OSAS is biblical truth.

[jasoncran]

im not an eternal security type. let us refrain from sterotypes. im not a legalist. I know what that is like. I was raised a Jehovah's witness.

I always thought you came from a Jewish back ground.

Praise God He delivered you from JW.

Amen.


JLB

in short, my dad wasn't a faithful jew and has forgotten most of his Hebrew teachings. he did at times speak of that stuff. he still does. it wasn't until my grandma's death that I really went into what Judaism is and what they had . long story short.it also helped that at times the other cranmans on fb talk about their faith and I get to listen in. that is also how I go to learn about the chuppa and the wedding feasts as I had to study it. I also was lead to this by the lord.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Revelation 3:1-6 (NIV2011)

[...]

3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. "

But OSAS says, that I can forget, not hold it fast, and be unrepentant, and then not be surprised like a thief breaking in at night.

5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.

But OSAS says I don't have to be victorious to stay in the book of life and to have Christ acknowledge my name before the Father and his angels.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You haven't been listening. This isn't about growing up into Christ with all it's troubles and tribulations all the while trusting in his blood. This is about walking away from the forgiveness of God. I, personally, have never done that. But apparently one can do that because the Bible warns the churches to not do that.

WHERE IS THIS WARNING THAT DOES NOT RELATE TO TURNING BACK TO THE LAW? that's THE TURNING AWAY FROM THE FORGIVNESS OF GOD, IS SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT TRUSTING AND WALKING IN HIS GRACE.

Explain this difference between trusting in the law instead of Christ, and trusting in nothing instead of Christ?

The end is the same--you forfeit the grace of salvation.

But here is where we see a believer turning away but who did not turn back to law...

"The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away." (Matthew 13:20-21 NASB)

"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

This also bolsters what I've been saying about faith, and OSAS.

It isn't that the faith that fails in the OSAS argument was never able to save to begin with. It was not able to persevere...that is why it is not able to save.

What is "rocky" ground? But that which is made hard by the hypocricy of supposed law-keeping.
The issue with turning away from faith IS ALWAYS THE LAW. "FOR THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH"

Show me this in the Bible, that falling away is ALWAYS because that person turned to trust in Mosaic law keeping for justification.

I doubly assure you that the person I helped come to Christ, but who later fell away, didn't fall because she became a law keeper. I wish that's what her problem had been. We could have worked through that. The problem was her faith could not persevere in the face of her desires and temptations to indulge the things of the world (she committed adultery with her boss, went back to the party life, and divorced her husband).

The surety of God's salvation is secured through the faith that endures, not the faith that fails and can not persevere through the trials and temptations of this life.

But anyway, as I say, for the sake of this thread, the point remains that what you believe about law/grace defends non-OSAS. I've pointed out the very same argument from scripture that you have, that the Galatians and Hebrew churches were in danger of forfeiting the very real grace they had. So kudos to you for that.

 

[George Muller]

Explain this difference between trusting in the law instead of Christ, and trusting in nothing instead of Christ?

The end is the same--you forfeit the grace of salvation.

But here is where we see a believer turning away but who did not turn back to law...

"The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away." (Matthew 13:20-21 NASB)

"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

This also bolsters what I've been saying about faith, and OSAS.

It isn't that the faith that fails in the OSAS argument was never able to save to begin with. It was not able to persevere...that is why it is not able to save.

What is "rocky" ground? But that which is made hard by the hypocricy of supposed law-keeping.
The issue with turning away from faith IS ALWAYS THE LAW. "FOR THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH"

Show me this in the Bible, that falling away is ALWAYS because that person turned to trust in Mosaic law keeping for justification.

I doubly assure you that the person I helped come to Christ, but who later fell away, didn't fall because she became a law keeper. I wish that's what her problem had been. We could have worked through that. The problem was her faith could not persevere in the face of her desires and temptations to indulge the things of the world (she committed adultery with her boss, went back to the party life, and divorced her husband).

The surety of God's salvation is secured through the faith that endures, not the faith that fails and can not persevere through the trials and temptations of this life.

But anyway, as I say, for the sake of this thread, the point remains that what you believe about law/grace defends non-OSAS. I've pointed out the very same argument from scripture that you have, that the Galatians and Hebrew churches were in danger of forfeiting the very real grace they had. So kudos to you for that.

Most likely this person was very much put under law, and that is the very thing that caused this person to turn from the trust they had in the grace of Christ. Many are made to stumble by those who lay the yoke of law upon the convert. Of course they will lose heart for they are most likely convinced that they cannot serve the Lord, by such false teaching. They are in effect "too honest" to play the religious game of hypocricy of those who claim to keep the law. It would be better for some to never attempt to teach, than to teach the law to others and especially a young believer who is made to stumble in faith, because some hypocrite lays the yoke of the law upon them. This is the Lords warning to those who cause "these little ones who believe In Me" are made to stumble by this false teaching. It would be better that milestone was hung around many hypocrites neck, than to lay the yoke of the law upon a young believer.

 

[George Muller]

Revelation 3:1-6 (NIV2011)
1 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.
2 Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God.
3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.
4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.
5 The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels.
6 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

How can someones name be blotted out if it was never there in the first place?

Its clear in the epistles, that those who turn from grace back to the works of the flesh (law) are "fallen from grace" "cut-off from Christ" These are those who have forsaken the "way of righteousness" and like a dog to its vomit and a sow to its wallow, they have rejected the "Spirit of grace" and are in "willing sin" For the law is not of faith, and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[jasoncran]

oh sheesh, so when I feel into my bisexual nature after my first time repented and changing, if you knew me then being a Christian would be the last thing you would tell me I was or would become.it was cause of some legalist? NOT I wanted that sin and the pastor and none in the church even knew! only a muslim friend and his mother and others that knew me and the man I loved. the mother of the muslim is the reason I repented she confronted me. yet I guess I didn't really repent. we all have sin weakness. I had that then and if I don't stay in Christ I could go back to that. otherwise by that argument no true Christian could ever be delivered from alcohol,drugs and sins and then go back to them as they were NOT really delivered the first time!

 

[reba]

I am trying to understand something So this question is to those who hold fast to what has been called here OSAS...

Extreme example..

I am bad guy murder.. Evil type guy abusing kids just every thing we can think of that is unChristlike...
I am in jail the Baptist preacher shows up .... Yup I answer the alter call...Get out of jail.... Walk the walk for lets say 2 years... then I slip back into the life style start killing and all kinds of ugly stuff.... let say I do this for 7 years then the cops shoot me dead . Did I die saved?

If your answer is "I was never saved no need to post it..."

 

[George Muller]

I am trying to understand something So this question is to those who hold fast to what has been called here OSAS...

Extreme example..

I am bad guy murder.. Evil type guy abusing kids just every thing we can think of that is unChristlike...
I am in jail the Baptist preacher shows up .... Yup I answer the alter call...Get out of jail.... Walk the walk for lets say 2 years... then I slip back into the life style start killing and all kinds of ugly stuff.... let say I do this for 7 years then the cops shoot me dead . Did I die saved?

If your answer is "I was never saved no need to post it..."

Well, you premise the question and reject the possible answer. Did God save David? so it is possible to murder etc... and yet be saved. If this man received the truth of Christ and the Spirit of Christ, not some false gospel full of works of the law. Then God would punish and correct these things. Even bring him to death before He would allow a true Christian to continue in such things. God is God, He is not mocked, nor is He weak to discipline those who are His Children. I know and believe He would take my life before He would allow me to follow the flesh into such things.

 

[reba]

That is not a direct answer to a very simple direct question.... This is a topic I have bounced back and forth for a number of years.... and the more I read the views of OSAS they more I lean the other way... We all know we can list scriptures in a way to show this side or that..

 

[jasoncran]

That is not a direct answer to a very simple direct question.... This is a topic I have bounced back and forth for a number of years.... and the more I read the views of OSAS they more I lean the other way... We all know we can list scriptures in a way to show this side or that..

I remember when I was into that bisexual sin. I knew it was sin and that god hated it. yet I wanted it the more I was with him the easier it got. given time and no warning I would have stayed with him and deceived myself.

 

[George Muller]

That is not a direct answer to a very simple direct question.... This is a topic I have bounced back and forth for a number of years.... and the more I read the views of OSAS they more I lean the other way... We all know we can list scriptures in a way to show this side or that..

No you do not ask a simple question, you make up a false premise and then limit the answer to your predetermined conclusion. I have given you the answer and you reject it, and this person has never nor can he be a "Christian" walking in the grace of God. But what we do see is those who promote the law, kill and murder others in the name of God.

 

[Brother Mike]

I am bad guy murder.. Evil type guy abusing kids just every thing we can think of that is unChristlike...
I am in jail the Baptist preacher shows up .... Yup I answer the alter call...Get out of jail

That is one heck of a lawyer.

Saved, is saved, is saved, is saved though. Is Jesus Lord? This question can't be answered Reba because while your murdering kids and causing mayhem, what is the light that God has personally given you.

One thing that really made an impression on me was the saved women that went to church and murdered her two boys, beating their head in with a rock for God. How the heck can you be saved, read the bible and think that would be OK? It just don't make sense. She was given life, but God turns it around for her and gets her out of jail. Asking the Lord about this, the Lord said, "I had given mercy based on what she knew, and have saved her."

How in the World can you not know as a Christian that killing your own children is wrong? How is that possible? I guess only God would know.

Then we have the man that slept with his Mother/ Step mother and Paul turns him over to Satan to kill him and hope to save at least his spirit. This man did know some things. That tells me the OSAS is nonsense because Paul had to take drastic actions to squeak this guy into Heaven. Paul said that his spirit "MIGHT" be saved.

So, your guy, who would know. According to the Word however, it's very clear that if you do not live your Life as Jesus being Lord, then you don't get a free ride.

Mike.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Most likely this person was very much put under law, and that is the very thing that caused this person to turn from the trust they had in the grace of Christ.

Nope. I was there, I know.

She had deeply unsatisfied longings for the ways of the world. They won out. It had NOTHING to do with trying to relate to God through law. NOTHING. And it certainly had nothing to do with now trying to be justified by works of the law. Like I say, we could have worked through that.

I know another woman who said she was taking a break from Christianity for a while. Not because she decided the law was the way to be justified, but because she didn't agree with what faith in God requires in a certain area of Christian life.

Many are made to stumble by those who lay the yoke of law upon the convert. Of course they will lose heart for they are most likely convinced that they cannot serve the Lord, by such false teaching. They are in effect "too honest" to play the religious game of hypocricy of those who claim to keep the law. It would be better for some to never attempt to teach, than to teach the law to others and especially a young believer who is made to stumble in faith, because some hypocrite lays the yoke of the law upon them. This is the Lords warning to those who cause "these little ones who believe In Me" are made to stumble by this false teaching. It would be better that milestone was hung around many hypocrites neck, than to lay the yoke of the law upon a young believer.

Law keeping is hardly an issue in the church today. Outside of a handful of law keeping sects, 'law' is the four letter word in the church today. People leave the faith because they love the world, not because the church was trying to get them to submit to the law--the law the church teaches has passed away and is no longer required to be obeyed. You know this.


The Galatian and Hebrew churches show us OSAS is not true, not because of what they were turning away from Christ to (the law), but the simple fact that they were abandoning that which they started out in--faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[reba]

Is the guy in my extreme example a worse sinner then me before the Lord?

 

[George Muller]

I am bad guy murder.. Evil type guy abusing kids just every thing we can think of that is unChristlike...
I am in jail the Baptist preacher shows up .... Yup I answer the alter call...Get out of jail

That is one heck of a lawyer.

Saved, is saved, is saved, is saved though. Is Jesus Lord? This question can't be answered Reba because while your murdering kids and causing mayhem, what is the light that God has personally given you.

One thing that really made an impression on me was the saved women that went to church and murdered her two boys, beating their head in with a rock for God. How the heck can you be saved, read the bible and think that would be OK? It just don't make sense. She was given life, but God turns it around for her and gets her out of jail. Asking the Lord about this, the Lord said, "I had given mercy based on what she knew, and have saved her."

How in the World can you not know as a Christian that killing your own children is wrong? How is that possible? I guess only God would know.

Then we have the man that slept with his Mother/ Step mother and Paul turns him over to Satan to kill him and hope to save at least his spirit. This man did know some things. That tells me the OSAS is nonsense because Paul had to take drastic actions to squeak this guy into Heaven. Paul said that his spirit "MIGHT" be saved.

So, your guy, who would know. According to the Word however, it's very clear that if you do not live your Life as Jesus being Lord, then you don't get a free ride.

Mike.

Do you know what the word "might" means in the Greek, brother Mike? It is the same root of "dunamis" which is "power" Paul was not saying "might" as in maybe, but that this mans spirit would be saved. So in effect you see Gods Mercy toward this woman, but you look upon the scriptures as if this is another Christ? No the same Christ saved her and him, because that is who He is and that is what He does.

 

[JLB]

Explain this difference between trusting in the law instead of Christ, and trusting in nothing instead of Christ?

The end is the same--you forfeit the grace of salvation.

But here is where we see a believer turning away but who did not turn back to law...

"The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away." (Matthew 13:20-21 NASB)

"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away." (Luke 8:13 NASB)

This also bolsters what I've been saying about faith, and OSAS.

It isn't that the faith that fails in the OSAS argument was never able to save to begin with. It was not able to persevere...that is why it is not able to save.

What is "rocky" ground? But that which is made hard by the hypocricy of supposed law-keeping.
The issue with turning away from faith IS ALWAYS THE LAW. "FOR THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH"

Show me this in the Bible, that falling away is ALWAYS because that person turned to trust in Mosaic law keeping for justification.

I doubly assure you that the person I helped come to Christ, but who later fell away, didn't fall because she became a law keeper. I wish that's what her problem had been. We could have worked through that. The problem was her faith could not persevere in the face of her desires and temptations to indulge the things of the world (she committed adultery with her boss, went back to the party life, and divorced her husband).

The surety of God's salvation is secured through the faith that endures, not the faith that fails and can not persevere through the trials and temptations of this life.

But anyway, as I say, for the sake of this thread, the point remains that what you believe about law/grace defends non-OSAS. I've pointed out the very same argument from scripture that you have, that the Galatians and Hebrew churches were in danger of forfeiting the very real grace they had. So kudos to you for that.

Most likely this person was very much put under law, and that is the very thing that caused this person to turn from the trust they had in the grace of Christ. Many are made to stumble by those who lay the yoke of law upon the convert. Of course they will lose heart for they are most likely convinced that they cannot serve the Lord, by such false teaching. They are in effect "too honest" to play the religious game of hypocricy of those who claim to keep the law. It would be better for some to never attempt to teach, than to teach the law to others and especially a young believer who is made to stumble in faith, because some hypocrite lays the yoke of the law upon them. This is the Lords warning to those who cause "these little ones who believe In Me" are made to stumble by this false teaching. It would be better that milestone was hung around many hypocrites neck, than to lay the yoke of the law upon a young believer.

The religion that is not being spoken of here in your discussion is Judaism.

It doesn't matter if a person turns from Christ to Judaism, Hinduism, Satanism, Islam, Budaism...

The choice is all the same.

If you turn from Christ, then you are turning to Satan.

There is only One Way to the Father and That is through the Son, Jesus Christ, for there is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved.

There is only one choice for salvation. Jesus

There is only one choice for damnation. Satan

So, enough with trying to strain the gnat, and leaving the proverbial camel.

When you turn away from Christ, you turn to Satan, no matter what religion you call it.


JLB

 

[George Muller]

Most likely this person was very much put under law, and that is the very thing that caused this person to turn from the trust they had in the grace of Christ.

Nope. I was there, I know.

She had deeply unsatisfied longings for the ways of the world. They won out. It had NOTHING to do with trying to relate to God through law. NOTHING. And it certainly had nothing to do with now trying to be justified by works of the law. Like I say, we could have worked through that.

I know another woman who said she was taking a break from Christianity for a while. Not because she decided the law was the way to be justified, but because she didn't agree with what faith in God requires in a certain area of Christian life.

Many are made to stumble by those who lay the yoke of law upon the convert. Of course they will lose heart for they are most likely convinced that they cannot serve the Lord, by such false teaching. They are in effect "too honest" to play the religious game of hypocricy of those who claim to keep the law. It would be better for some to never attempt to teach, than to teach the law to others and especially a young believer who is made to stumble in faith, because some hypocrite lays the yoke of the law upon them. This is the Lords warning to those who cause "these little ones who believe In Me" are made to stumble by this false teaching. It would be better that milestone was hung around many hypocrites neck, than to lay the yoke of the law upon a young believer.

Law keeping is hardly an issue in the church today. Outside of a handful of law keeping sects, 'law' is the four letter word in the church today. People leave the faith because they love the world, not because the church was trying to get them to submit to the law--the law the church teaches has passed away and is no longer required to be obeyed. You know this.


The Galatian and Hebrew churches show us OSAS is not true, not because of what they were turning away from Christ to (the law), but the simple fact that they were abandoning that which they started out in--faith in Jesus Christ.

Well, forgive me if I do not accept your judgment of this person. I have seen the destruction of legalism on the faith of many who would have walked with God, if they had not been subject to those "legalist" that destroyed their faith. And the law and legalism is THE ISSUE of the Church, it has been from the beginning and will be unto the end. The law is not of faith, and destroys faith, it causes and produces sinful desires, it is the strength of sin. And legalism is the ONLY BIBLICAL reason one can fall from grace and be cut off from Christ. To attempt to say its not an issue is to deny the Word of God.

 

[reba]

This reads to me as if the OSAS folks believe they have knowledge of who is saved and who is not saved....... By what standard is that judgment reached?

 

[George Muller]

The religion that is not being spoken of here in your discussion is Judaism.

The law is the issue, not "Judasim" And legalism destroys all mens faith (Jew or Gentile). The law is the strength of sin to all men who look to the law. Any Christian that seeks to be justified by the law, has fallen from grace and is cutoff from Christ.

 

[George Muller]

This reads to me as if the OSAS folks believe they have knowledge of who is saved and who is not saved....... By what standard is that judgment reached?

Not sure where that claim was made? Could you post that statement, or be more clear as to why you would make such a charge?