jesus comes, I'm pretty sure that both you and I will die... But there will be a day when Death and Hell are thrown into the lake of fire... And death will be no more.

1 Corinthians 15:55 “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[jasoncran]

:Djeff ,ramban agrees ,.oddly both jews and some messianic dont believe in the idea of original sin. yet the earlier jews did and the sages.

 

[stovebolts]

:Djeff ,ramban agrees ,.oddly both jews and some messianic dont believe in the idea of original sin. yet the earlier jews did and the sages.

Really? You'll have to post commentary since you've got my books! Hey, about time you got your own anyway :waving

 

[jasoncran]

only a snippet as he mentions that adam and eve also did have sex over the fact they ate from the tree. i disagree but heres the gist

The proper interpretation appears to me to be that mans original nature was such that he did whatever was proper for him to do naturally,just as the heavens and all their hosts do,."faithfull workers whose work is truth, and dont change from their prescribed course," and in whose deeds there is no love or hatred. Now it was the fruit of this tree that gave rise to will and desire, that those who ate it should choose a thing or its opposite, for good or for evil. This is why it was called 'etz hada'ath(the tree of the knowledge)of good or evil, for da'ath in our language is used to express will. Thus in the language of the rabbis:"They have taught this with regards to one sheda'ato(whose will) is to return" and "his will is clear"..

pg 72 of ranmban's beersherit or genesis for you gentiles

while he doesnt say original sin its implied as if you know the story as we do its there and jews then did believe that they were sinful because of adam and Ramban doesnt say it later in this book on if adam didnt eat the fruit he wouldnt have died.

 

[Bfnaught]

But I'm confused as to where Paul got this idea from because there is nothing in Genesis that says their actions would impact/be passed down to generations throughout human history.

Paul's letters are inspired by the Holy Spirit. If he were here in the flesh he might not be able to explain where he got the idea. God was working through him.

 

[stovebolts]

Paul's letters are inspired by the Holy Spirit. If he were here in the flesh he might not be able to explain where he got the idea. God was working through him.

Hi Bfnaught,

Yes, Paul's letters were inspired by the Holy Spirit, as was all of Scripture.

2 Peter 1:20-21 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

So we see that ALL of scripture was written by Holy men inspired by the Holy Ghost.

As such, I'm very certain that Paul could direct us directly to the passage he is referring to. Not only that, but we should be able to search out scripture and understand which portion of Scripture Paul is commenting on as well.

 

[Webb]

Ezekiel 18, the entire chapter is a thorough repudiation of the doctrine of "original sin", it even takes one through 3 generations of a man to refute the theory. And, thats all the doctrine is, theory. We die physically because of Adam's sin ( I Cor.15) but not spiritually. The fact that "death passed to all men" (Rom.5:12) is related to the casual fact given by Paul---"for that ALL sinned", every man dies spiritually, when, like Adam, he sins. "All men sinned" is active voice which denotes they brought death (spiritual death) upon themselves by their sin, and did not inherit PASSIVELY spiritual death from Adam.

There are many passages showing the fallacy of the "original sin" doctrine. Heb.12:9, for example teaches that God is the "father" of our spirits. Surely, God does not father an unclean, sinning spirit.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Webb,

I don't think Grazer is talking about "Original Sin" as you and I understand it. For instance, I believe in the age of accountability which denies Augustine's doctrine of "Original sin".

As it pertains to the OP, I am viewing Grazers terminology as "Adam sinned, and as a result, death entered into the world".

I can only think of 2 people in the Bible who didn't die and from what I've seen, everybody dies. It's kinda like paying taxes... Why? Because sin entered the world, thus.. original sin.

I"m pretty sure that's what Grazer is thinking... at least that's how I responded.

 

[jasoncran]

the only problem i have with the age of accountability. is that the bible says we were born alienated from god.

minor but another topic.im not dogmatic on it, but my pastor was saved at age 3.

 

[rrowell]

the only problem i have with the age of accountability. is that the bible says we were born alienated from god.

minor but another topic.im not dogmatic on it, but my pastor was saved at age 3.

How can one be alienated from his creator?

 

[jasoncran]

How can one be alienated from his creator?

simple sin. does God allow sin into his kingdom? No it has to be forgiven or overlooked.

without christ, do we really want god? most of these unbelievers dont want god they want an excuse not to serve god by finding fault with the bible.

i didnt want God, its not within in man's nature to want God but sin. that is what i mean we are alienated from God. the word be estranged. we are either his or his enemy. theres no middle ground with him. Jesus.love him or hate him.

 

[Webb]

Hello Jason

You wrote: "--the Bible says we were born alienated from God." I hear theologians say that, but, where does the Bible say it?

 

[jasoncran]

Hello Jason

You wrote: "--the Bible says we were born alienated from God." I hear theologians say that, but, where does the Bible say it?

do believe that by default and NO repentance that you can ever get right with god?

why is that you have to teach children to do good, not sin?
colossionians 1

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now has he reconciled

so when that three yr lies to you is that not a sin? he may know it but he does have to repent over it.if we can at any age freely choose not to sin do show me.

 

[Webb]

Hi Jason--But Col.1:21 does not identify the time such alienation occured. What you need is a passage it occured at or prior to birh. Heb. 12: 9 teaches that God is the father of our spirits. Question: Does God father alienated spirits?

 

[Cassian]

Ezekiel 18, the entire chapter is a thorough repudiation of the doctrine of "original sin", it even takes one through 3 generations of a man to refute the theory. And, thats all the doctrine is, theory. We die physically because of Adam's sin ( I Cor.15) but not spiritually. The fact that "death passed to all men" (Rom.5:12) is related to the casual fact given by Paul---"for that ALL sinned", every man dies spiritually, when, like Adam, he sins. "All men sinned" is active voice which denotes they brought death (spiritual death) upon themselves by their sin, and did not inherit PASSIVELY spiritual death from Adam.

There are many passages showing the fallacy of the "original sin" doctrine. Heb.12:9, for example teaches that God is the "father" of our spirits. Surely, God does not father an unclean, sinning spirit.

The western understanding and the use of the term, Original Sin, is derived from Augustines teachings in his debate with Pelagius. It is a misunderstanding by Augustine who gets some of his Gnostic background from the Manichean faith He had before his conversion. From this a lot of other doctrines as developed both by the RCC which eventually adopted Augustines view of Original Sin at the Council of Trent, almost 1000 years later. The reformers actually adopted it before the Rcc did because of their connection as Augustinians, both Luther and Calvin.

However, it is death that becomes the primary problem of mankind. God states to Adam that if He eats of the tree he will surely die. That actually becomes two kinds of death. Sin is a spiritual death, or relational separation from God. We do classify, as does scripture, this is a form of death, separation to two elements, in this case God from man. This is also the description of hell, which is the second death, or spiritual death.

But God in Gen 3:19 tells us what kind of death Adam would suffer. He would return to dust. Man was not created to die. Man was created to be eternal. We also know from scripture that death is the power of satan Heb 2:14.. It was this death that Christ defeated by His Incarnation, death and resurrection.

This then leads to Rom 5:12 with the solution given in Rom 5:18. Life, physical (eternal existance) is the great gift of mercy that God would bestow on all men. The mercy Paul mentions in Rom 11:32 again. It is also the life given in I Cor 15:22. The preface to that equation is verses 13-20. There is a sequence of John 6:39-40 as well. Vs 39 is the resurrection of all men, Christ saving all men, actually all things given to Him from Col 1:20 and II Cor 5:18-19 and Rom 3:24.

Again, I Cor 15:45 gives us the sequence of Christ in overcoming death which is the opposite of how it occured through Adam. Then vs 53 by Christ resurrection all men will be raised to immortality and incorruptibility. Back to the original purpose of man being created.

Consequently it is our mortal nature that we inherit from Adam. By dying, losing life, eternal existance, we also lose any purpose for God to have any kind of relationship with man, since he will simply be dissolved by death, dust to dust.

What bearing has Original Sin on the rest of scripture?

Immediately one would have a problem with the Incarnation of Christ. If man actually has a sin nature, and born a sinner, then Christ cannot be born as a human being as scripture states. Heb 2:12 explains that Christ became man, He became like unto us in all respects, except did not sin. In other words He assumed our fallen, mortal nature, so that by His death and resurrection He can restore life to that dead mortal being. Which is why scripture teaches that all men will be raised in the last day. Christians have always believed in the resurrection of the dead. It is also why scripture says Christ is the Savior of the world, John 4:42, I John 4:14.

Consequently you have many who will deny the salvfic content of the Incarnation because obviously, Christ could not possibly assume a sin nature which must of necessity come from man.

For the RCC, even at their late date of adoption of Original Sin, soon realized a serious problem with it regarding the Incarnation. Instead of rejecting Original Sin, they developed the doctrine of the Immacculate Conception of Mary to eliminate the sin nature in Mary, so that Christ could be born of a human.

For all protestants, who also deny the Immaculate Conception theory simply have a theology of salvation that is based solely on the spiritual, or ones relationship with God and bypass the entire teaching of scripture regarding the fall of man, and man's salvation from that fall. This leads to the confusion over faith and works, over what constitutes salvation, the Gift of salvation that scripture speaks about.

 

[Webb]

Yes, one false notion (theory, doctrine) almost always does require another doctrine (equally false) to bolster the original false doctrine. And on and on it has gone.

 

[jasoncran]

:o so man can choose to sin? he has a choice not to sin as a boy? he does have the power without the cross to not lie?

nevermind those child killers at young ages under 12. i guess they were innocent and sinless.

 

[jasoncran]

Hi Jason--But Col.1:21 does not identify the time such alienation occured. What you need is a passage it occured at or prior to birh. Heb. 12: 9 teaches that God is the father of our spirits. Question: Does God father alienated spirits?

what does the word children of wrath mean?

so where does that put the idea of the cross if our spirits are never alienated?

12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

lower s. i mean if the soul is perfect what happened to it? to cause death and seperation?

will judas be in heaven? apperently in christ one needs to repent. if the soul is perfect and cant sin then what we have that power without the blood to avoid sin?

i have a ton of leo friends the evil that children do no longer suprise me.

ted bundy at age 9 killed animals for fun. yet what did he become?

 

[Butch5]

Since becoming a Christian, I've been taught that sin came into this world as a result of Adam and Eves actions in the Garden of Eden. This appears to come from Pauls letter to the Romans;

Romans 5:12-14 NIV

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned— To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

But I'm confused as to where Paul got this idea from because there is nothing in Genesis that says their actions would impact/be passed down to generations throughout human history.

Genesis 3:16-19 NIV

To the woman he said,
"I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat from it,'
"Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are and to dust you will return."

Paul, as far as I can tell, saw Adam as a literal historical figure. If that is the case then I can't see how Paul can conclude, from the Genesis text, that sin entered into this world through Adam and its because of this we cant do good. It only works if Adam and Eve are representative of the entire human race but Paul doesn't see them that way. Even then, there is still no where in the text where God says their actions will have everlasting repercussions.

Now Paul may very well be correct in what he's saying regarding Adam, I just can't see how he got there from the Genesis text.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

Hi Grazer,

The doctrine of "Original Sin" didn't enter the Church until the 5th century. Paul said death entered the world through Adam. Adam and Eve's sin got them kicked out of the garden and they lost access to the Tree of Life, thus death came upon them.