Poll re. good tattoo artist career for a Christian woman - Part 2

[Ryan]

Gonna put that one in the piggy bank for future use. Thanks [MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION]

Going outside the parameters of how God instructed praise and worshipping him can be dangerous.

Proverbs 14:12 and Proverbs 16:25 echo the same thing. Even if one argues the absence of the OT, there is enough scriptural support in the NT to raise the question this is a seriously questionable activity/occupation for a believer. Our bodies are temples of the Most High 1 Corinthians 6:19 interesting that he would equate our bodies with his revered temple and sanctuary of where he dwelt from. Jesus kicked out the money changers from the temple to preserve his Father's house. 3 times was the story related in Matthew 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-17; John 2:14-17 of Jesus being "zealous" for the Father's house. We are equalled to as being temples, how zealous do you think God is for us to protect and preserve the bodies he had made for us?

 

[Deborah13]

I'll be back later, guys...
[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]: So what you make of the latest posts, above?

Blessings.

The Holy Spirit, speaks to hearts.

Some people say, wearing a necklace with a cross, is idolatry. I have two single daughters, one wears a gold cross, the other a silver cross. To them, it speaks to those they meet, that they are Christians, especially men. They do not spend time looking down at it or in the mirror worshiping it. If in the future, the Holy Spirit spoke to them against it, they can easily take it off and put it away. Not so with a tattoo.

I can see what [MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION] pointed out. Where he lives, may give him more insight into pagan religious practices, that still go on today. Because I live where I do, I don't see these things. Reflection on this should be considered, I would think. I'm sure that not everyone knows that a fish is a Christian symbol. I didn't before I was saved. So where it might open the door to witness, it might also close other doors.

So all I can say, is one must always pray and seek the Lord's guidance.

Blessings

 

[jasoncran]

I'll be back later, guys...
[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]: So what you make of the latest posts, above?

Blessings.

The Holy Spirit, speaks to hearts.

Some people say, wearing a necklace with a cross, is idolatry. I have two single daughters, one wears a gold cross, the other a silver cross. To them, it speaks to those they meet, that they are Christians, especially men. They do not spend time looking down at it or in the mirror worshiping it. If in the future, the Holy Spirit spoke to them against it, they can easily take it off and put it away. Not so with a tattoo.

I can see what [MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION] pointed out. Where he lives, may give him more insight into pagan religious practices, that still go on today. Because I live where I do, I don't see these things. Reflection on this should be considered, I would think. I'm sure that not everyone knows that a fish is a Christian symbol. I didn't before I was saved. So where it might open the door to witness, it might also close other doors.

So all I can say, is one must always pray and seek the Lord's guidance.

Blessings

I would say that its not so much where I live but where I have lived and also what men say.i don't have to go looking for tats . so many women have them and show them proudly. its hot enough year round to either to the beach, get a tat and also run with half a nuttin as clothes. man while the old man loves that I don't get it. they gawk when men whistle or ogle and yet wear that! and a lot of them have tats in places that makes it obvious.

 

[farouk]

I'll be back later, guys...
[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]: So what you make of the latest posts, above?

Blessings.

The Holy Spirit, speaks to hearts.

Some people say, wearing a necklace with a cross, is idolatry. I have two single daughters, one wears a gold cross, the other a silver cross. To them, it speaks to those they meet, that they are Christians, especially men. They do not spend time looking down at it or in the mirror worshiping it. If in the future, the Holy Spirit spoke to them against it, they can easily take it off and put it away. Not so with a tattoo.

I can see what [MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION] pointed out. Where he lives, may give him more insight into pagan religious practices, that still go on today. Because I live where I do, I don't see these things. Reflection on this should be considered, I would think. I'm sure that not everyone knows that a fish is a Christian symbol. I didn't before I was saved. So where it might open the door to witness, it might also close other doors.

So all I can say, is one must always pray and seek the Lord's guidance.

Blessings

[MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]:

Thanks a lot for your considered thoughts! I think about what you said.

Blessings; & say Hi to Lexy.

 

[jasoncran]

oh and I have my step daughter the mother of my newest addition to the family that is into the occult whom has a what? the symbol of a wicca. its also seen in led zeppelin 4. in this image its the second from the left. I made the ignorant statement about that one time and thought she loved one of the members of the zeppelin band and she said no, its a wicca symbol! she also did tarot card and she goes to mass weekly. so don't think that doesn't go on.

 

[farouk]

[MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION]; [MENTION=88699]Jethro Bodine[/MENTION];

Thanks, guys, for your thoughts.

I guess I'm trying to look at the issue, and similar ones (nothing is in isolation, I guess) from a framework of decency and modesty being present. And from the fact that some people will, for example, get a Christian fish sign <>< or Biblical words, etc. on a wrist, say, with a witness motive.

If really there is nothing indecent about the placement, and it's undertaken with the express motive of being a witness, since they are known to be very effective conversation-starters, then I have a very hard job in putting the idolatry label on them.

Fact is, it seems to me that one could fix upon various other things, too. For example, my wife wears high heels, make up and some of her skirts hover above the knee, but the fact is that in our culture these things are not specifically associated with anything bad. She would seem to people to be basically soberly dressed and modest in her appearance. Now I know that it would be possible for some people to have had a fixation in the past about some of the things she might wear, and then they might even try to go the legalistic route and imply that these things are wrong and blameworthy and always to be avoided, etc. But the fact is that in our culture today they are totally acceptable.

I guess there is an analogy with decent, modest tattoo designs, as well, Especially if they are in a modest placement and obtained specifically as a witness tool. Some might in the past have had a fixation, and so now might try to imply that they are all blameworthy, etc.

But I come back to the idea that if a person is decent and modest, and the design is God honoring, it's not appropriate to imply that the person isn't decent and modest after all, or to find fault with their motive in getting a faith based design done.

Blessings.

 

[George Muller]

So are you saying that an inked Christian fish sign <>< (drawn extensively by early Christian travellers) or a Bible ref. on a wrist, say, acquired with the prayerful motive of testimony, becomes to that person a table of demons that precludes fellowship between that person and the Lord?

You quote that passage in First Corinthians 10, but do you really believe that this is the case with a tattoo in the circumstances I just described?

If so, this is a really, really sweeping assumption.

Blessings.

<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>You must not worship the Lord your God in their way." (Deuteronomy 12:4 NIV)

(Fearing it would involve too much explanation, I deleted this from my post #146.)

You can say, "but that's the law", and "the law has 'passed away', and is 'no longer binding' ", but you can't just sweep away God's reasons for commanding that we not worship the true God in the way of the pagans with that distorted, overused, misguided, misapplied teaching in the church.

What about a pair of NIKE shoes? One could go on and on with this sort of legalism. I say that each believer is to answer to God with their own conscience, I would not think that God would lead me to get tats, therefore He would need to speak in a very clear way to ever lead me in that direction. I hope that the Spirit of God upon me, and His peace and love to be my witness to this world. But to attempt to condemn and judge other believers for doing what they believe is right before the Lord would be a much greater sin than getting a tat.

 

[farouk]

So are you saying that an inked Christian fish sign <>< (drawn extensively by early Christian travellers) or a Bible ref. on a wrist, say, acquired with the prayerful motive of testimony, becomes to that person a table of demons that precludes fellowship between that person and the Lord?

You quote that passage in First Corinthians 10, but do you really believe that this is the case with a tattoo in the circumstances I just described?

If so, this is a really, really sweeping assumption.

Blessings.

<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>You must not worship the Lord your God in their way." (Deuteronomy 12:4 NIV)

(Fearing it would involve too much explanation, I deleted this from my post #146.)

You can say, "but that's the law", and "the law has 'passed away', and is 'no longer binding' ", but you can't just sweep away God's reasons for commanding that we not worship the true God in the way of the pagans with that distorted, overused, misguided, misapplied teaching in the church.

What about a pair of NIKE shoes? One could go on and on with this sort of legalism. I say that each believer is to answer to God with their own conscience, I would not think that God would lead me to get tats, therefore He would need to speak in a very clear way to ever lead me in that direction. I hope that the Spirit of God upon me, and His peace and love to be my witness to this world. But to attempt to condemn and judge other believers for doing what they believe is right before the Lord would be a much greater sin than getting a tat.

[MENTION=96503]George Muller[/MENTION]:

Well, exactly.

Once one goes down the legalistic route, then there's no end to it.

I can truly appreciate that some people may have had unhealthy fixations in the past and that they are trying to be God honoring now through their struggles. We need to respect this fact. There is also the aspect that if the person concerned remains decent and modest, then no purpose is served by trying to imply the contrary.

And I'm not just saying to people, Go get a tattoo. No way.

It's more nuanced than this; we live in a complex world and the fact is that it's very widespread; many Christians have them, some in faith based designs, and it can (for some people) be an effective way of getting to talk to people. [MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION] has mentioned about her daughters and what they wear, maybe for similar reasons, though it's a different medium.

Blessings.

 

[farouk]

This is a background comment, which isn't intended to say that in itself the situation is good, bad or indifferent. But just as an indication of the underlying reality.

I read that a film maker from Hollywood, I think, wanted to re-create a beach scene from the 1950s. With a wardrobe of 1950s-style swimwear, he auditioned many young women for the scene. But he couldn't find enough young women without tattoos (generally speaking, not so many women had tattoos in the 1950s). In the end they had to revert to using skin colored make up.

This is not so say this is necessarily, good, or bad, or indifferent.

It does reflect the underlying reality that today the practice is very widespread.

This being said, there are some Godly Christians who, while keeping within the bounds of modesty, have chosen to embrace the medium with faith based designs, instead of fighting against it, particularly since they are proven as effective conversation starters.

Blessings.

PS: @Deborah13 : I think you'll agree, particularly with regard to your lifetime and family experience, that nothing remains static from a customary or fashion perspective. Some choose to fight changing customs; others, if they can be sanctified, choose to embrace them within a framework of modesty. No one needs to embrace them, of course, but it's reasonable to hope that other Christians who don't embrace the changing customs within a framework of modesty, won't end up fighting other Christians as well as fighting the customary changes even if there is nothing heretical or immoral about those changes.

Blessings.

 

[Ryan]

particularly since they are proven as effective conversation starters.

You can't prove this for nothing. In fact, the more you go on and on about it, it is clear you have a very clear and pointed agenda. You say let every conscience be their guide, yet your speech is subtly encouraging one to get one. How many threads have you made on this subject? On other sites? Your agenda is bordering on idolatry, and if I have sinned bringing this to your attention in this manner, forgive me Father.

Your points have been made clear through hundreds of posts now, allow others now to make their own decisions guided by the Spirit, empowered by the Word of God to lead them. Not farouks biased and misguided agenda. I also see you have completely ignored and not responded to recent posts, including my own based on scripture on why tattooing is not right for a Christian. You always argue the worlds standards to make your point, yet you forget God's standard of righteousness has never changed.

I ask the mods to close this thread, as well as other related threads as this has been beaten to death now, and if people want info on it, they can use the search function.

 

[farouk]

particularly since they are proven as effective conversation starters.

You can't prove this for nothing. In fact, the more you go on and on about it, it is clear you have a very clear and pointed agenda. You say let every conscience be their guide, yet your speech is subtly encouraging one to get one. How many threads have you made on this subject? On other sites? Your agenda is bordering on idolatry, and if I have sinned bringing this to your attention in this manner, forgive me Father.

Your points have been made clear through hundreds of posts now, allow others now to make their own decisions guided by the Spirit, empowered by the Word of God to lead them. Not farouks biased and misguided agenda. I also see you have completely ignored and not responded to recent posts, including my own based on scripture on why tattooing is not right for a Christian. You always argue the worlds standards to make your point, yet you forget God's standard of righteousness has never changed.

I ask the mods to close this thread, as well as other related threads as this has been beaten to death now, and if people want info on it, they can use the search function.

@Ryan :

Okay so the Scriptures you mentioned don't refer to tattoos.

They refer to the ways of death, etc., and to the fact that our bodies are the Lord's.

Yes there are such things as ways of death, and yes our bodies are the Lord's.

Okay then.

You want me and everyone to agree that only your interpretation that these verses apply to tattoos, and prohibit tattoos, is valid. Oh well.

You also want to close down viewpoints that don't accord with your interpretation in this matter. Oh well.

I've actually had mod feedback to the effect that this seems an interesting discussion. (I guess it's also a contemporary and relevant topic.) Mods [MENTION=47381]reba[/MENTION] and [MENTION=4376]handy[/MENTION] have also constructively contributed to it, recently.

I'm grateful for all viewpoints expressed; and we can all try to expess ourselves contructively, as well.

Blessings.

PS: Actually many people have proved them to be conversation-starters.

 

[Ryan]

particularly since they are proven as effective conversation starters.

You can't prove this for nothing. In fact, the more you go on and on about it, it is clear you have a very clear and pointed agenda. You say let every conscience be their guide, yet your speech is subtly encouraging one to get one. How many threads have you made on this subject? On other sites? Your agenda is bordering on idolatry, and if I have sinned bringing this to your attention in this manner, forgive me Father.

Your points have been made clear through hundreds of posts now, allow others now to make their own decisions guided by the Spirit, empowered by the Word of God to lead them. Not farouks biased and misguided agenda. I also see you have completely ignored and not responded to recent posts, including my own based on scripture on why tattooing is not right for a Christian. You always argue the worlds standards to make your point, yet you forget God's standard of righteousness has never changed.

I ask the mods to close this thread, as well as other related threads as this has been beaten to death now, and if people want info on it, they can use the search function.

@Ryan :

Okay so the Scriptures you mentioned don't refer to tattoos.

They refer to the ways of death, etc., and to the fact that our bodies are the Lord's.

Yes there are such things as ways of death, and yes our bodies are the Lord's.

Okay then.

You want me and everyone to agree that only your interpretation that these verses apply to tattoos, and prohibit tattoos, is valid. Oh well.

You also want to close down viewpoints that don't accord with your interpretation in this matter. Oh well.

I've actually had mod feedback to the effect that this seems an interesting discussion. (I guess it's also a contemporary and relevant topic.)

Blessings.

MY interpretation??? You have completely ignored post #182 and God's Word. Jesus had zeal for the Father's temple, how much more zeal does he have for our Temple?

Sin is sin. Paul said how do we know what sin is? Romans 7:7

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Did the law ever point to anything about cutting one's body? Leviticus 19:28 says it is a sin. Yet you say it is not. Same token. Should you and everyone else agree with YOUR interpretation of scriptures? Your interpretations and what you are arguing for is not based on anything scripturally. The verses provided indicates you are in error, yet you deny of being in error.

 

[jasoncran]

ya know farouk, I should do the 666 thing and post pics here of it on my back but the reaction of the church would be do disbar me from teaching there. I prefer that not to happen. It would soooooo much be a conservation starter.after all some many associate 666 with the devil and I could well show them what is truth and what it isn't. yet some would assume that I would be a pagan. what is wrong with that then?

 

[farouk]

particularly since they are proven as effective conversation starters.

You can't prove this for nothing. In fact, the more you go on and on about it, it is clear you have a very clear and pointed agenda. You say let every conscience be their guide, yet your speech is subtly encouraging one to get one. How many threads have you made on this subject? On other sites? Your agenda is bordering on idolatry, and if I have sinned bringing this to your attention in this manner, forgive me Father.

Your points have been made clear through hundreds of posts now, allow others now to make their own decisions guided by the Spirit, empowered by the Word of God to lead them. Not farouks biased and misguided agenda. I also see you have completely ignored and not responded to recent posts, including my own based on scripture on why tattooing is not right for a Christian. You always argue the worlds standards to make your point, yet you forget God's standard of righteousness has never changed.

I ask the mods to close this thread, as well as other related threads as this has been beaten to death now, and if people want info on it, they can use the search function.

@Ryan :

Okay so the Scriptures you mentioned don't refer to tattoos.

They refer to the ways of death, etc., and to the fact that our bodies are the Lord's.

Yes there are such things as ways of death, and yes our bodies are the Lord's.

Okay then.

You want me and everyone to agree that only your interpretation that these verses apply to tattoos, and prohibit tattoos, is valid. Oh well.

You also want to close down viewpoints that don't accord with your interpretation in this matter. Oh well.

I've actually had mod feedback to the effect that this seems an interesting discussion. (I guess it's also a contemporary and relevant topic.)

Blessings.

MY interpretation??? You have completely ignored post #182 and God's Word. Jesus had zeal for the Father's temple, how much more zeal does he have for our Temple?

Sin is sin. Paul said how do we know what sin is? Romans 7:7

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Did the law ever point to anything about cutting one's body? Leviticus 19:28 says it is a sin. Yet you say it is not. Same token. Should you and everyone else agree with YOUR interpretation of scriptures? Your interpretations and what you are arguing for is not based on anything scripturally. The verses provided indicates you are in error, yet you deny of being in error.

@Ryan :

Again, those passages (except just hypothetically Leviticus 19) don't refer to tattoos.

In the case of Leviticus 19, the adjacent passage refers to not trimming the corners of beards. (Do preachers shave?) It also refers to the 'for the dead' context of pagan necromancy. A homeschooling mom or gramma, or military wife, or young man leaving home for the first time, and who might get a Christian fish symbol <>< on a wrist, or a phrase such as 'God protect our families', or 'John 3.16' (etc.) is not particularly related to pagan necromancy practices. In fact, for 'not particularly', read, 'many people wouldn't see any connection'.

You would also surely agree with [MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION] in her most recent post, above, where she said, with regard to the possibility of getting a tattoo:

one must always pray and seek the Lord's guidance.

Thanks for your post, @Ryan .

Blessings.

PS: I did actually look up and refer to some of the Scriptures you mentioned in your post #182.

 

[farouk]

ya know farouk, I should do the 666 thing and post pics here of it on my back but the reaction of the church would be do disbar me from teaching there. I prefer that not to happen. It would soooooo much be a conservation starter.after all some many associate 666 with the devil and I could well show them what is truth and what it isn't. yet some would assume that I would be a pagan. what is wrong with that then?

[MENTION=11841]jasoncran[/MENTION]:

I think you and I would completely agree that 666 would not make a good testimony tattoo design.

Blessings.

 

[jasoncran]

ah but it would be a good conversation starter. why not, why not then do that? I could use the gemera as well do point out nero. heres the problem if having tats is ok for say a simple fish , then why not morals of nature?

this would be one my wife would want as she has already lusted for it. in my house I have dream catchers etc, my wife is American indian. I know what they are and what they believed in. can they cause a person to stumble. yes its possible but I cant change my wife. this image could do the same or it could be as to my wife just a rememberance of Cheyenne when she dies. either way it is from a shamanistic faith and that is the point!

 

[farouk]

ah but it would be a good conversation starter. why not, why not then do that? I could use the gemera as well do point out nero. heres the problem if having tats is ok for say a simple fish , then why not morals of nature?

this would be one my wife would want as she has already lusted for it. in my house I have dream catchers etc, my wife is American indian. I know what they are and what they believed in. can they cause a person to stumble. yes its possible but I cant change my wife. this image could do the same or it could be as to my wife just a rememberance of Cheyenne when she dies. either way it is from a shamanistic faith and that is the point!

@jasoncran :

I guess we are talking about the appropriateness of designs which reflect the Christian faith rather than something else.

Whether your wife wants a tattoo is something I can't say too much. Lots of women have them; and some Christian women do, too; but it's very much a matter of personal and spousal conviction.

Blessings.

 

[jasoncran]

so you don't see that you are supporting that picture. if you didn't hear me mention that its from indian folklore or you didn't know me thinks that you wouldn't have any problem.

 

[farouk]

so you don't see that you are supporting that picture. if you didn't hear me mention that its from indian folklore or you didn't know me thinks that you wouldn't have any problem.

@jasoncran :

Well, I don't think I suggested that the design you attached would be a good Christian witness tool.

The early Christians would often trace the <>< sign, referring to 'Jesus Christ, God's Son, Savior' in Greek, which also spels 'fish' in Greek. It also ties in with the Lord's promise: 'I will make you fishers of men'. Some Christians might it an effective design as a tattoo, also, for example.

Blessings.

 

[jasoncran]

actualy it was ieousos in a fish shape drawn, I actually had the shirt and seen it on a show about archeology.

so you don't think Christians should be allowed to have just plain ole art? most art things with wolves are borrowed from indian folklore. sorry but that is what I have seen. I have a ton of plates with wolves howling and Indians. a wolf is central it seems to the indian folklore.