Poll re. good tattoo artist career for a Christian woman - Part 2

[Deborah13]

PS: @Deborah13 : I think you'll agree, particularly with regard to your lifetime and family experience, that nothing remains static from a customary or fashion perspective.

You do make me grin. You know my mom taught me fashion sense. I was a tomboy and still am. Give me jeans, tennis shoes or boots and I'm as happy as peach pie, but.....my mom taught me that when a woman buys clothes, stick to the classic styles and you will never go wrong and they will always be in style. I worked in offices for many years and I always followed her advise. Fads come and go. I really believe this whole tattoo thing with women is a fad. Once your tattooed, you can't just toss it and get something new.

But I will never judge anyone by whether they have a tattoo or not.

Blessings to you

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But I will never judge anyone by whether they have a tattoo or not.

And neither would I.

But surely you can see the difference between judging the practice and judging the person who does it, right? I've been trying to make this distinction.

Tattoos are not like Nike shoes (good grief). Tattoing in western society has always been the exclusive territory of pagans devoted to their gods of rebellion and sensuality and pride. Many are being deceived into thinking that is not true and that it is somehow neutral, like the make of shoes you where, and that it's only as good or bad as you think it is, or use it to be. Culturally speaking, that's just not true. That's what makes it different from the other things and practices people use to justify and rationalize getting a 'Christian' tattoo. There's never been anything good and holy about getting a tattoo in western society before so many people started innocently, or not so innocently, experimenting with it in the mainstream.

And because all that is true, Christian tattooing has the terrible potential of causing those coming out of the dark world of rebellion and sensuality to Christ to harm their conscience by caving into a Christian tattoo artist who says it means nothing...to them.

 

[jasoncran]

But I will never judge anyone by whether they have a tattoo or not.

And neither would I.

But surely you can see the difference between judging the practice and judging the person who does it, right? I've been trying to make this distinction.

Tattoos are not like Nike shoes (good grief). Tattoing in western society has always been the exclusive territory of pagans devoted to their gods of rebellion and sensuality and pride. Many are being deceived into thinking that is not true and that it is somehow neutral, like the make of shoes you where, and that it's only as good or bad as you think it is, or use it to be. Just not true. That's what makes this different from the other things and practices people use to justify and rationalize getting a 'Christian' tattoo. There's never been anything good and holy about getting a tattoo in western society before so many people started experimenting with it in the mainstream.

And because all that is true, Christian tattooing has the terrible potential of causing those coming out of the dark world of rebellion and sensuality to Christ to harm their conscience by caving into a Christian tattoo artist who says it means nothing...to them.

I avoiding martial arts for years over that. I can do it now but I couldn't do after I came to Christ. the pagan origins and some teachings I had and some still teach were the reasons. I can see how it can be a stumbling block.

no body is saying that by wearing a nike that one is making a statement of pride and rebellion.

 

[Deborah13]

Tattoing in western society has always been the exclusive territory of pagans devoted to their gods of rebellion and sensuality and pride.

I really don't know. I know military men used to get them years ago. But I don't know their motives. A ribbon and heart that says, Mom. I don't know.
Not my field of knowledge at all.

 

[jasoncran]

Tattoing in western society has always been the exclusive territory of pagans devoted to their gods of rebellion and sensuality and pride.

I really don't know. I know military men used to get them years ago. But I don't know their motives. A ribbon and heart that says, Mom. I don't know.
Not my field of knowledge at all.

if it was prior 2003, then they broke the MILITARY code of justice and could have been punished for that, with either a rank reductions or extra duty. that has happened in my days in the service.is it criminal? no but it is punishable.i wont derail this thread on what the ucmj is and how it works.

 

[farouk]

Guys, thanks for the continuing, interesting contributions.

Tattoing in western society has always been the exclusive territory of pagans devoted to their gods of rebellion and sensuality and pride.

I really don't know. I know military men used to get them years ago. But I don't know their motives. A ribbon and heart that says, Mom. I don't know.
Not my field of knowledge at all.

@Deborah13 :

I'm not sure either.

You're right about military men, anyway. Also these days military wives do it a very great deal. As @forgiven , herself a military wife in the past, was saying:

Originally Posted by farouk
Anyway, you'll probably find that quite a number of the other Air Force wives connected with dh's base have had it done. Or at least will do eventually.

www dot mademan dot com/mm/10-army-wife-tattoos.html#ixzz2YPwRZOur[/URL]

<O:p</O:p[/COLOR]


But anyway, I think what you said earlier remains pretty relevant, really:

The Holy Spirit, speaks to hearts.
...Reflection on this should be considered, I would think. ...So all I can say, is one must always pray and seek the Lord's guidance.

Blessings

Yes, we need to respect the fact that individual Christians are likely to feel guided by the Lord after praying and reading His Word, and won't all necessarily come to the same conclusions over matters which aren't always clear cut and which often hinge upon personal tastes and indivdual exercise about witness.

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

PS: @Deborah13 : I think you'll agree, particularly with regard to your lifetime and family experience, that nothing remains static from a customary or fashion perspective.

You do make me grin. You know my mom taught me fashion sense. I was a tomboy and still am. Give me jeans, tennis shoes or boots and I'm as happy as peach pie, but.....my mom taught me that when a woman buys clothes, stick to the classic styles and you will never go wrong and they will always be in style. I worked in offices for many years and I always followed her advise. Fads come and go. I really believe this whole tattoo thing with women is a fad. Once your tattooed, you can't just toss it and get something new.

But I will never judge anyone by whether they have a tattoo or not.

Blessings to you

@Deborah13 :

I was just reading your previous post, above (this thread has certainly been busy).

I agree in general terms about fads and the cyclical nature of fashion.

When it comes to the content of faith based designs, inked or otherwise, etc., there is a sense in which the truth content is enduring, of course.

(But I think you would agree with this also. Yes, it does make me smile as well.)

Blessings.

@Jethro Bodine :

Do you think that your strong attachment to the provisions of Leviticus 19, with its prohibition of trimming beards, (do preachers shave?) comes from an ecclesiology which does not distinguish Israel and the church? I sense in your contributions (and thank-you for them) a deep-seated aspiration to return to Old Testament conditions; I may be wrong, though. Blessings.

 

[farouk]

( @Atonement just posted on the other thread this comment which given its subject matter I took the opportunity of posting here: )

I already have two tattoos and I like them and I have no regrets, but if I had to do it all over again I wouldn't put any tatts on my body! Just my opinion.

Well, this is a very interesting combination of views: on the one hand you wouldn't do it again if you were deciding now.

But you are comfortable with your tattoos, which you like, and don't regret them at all.

So often people are either wildly keen on accumulating as many tattoos as possible, or else (and sometimes the same person) will be furiously opposed to tattoos.

But your view seems like it's midway. I guess it's indicative of a mature outlook for people to be confident and satisfied as a tattooed man or woman, but not necessarily attaching a huge importance to them, one way or another.

(Also I appreciate @handy 's point on the other thread, when she reminds us that due regard does need to be paid to their permanence, and I guess this is quite separate from whether or not at some level she might happen to like them or not. And again for @Deborah13 purely hypothetically motive would seem to be a big issue surrounding why people get tattoos. For [MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION], part of the key issue seems to be acknowledging that customs and fashions do change over the years, while recognizing that it's good not to follow the dictates of fashion too wildly.)

Blessings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

@Jethro Bodine :

Do you think that your strong attachment to the provisions of Leviticus 19, with its prohibition of trimming beards, (do preachers shave?) comes from an ecclesiology which does not distinguish Israel and the church?

No. It's not even a consideration. I kinda thought I'd explained the law issue pretty clearly(?)

I sense in your contributions (and thank-you for them) a deep-seated aspiration to return to Old Testament conditions; I may be wrong, though. Blessings.

Not even remotely true.

The reason I gave was not because the prohibition against tattooing is in the law. It's why the prohibition is in the law that I resist the effort to bring the practice into the church. But as I say, in twenty or thirty years, I'm guessing tattooing will be well on it's way to being like Easter and Christmas celebrations in the church...so far removed from it's historical meaning and use that the issue of conscience, and tattooing causing people to cave into old life styles, becomes a non-issue.

Oh, and I'm disappointed that I failed to communicate why cutting hair and beards is like Christmas and Easter in the church now.

 

[acarrollfan]

I personally have no issue with any Christians having tattoos on their bodies.

 

[Eugene]

I personally have no issue with any Christians having tattoos on their bodies.

Hi acarrollfan and welcome. Thanks for giving us your time, and I hope you enjoy it here.

 

[farouk]

@Deborah13 's comment earlier about the military prompted me to bring these quotes from military wives, who often have deeply felt convictions about why they have gotten tattoos:

I have a tattoo ..that I got the last time my husband was deployed; ... the words Silent Ranks. .. People question me all the time what Silent Ranks mean and, being a proud military wife, I do not mind explaining that it is another name for a military wife. We don't wear the uniform but we sign on the day we put on that ring to everything the military sends our spouses way.

I have a fairly high pain tolerance. There were areas that were uncomfortable, but overall it wasn't bad. It took me three years to finally get mine. I had the same design in my mind the whole time, but still wasn't sure. After all, it's permanent. I settled on getting Immanuel written across my wrist in Hebrew. As a military wife of faith, I felt there would be many times I would need to remember "God is with us" (which is what Immanuel means in Hebrew).

from: militaryspouse.com

Blessings.

 

[George Muller]

particularly since they are proven as effective conversation starters.

You can't prove this for nothing. In fact, the more you go on and on about it, it is clear you have a very clear and pointed agenda. You say let every conscience be their guide, yet your speech is subtly encouraging one to get one. How many threads have you made on this subject? On other sites? Your agenda is bordering on idolatry, and if I have sinned bringing this to your attention in this manner, forgive me Father.

Your points have been made clear through hundreds of posts now, allow others now to make their own decisions guided by the Spirit, empowered by the Word of God to lead them. Not farouks biased and misguided agenda. I also see you have completely ignored and not responded to recent posts, including my own based on scripture on why tattooing is not right for a Christian. You always argue the worlds standards to make your point, yet you forget God's standard of righteousness has never changed.

I ask the mods to close this thread, as well as other related threads as this has been beaten to death now, and if people want info on it, they can use the search function.

@Ryan :

Okay so the Scriptures you mentioned don't refer to tattoos.

They refer to the ways of death, etc., and to the fact that our bodies are the Lord's.

Yes there are such things as ways of death, and yes our bodies are the Lord's.

Okay then.

You want me and everyone to agree that only your interpretation that these verses apply to tattoos, and prohibit tattoos, is valid. Oh well.

You also want to close down viewpoints that don't accord with your interpretation in this matter. Oh well.

I've actually had mod feedback to the effect that this seems an interesting discussion. (I guess it's also a contemporary and relevant topic.)

Blessings.

MY interpretation??? You have completely ignored post #182 and God's Word. Jesus had zeal for the Father's temple, how much more zeal does he have for our Temple?

Sin is sin. Paul said how do we know what sin is? Romans 7:7

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Did the law ever point to anything about cutting one's body? Leviticus 19:28 says it is a sin. Yet you say it is not. Same token. Should you and everyone else agree with YOUR interpretation of scriptures? Your interpretations and what you are arguing for is not based on anything scripturally. The verses provided indicates you are in error, yet you deny of being in error.

Oh come on? It says in this same scripture that the commandment produced a evil desire to do that which it commanded us not to do. Legalism does not make anyone holy, but only makes big hypocrites and Pharisees, always going around telling others what is sin and finding fault in those who do not conform to their religious traditions. There is no law against tats for a Christian except the law written upon the heart of that believer. If a believer answers to God, who is another man, to make a charge against that believer?

 

[George Muller]

PS: @Deborah13 : I think you'll agree, particularly with regard to your lifetime and family experience, that nothing remains static from a customary or fashion perspective.

You do make me grin. You know my mom taught me fashion sense. I was a tomboy and still am. Give me jeans, tennis shoes or boots and I'm as happy as peach pie, but.....my mom taught me that when a woman buys clothes, stick to the classic styles and you will never go wrong and they will always be in style. I worked in offices for many years and I always followed her advise. Fads come and go. I really believe this whole tattoo thing with women is a fad. Once your tattooed, you can't just toss it and get something new.

But I will never judge anyone by whether they have a tattoo or not.

Blessings to you

Many of these same people would condemn a woman for wearing pants for years, but now that the times have changed this seems very silly, it was never a biblical standard placed upon believers but a tradition of man built upon the misuse of certain scriptures. God could care less if a woman wears pants? or make-up etc... Andrew Wommack put it this way "if your barn needs painting, paint it! if it needs two coats? give it two coats of paint" None of these things have anything to do with the heart of a believer, upon which the Lord looks. If a believers heart is right, they need no man or mans religion to tell them how to dress or look.

 

[Northman]

First and foremost i admit to not reading this whole thread.

Cant and wouldnt want to judge anyone else, but for me this is sort of business is totally off limits. Any time its entered my mind it gets dismissed on grounds of pride and adornments. Admittedly, the frequency isnt/wasnt often just cause i find most all designs either completely unattractive, pagan in nature, or engineered to provoke all sorts of lust by making eyes map someones body.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Any time its entered my mind it gets dismissed on grounds of pride and adornments.

This is what it's all about.

Historically, this is what tattooing has been all about.

Pride, rebellion, and sensuality. Sensuality, IMO, being the main reason tattooing has become popular with women...and, also IMO, why men endorse the practice for women.

 

[farouk]

First and foremost i admit to not reading this whole thread.

Cant and wouldnt want to judge anyone else, but for me this is sort of business is totally off limits. Any time its entered my mind it gets dismissed on grounds of pride and adornments. Admittedly, the frequency isnt/wasnt often just cause i find most all designs either completely unattractive, pagan in nature, or engineered to provoke all sorts of lust by making eyes map someones body.

Hi @Northman :

When it comes to homeschooling moms or grammas with the initials of kids/grankids on a modest wrist placement, and/or a Bible ref. or Christian fish sign <><, for example, would you really still claim that it's for purposes of lust?

I'm all for modesty and moderation, as you seem to be, too.

(My problem with attributing bad things to anyone male or female who gets even modest, faith based designs in reasonable placements, it's artbitrary to restrict such a 'prohibition' only to a tattoo.)

Thanks for your comment. Blessings.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When it comes to homeschooling moms or grammas with the initials of kids/grankids on a modest wrist placement, and/or a Bible ref. or Christian fish sign <><, for example, would you really still claim that it's for purposes of lust?

"See, I can be cool, too."

A.k.a. pride...with a dash of rebellion, and the added benefit of a little sensuality.

Reminds me of Miley Cyrus--just to a lesser degree.

I'm all for modesty and moderation, as you seem to be, too.

Pride in moderation, or disguised in religion, is still pride (or rebellion, or sensuality...).

(My problem with attributing bad things to anyone male or female who gets even modest, faith based designs in reasonable placements, it's artbitrary to restrict such a 'prohibition' only to a tattoo.)

It's pretty hard to rationalize tattoos as being like pants, or other things that really have been, and can be--given their history--indulged without pride, rebellion, and sensuality, and are not so necessarily attached to those things. You got an uphill battle to suggest that's true about tattoos. But it will get easier and easier as more and more people cave into the practice by rationalizing it the way society does (moderation, content, placement...).

 

[Ryan]

@Ryan :

Okay so the Scriptures you mentioned don't refer to tattoos.

They refer to the ways of death, etc., and to the fact that our bodies are the Lord's.

Yes there are such things as ways of death, and yes our bodies are the Lord's.

Okay then.

You want me and everyone to agree that only your interpretation that these verses apply to tattoos, and prohibit tattoos, is valid. Oh well.

You also want to close down viewpoints that don't accord with your interpretation in this matter. Oh well.

I've actually had mod feedback to the effect that this seems an interesting discussion. (I guess it's also a contemporary and relevant topic.)

Blessings.

MY interpretation??? You have completely ignored post #182 and God's Word. Jesus had zeal for the Father's temple, how much more zeal does he have for our Temple?

Sin is sin. Paul said how do we know what sin is? Romans 7:7

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.â€

Did the law ever point to anything about cutting one's body? Leviticus 19:28 says it is a sin. Yet you say it is not. Same token. Should you and everyone else agree with YOUR interpretation of scriptures? Your interpretations and what you are arguing for is not based on anything scripturally. The verses provided indicates you are in error, yet you deny of being in error.

@Ryan :

Again, those passages (except just hypothetically Leviticus 19) don't refer to tattoos.

In the case of Leviticus 19, the adjacent passage refers to not trimming the corners of beards. (Do preachers shave?) It also refers to the 'for the dead' context of pagan necromancy. A homeschooling mom or gramma, or military wife, or young man leaving home for the first time, and who might get a Christian fish symbol <>< on a wrist, or a phrase such as 'God protect our families', or 'John 3.16' (etc.) is not particularly related to pagan necromancy practices. In fact, for 'not particularly', read, 'many people wouldn't see any connection'.

You would also surely agree with [MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION] in her most recent post, above, where she said, with regard to the possibility of getting a tattoo:

one must always pray and seek the Lord's guidance.

Thanks for your post, @Ryan .

Blessings.

PS: I did actually look up and refer to some of the Scriptures you mentioned in your post #182.

Late response, but better late than never. How are we then to choose and decide which teachings from Leviticus 19 are for us, and not for us? God is so much smarter then we are, and I trust him to know what is best for me. Whether he said them 3500 years ago, or 2 seconds ago. His righteousness is timeless and does not move with the signs and times of the day.

 

[Ryan]

@Ryan :

Okay so the Scriptures you mentioned don't refer to tattoos.

They refer to the ways of death, etc., and to the fact that our bodies are the Lord's.

Yes there are such things as ways of death, and yes our bodies are the Lord's.

Okay then.

You want me and everyone to agree that only your interpretation that these verses apply to tattoos, and prohibit tattoos, is valid. Oh well.

You also want to close down viewpoints that don't accord with your interpretation in this matter. Oh well.

I've actually had mod feedback to the effect that this seems an interesting discussion. (I guess it's also a contemporary and relevant topic.)

Blessings.

MY interpretation??? You have completely ignored post #182 and God's Word. Jesus had zeal for the Father's temple, how much more zeal does he have for our Temple?

Sin is sin. Paul said how do we know what sin is? Romans 7:7

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Did the law ever point to anything about cutting one's body? Leviticus 19:28 says it is a sin. Yet you say it is not. Same token. Should you and everyone else agree with YOUR interpretation of scriptures? Your interpretations and what you are arguing for is not based on anything scripturally. The verses provided indicates you are in error, yet you deny of being in error.

Oh come on? It says in this same scripture that the commandment produced a evil desire to do that which it commanded us not to do. Legalism does not make anyone holy, but only makes big hypocrites and Pharisees, always going around telling others what is sin and finding fault in those who do not conform to their religious traditions. There is no law against tats for a Christian except the law written upon the heart of that believer. If a believer answers to God, who is another man, to make a charge against that believer?

Legalism is different than being obedient, but can move into legalism, granted. If I told you it would probably be best not to lie for example cause God gave instructions not to do so, would you call me a legalist?