Perfect Tense for "saved" proves eternal security

[GodsGrace]

What sinner in their "right mind" tries to TAKE salvation away from any believer???

What sinner CAN take anyone's salvation away?
????

 

[chessman]

No bible.

www.biblegateway.com

Feel better.
God is very, very faithful.

 

[smaller]

What sinner CAN take anyone's salvation away?
????

You're right. They can't. That's why I reject such "co" savior postures. None of us were our own savior to start with and that doesn't change after belief.

 

[GodsGrace]

www.biblegateway.com

Feel better.
God is very, very faithful.

I'm on a tablet I just got. Can't work it too well yet.
But I would have been sooo bored today without it.
Thanks Chessman.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

You're right. They can't. That's why I reject such "co" savior postures. None of us were our own savior to start with and that doesn't change after belief.

Ah. I see what you mean.
I agree with that too!
See Smaller I always told you we agree on a lot.

 

[FreeGrace]

I know a modern day theologian that teaches koine Greek and he tells me this whole thread is irrelevant.

That's nice.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"I believe that much of the NT hasn't been properly divided, as 2 Tim 2:15 says."

It has. It's just that we don't care to accept some of it

Well, this certainly hits the nail on the head. "it's just that we don't care to accept some of it".

or, we like modern day versions of doctrine better than what the original church taught, which church was closer to the time of Jesus, as you know.

The "modern day versions" are unrelated to what the original authors wrote and taught.

btw, there is no such thing as "the original church". False doctrine crept in rapidly, even as the authors of Scripture noted.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's nice.

Maybe it's not nice but it's the truth.

I know about how Greek helps us to understand some concepts. I used to teach religion and the bible to both young children, pre teens and adults. For instance, it's important to know what the word " believe"
Means in Greek, but we get carried away when we start explaining weird meanings for " fallen away" for instance. Fallen away means fallen away.

Wondering

 

[FreeGrace]

First of all the quotation marks make sense the way you explain it. The
NASB agrees with you.

As to the rest I also agree. These are works, which some today treat as unspeakable traits.

So, if we Are to do these good works, what if we don't??

God will call you a hypocrite. And all the warning passages, which are related to earning reward or not, will directly apply to you.

( I'm not saying works save us - they follow salvation. And if I refuse? )

Several things.
1. loss of blessings in this life and loss of reward in eternity. (think loss of the privilege of reigning with Christ per 2 Tim 2:12).
2. God's divine discipline. (think of a spanking, which can be quite severe. Just meditate on David's description of his own discipline in Psa 38 and 32:3-4.

 

[GodsGrace]

I said this:
"I believe that much of the NT hasn't been properly divided, as 2 Tim 2:15 says."

Well, this certainly hits the nail on the head. "it's just that we don't care to accept some of it".


The "modern day versions" are unrelated to what the original authors wrote and taught.

btw, there is no such thing as "the original church". False doctrine crept in rapidly, even as the authors of Scripture noted.

Did you ever look up the Didache. Do you care what John the Apostle taught?
There was no original church?
How did we get here?
When did it start?

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

God will call you a hypocrite. And all the warning passages, which are related to earning reward or not, will directly apply to you.


Several things.
1. loss of blessings in this life and loss of reward in eternity. (think loss of the privilege of reigning with Christ per 2 Tim 2:12).
2. God's divine discipline. (think of a spanking, which can be quite severe. Just meditate on David's description of his own discipline in Psa 38 and 32:3-4.

You don't need to help me understand scripture, but I thank you for your thoughtfulness.

BTW
I'm not worried about what God will think of me because He won't be seeing me but His son.

 

[FreeGrace]

That doesn't seem very loving of you to leave me stumbling around in the dark when I've presented scripture in direct response to your request for scripture supporting what I had said.

This is what I said:
"Those who misunderstand Scripture and think that the "prize" is salvation are not approved workmen, nor do they rightly divide the word of truth, per 2 Tim 2:15.
As such, I see no point in further discussion of the other verses posted."

Unless you didn't mean to suggest that salvation is a prize, then my statement stands on 2 Tim 2:15.

(Just for the record, the prize would be 'glorification' since the prize is earned at the completion of the race of faith which 'salvation' marks the beginning of and not the end of.

Salvation isn't a prize in ANY SENSE of the word.

Hence the potential applicability of the verse to the topic in the OP ... which is not OBTAINING salvation, but the possibility of LOOSING it during the sanctification process.)

God Bless,
Arthur

Please provide any verse that teaches loss of salvation during the sanctification process.

 

[FreeGrace]

Unbelief is the unpardonable sin.

The Bible is very clear about the unpardonable sin. Matt 12:31-32 tells us what it is.

We will be forgiven every sin, but not that one.

"We" aren't even able to commit that particular sin. Check out the reference.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible is very clear about the unpardonable sin. Matt 12:31-32 tells us what it is.


"We" aren't even able to commit that particular sin. Check out the reference.

Come on FreeGrace.
Give us some credit.
" We". = the human race, NOT the saved.
Really !!

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible is very clear about the unpardonable sin. Matt 12:31-32 tells us what it is.


"We" aren't even able to commit that particular sin. Check out the reference.

" check out the reference"
You're funny.
I think I'm cute
But that doesn't make me dumb.

Yeah vain and proud too.
Goin' straight to...

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Now, prove that ceasing to believe (falling away) equates to ceasing to be saved."

1 Corinthians 5:13
9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[fn] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

How does this prove that falling away equates to ceasing to be saved?

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”

[NIV Footnote: Deut. 13:5; 17:7; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21,24; 24:7]

How does these verses prove it?

Deu 13:5 NIV - 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

How does this prove it?

Deu 17:7 NIV - 7 The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting that person to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.

How does this verse prove it?

Deu 19:19 NIV - 19 then do to the false witness as that witness intended to do to the other party. You must purge the evil from among you.

How does this prove it?

Deu 21:21 NIV - 21 Then all the men of his town are to stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.

How does this prove it?

Deu 22:21 NIV - 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

How does this verse prove it?

Deu 22:24 NIV - 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

And how does this verse prove it?

Deu 24:7 NIV - 7 If someone is caught kidnapping a fellow Israelite and treating or selling them as a slave, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you.

How does this prove it?

'Falling Away' = expulsion = "God will judge those outside" [the Church] followed by a quote from Deuteronomy that references purging evil and results in DEATH!

Why assume "death" in Deut refers to eternal death? The obvious meaning in the OT was physical death.

Do we have to prove that ceasing to be saved = death or is that self-evident?

Yes, that needs to be proven. And discernment is required to understand which kind of death is being referred to.

Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is a gift of God.
Rom 11:29 says that God's gifts are irrevocable.
Why don't you believe that eternal life is irrevocable??

 

[FreeGrace]

Believe. = you will be saved.
Do not believe. = you will not be saved.

What your statement misses are those who HAVE believed and then cease, as Jesus noted in Luke 8:13.

So, please provide any verse that describes or calls a "former believer" as an unbeliever.

The Bible uses the specific term apostate.

 

[GodsGrace]

Leave atpollard alone. He's new and he's right.
We'll go through this tomorrow but don't think I have all this time every day...
I'll bet you're so sorry I don't...

 

[GodsGrace]

What your statement misses are those who HAVE believed and then cease, as Jesus noted in Luke 8:13.

So, please provide any verse that describes or calls a "former believer" as an unbeliever.

The Bible uses the specific term apostate.

If you cease to believe it means you don't believe anymore.
Same condition as those who never believed.
Tomorrow

 

[FreeGrace]

Maybe it's not nice but it's the truth.

I know about how Greek helps us to understand some concepts. I used to teach religion and the bible to both young children, pre teens and adults. For instance, it's important to know what the word " believe"
Means in Greek, but we get carried away when we start explaining weird meanings for " fallen away" for instance.

The meaning is clear from Luke 8:13 - Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. NIV

The phrases in red relate to each other. To "fall away" in Luke 8:13 is to cease to believe after a while. Very simple.

Jesus said nothing about being saved in v.13.

Fallen away means fallen away.
Wondering

The statement can be taken in any number of ways, so is just a silly statement. There are NO verses that equate falling away with loss of salvation. One can only assume that in Luke 8:13.

Again, to "fall away" in Luke 8:13 is to fall away from the faith, or to cease to believe.

It's just a huge leap to equate ceasing to believe with ceasing to be saved. There is no evidence from Scripture to support that notion.