Power over sin by the Spirit of Grace

[George Muller]

This would mean that you yourself personally know all the Greek scholars that have ever read this passage.

Not!!

Yes JLB, its called study of the Bible and to know the related issues as it relates to the scriptures, I suggest that you should spend some time in this sort of study into the Greek and the view of the scholars, as to what is proven and evident. There is no debate about this scripture and your point is just vain and has no bearing on the truth of Gods Righteousness.

 

[JLB]

You claim to remove wording from the text, while at the same time accuse those who don't add or take away from God's word as twisting and making unbiblical statements!

That is truly backwards..

Here is what the scripture says -

21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The idea being conveyed here is a "process of becoming".

No, I have the Greek and "might" is not there, it is a word added in translation. Also the righteousness of faith is so well established in the New Testament (as I have shown in part) that any point you "think" you are making as to how this verse is read is just a vain and meaningless point.

2Co 5:21 For <gar> he hath made <poieo> him to be sin <hamartia> for <huper> us, <hemon> who <ho> knew <ginosko> no <me> sin; <hamartia> that <hina> we <hemeis> might be made <ginomai> the righteousness <dikaiosune> of God <theos> in <en> him. <autos>

If there is any conditional element of this word is it is based on the need that one must have "faith" to be made righteous.

For "in Him" we have no sin, and we cannot sin.

...Legally speaking.

The blood of Christ keeps us legally righteous and blameless before God in heaven. Meanwhile, the Spirit of God is working in us an ever-increasing behavioral righteousness here on earth (2 Peter 1:8 NASB).

Anyone who thinks the righteousness of Christ by faith means literally being perfectly righteous here on earth...well,...this is what John says about that:

"8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. " (1 John 1:8 NASB)

Like I have said before Jethro, the conflict is in your lack of understanding, not in the scriptures for as John also wrote In Him we have no sin and we cannot sin. So I will try to help you understand, Of myself and in the flesh I am the worst of sinners, "nothing good lives in me". In the Spirit I am born of God and In Gods righteousness I am sinless and without blame. Now the whole of the New Testament is to bring us from the flesh, "to crucify the flesh" and live in the Spirit, John is teaching the same thing Paul taught only showing it in a different way.

It's funny how he gives several scriptures to validate what he is saying, and all you can say is he doesn't understand?

Amazing!

 

[JLB]

This would mean that you yourself personally know all the Greek scholars that have ever read this passage.

Not!!

Yes JLB, its called study of the Bible and to know the related issues as it relates to the scriptures, I suggest that you should spend some time in this sort of study into the Greek and the view of the scholars, as to what is proven and evident. There is no debate about this scripture and your point is just vain and has no bearing on the truth of Gods Righteousness.

I quote many scriptures that teach us that righteousness is of faith.

He takes us from faith to faith.

Faith is the evidence of things NOT SEEN.

Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR.

Faith is not the reality of the thing hoped for.

The righteousness that is of faith, is the righteousness that is hoped for.

The full reality of the righteousness that Jesus Christ walked in on this earth, is what we are hoping to be conformed to.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...but a believer is not judged by the law of Moses.

"9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. " (James 2:9 NASB)

Our Law is the "royal law" love and that is the Commandment of Christ.

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” (Leviticus 19:18) you are doing right." (James 2:8 NASB)

And yet I am to never consult the law to know what I'm supposed to be doing by the Spirit. Hmm.

In love ALL the law is fulfilled. ALL is the issue when we consider legalist always "break" the law into parts and are always in transgression of the law, but through the Spirit and Love we are able to keep it all, not by the "letter" but by the Spirit.

How's your Sabbath observance going, George?

Certainly you have not broken up the law that is kept by faith into, say, ceremonial and moral, right?

So not by looking to rules, but by living a life of faith and love from the heart, as the Spirit gives us the ability.

Why isn't it considered 'looking to the law' when James and others cite specific laws for us to follow? Why doesn't that make them cursed legalists, but if I do that I am?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...Legally speaking.

The blood of Christ keeps us legally righteous and blameless before God in heaven. Meanwhile, the Spirit of God is working in us an ever-increasing behavioral righteousness here on earth (2 Peter 1:8 NASB).

Anyone who thinks the righteousness of Christ by faith means literally being perfectly righteous here on earth...well,...this is what John says about that:

"8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. " (1 John 1:8 NASB)

Like I have said before Jethro, the conflict is in your lack of understanding, not in the scriptures for as John also wrote In Him we have no sin and we cannot sin. So I will try to help you understand, Of myself and in the flesh I am the worst of sinners, "nothing good lives in me". In the Spirit I am born of God and In Gods righteousness I am sinless and without blame. Now the whole of the New Testament is to bring us from the flesh, "to crucify the flesh" and live in the Spirit, John is teaching the same thing Paul taught only showing it in a different way.

It's funny how he gives several scriptures to validate what he is saying, and all you can say is he doesn't understand?

Amazing!

It is amazing. Thus the nature of the blinders analogy. They keep one from only seeing what they set in front of them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We talk of power over sin and how we are righteous yet the squabbles continue and the Pharisee side of us jumps out. What a shame we will not see ourselves ...... Praise the Lord for His Grace

The Pharisees did not respond to Jesus' rebuke. I guess we should not expect more from mere mortals.

 

[TOG]

You mean keeping God's commandments doesn't always mean someone is trying to be justified by that effort? And that faith working through love IS keeping God's commandments?

Are you sure?

Yes, that's pretty much what I was thinking.

The TOG
​

 

[TOG]

No one walking in the Spirit will intentionally break any commandment of God

It would seem we agree again. But considering our differences in another thread, I feel compelled to ask you - Do you really mean any commandment? Would that include this one?

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. (Ex. 20:8-10 ESV)
​

That's one of the Ten Commandments. Are you saying that no one walking in the Spirit will intentionally violate the Sabbath commandment?

The TOG
​

 

[George Muller]

No one walking in the Spirit will intentionally break any commandment of God

It would seem we agree again. But considering our differences in another thread, I feel compelled to ask you - Do you really mean any commandment? Would that include this one?

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. (Ex. 20:8-10 ESV)
​

That's one of the Ten Commandments. Are you saying that no one walking in the Spirit will intentionally violate the Sabbath commandment?

The TOG
​

First lets establish that I did not write that "love" fulfills ALL the law, God had that wrote and it is true whether some have come to understand how love fulfills ALL the law or not. I have and do understand that Gods Rest "the true Sabbath" is fulfilled in that we cease from our "own works" and have entered into the love and rest of Gods Spirit. This is the fulfillment of that which was commanded in the law. (for the law is spiritual-it is fulfilled in the Spirit of God)

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: (the law is not of faith)
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 ¶ Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Unbelief is the opposite of "rest" when we walk in Gods love we are in His rest.)

Now again I say that Gods Word declares in clear and evident and absolute terms that "love" fulfills all the law, so one must accept the truth of scripture and enter into this rest, by FAITH not by mans understanding, not by being able to figure it all out but by trusting that Gods Word will prove itself true. Now I understand, because I trusted the Word, I cannot "make" others trust the Word of God, they must enter into the rest of God for themselves.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have and do understand that Gods Rest "the true Sabbath" is fulfilled in that we cease from our "own works" and have entered into the love and rest of Gods Spirit. This is the fulfillment of that which was commanded in the law. (for the law is spiritual-it is fulfilled in the Spirit of God)

But because I said this I have been repeatedly beat up and accused of improperly breaking the law up into parts by you and that 'other' fellow Mitspa.

 

[JLB]

No one walking in the Spirit will intentionally break any commandment of God

It would seem we agree again. But considering our differences in another thread, I feel compelled to ask you - Do you really mean any commandment? Would that include this one?

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. (Ex. 20:8-10 ESV)
​

That's one of the Ten Commandments. Are you saying that no one walking in the Spirit will intentionally violate the Sabbath commandment?

The TOG
​

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

 

[George Muller]

...Legally speaking.

The blood of Christ keeps us legally righteous and blameless before God in heaven. Meanwhile, the Spirit of God is working in us an ever-increasing behavioral righteousness here on earth (2 Peter 1:8 NASB).

Anyone who thinks the righteousness of Christ by faith means literally being perfectly righteous here on earth...well,...this is what John says about that:

"8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. " (1 John 1:8 NASB)

Like I have said before Jethro, the conflict is in your lack of understanding, not in the scriptures for as John also wrote In Him we have no sin and we cannot sin. So I will try to help you understand, Of myself and in the flesh I am the worst of sinners, "nothing good lives in me". In the Spirit I am born of God and In Gods righteousness I am sinless and without blame. Now the whole of the New Testament is to bring us from the flesh, "to crucify the flesh" and live in the Spirit, John is teaching the same thing Paul taught only showing it in a different way.

It's funny how he gives several scriptures to validate what he is saying, and all you can say is he doesn't understand?

Amazing!

Well of course I am trying to explain the truth of the gospel, and it is understood by the witness of the scriptures, not one scripture out of context but "line upon line-precept upon precept" And God is my witness that I spend this effort and time at each point of truth because I have the love of God for you guys, and I desire that you would know the peace of Gods righteousness and blessedness of His grace. Now my heart is open and I desire to speak and relate in the humble terms that fellow brothers and Christians should use, but the Spirit of God is upon me, and He resist the proud and gives grace to the humble. So as Paul wrote should I come in the Spirit of meekness or with a rod, I desire to walk in meekness but I do not walk as man according to my own will, but I walk in the Spirit according to His will. So reap what you sow, and know that God is not mocked and you speak to a true minister of Jesus Christ, and any judgment that is brought upon you is a result of your own evil intentions and the wicked and religious spirits that have seduced you.

 

[George Muller]

I have and do understand that Gods Rest "the true Sabbath" is fulfilled in that we cease from our "own works" and have entered into the love and rest of Gods Spirit. This is the fulfillment of that which was commanded in the law. (for the law is spiritual-it is fulfilled in the Spirit of God)

But because I said this I have been repeatedly beat up and accused of improperly breaking the law up into parts by you and that 'other' fellow Mitspa.

Yes you sometimes say the biblically correct thing, but saying the biblically correct thing and then presenting it surrounded with error is still error. Lots of people use parts of the truth to promote a lie. Now what is the effect of the Spirit of God being the fulfillment of what is written in the law? That as scriptures prove that it is obedience from the heart (faith working by love) not obedience to the "letter" that is what God desires. The "letter" kills- legalism in any form is death, "liberty" to love and walk in faith and love is life, peace and joy. Now these are the true Sons of God, those who are led by the Spirit and not the letter.

 

[TOG]

First lets establish that I did not write that "love" fulfills ALL the law

I didn't say you did. What you wrote was:

No one walking in the Spirit will intentionally break any commandment of God

And what I asked was whether "any commandment" included the Sabbath command as it is in the Ten Commandments:

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. (Ex. 20:8-10 ESV)
​

You didn't actually answer that question, so let me ask it again. When you say that "no one walking by the Spirit will intentionally break any commandment of God", Does that mean that they will not intentionally do any work on the seventh day, nor ask their children or servants or others to do so?

The TOG
​

 

[TOG]

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Thank you for that verse. I try not to let others judge me for keeping the Sabbath. I leave that up to God. But some people, both here and those I know in real life, seem determined to judge me for my obedience to God's word.

The TOG
​

 

[George Muller]

First lets establish that I did not write that "love" fulfills ALL the law

I didn't say you did. What you wrote was:

No one walking in the Spirit will intentionally break any commandment of God

And what I asked was whether "any commandment" included the Sabbath command as it is in the Ten Commandments:

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. (Ex. 20:8-10 ESV)
​

You didn't actually answer that question, so let me ask it again. When you say that "no one walking by the Spirit will intentionally break any commandment of God", Does that mean that they will not intentionally do any work on the seventh day, nor ask their children or servants or others to do so?

The TOG
​

Well TOG I know you can see the example of circumcision? That according to the written code, that it is a physical act, but in truth that commandment was but a "picture' a "type" of that which was to come 'in the Spirit' The 'sabbath' is fulfilled just as I showed you, when we have entered into the rest of God, that is the true Sabbath and the written code was a "type-shadow" just as one can see in circumcision. So yes "love" fulfills ALL- Consider this scripture; for God would have me to ask you to meditate upon its true meaning;

1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Here is your "rest" my friend- enter into it by faith

 

[Elijah674]

I rest the Lords case!

It seems that many are clinging to the J.W. tail.

--Elijah

 

[TOG]

Well TOG I know you can see the example of circumcision? That according to the written code, that it is a physical act, but in truth that commandment was but a "picture' a "type" of that which was to come 'in the Spirit' The 'sabbath' is fulfilled just as I showed you, when we have entered into the rest of God, that is the true Sabbath and the written code was a "type-shadow" just as one can see in circumcision. So yes "love" fulfills ALL- Consider this scripture; for God would have me to ask you to meditate upon its true meaning; 1Jo 4:17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19 We love him, because he first loved us. Here is your "rest" my friend- enter into it by faith

Thank you. I will meditate on that verse. But you still haven't answered my question. Will a person who is walking according to the Spirit refrain from working on the seventh day and from asking others to do so?

The TOG
​

 

[reba]

Causing the strange in the gates to work on the Sabbath?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...Legally speaking.

The blood of Christ keeps us legally righteous and blameless before God in heaven. Meanwhile, the Spirit of God is working in us an ever-increasing behavioral righteousness here on earth (2 Peter 1:8 NASB).

Anyone who thinks the righteousness of Christ by faith means literally being perfectly righteous here on earth...well,...this is what John says about that:

"8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. " (1 John 1:8 NASB)

Like I have said before Jethro, the conflict is in your lack of understanding, not in the scriptures for as John also wrote In Him we have no sin and we cannot sin. So I will try to help you understand, Of myself and in the flesh I am the worst of sinners, "nothing good lives in me". In the Spirit I am born of God and In Gods righteousness I am sinless and without blame. Now the whole of the New Testament is to bring us from the flesh, "to crucify the flesh" and live in the Spirit, John is teaching the same thing Paul taught only showing it in a different way.

It's funny how he gives several scriptures to validate what he is saying, and all you can say is he doesn't understand?

Amazing!

Well of course I am trying to explain the truth of the gospel, and it is understood by the witness of the scriptures, not one scripture out of context but "line upon line-precept upon precept"

Except the scriptures we use.

And God is my witness that I spend this effort and time at each point of truth because I have the love of God for you guys, and I desire that you would know the peace of Gods righteousness and blessedness of His grace. Now my heart is open and I desire to speak and relate in the humble terms that fellow brothers and Christians should use...

"...let us not love with words or speech but with actions..." (1 John 3:18 NASB)

Don't just say you have it. SHOW us this love you say you have by treating us nicely, and being humble.

...but the Spirit of God is upon me, and He resist the proud and gives grace to the humble. So as Paul wrote should I come in the Spirit of meekness or with a rod...

The TOS says you have to do it in meekness.

...I desire to walk in meekness but I do not walk as man according to my own will, but I walk in the Spirit according to His will.

This is what it means to walk in the Spirit:

"22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other." (Galatians 5: NASB)

This truth is what opened my eyes up to the errors of the charismatic movements. They measure their relationship with God by their knowledge and their giftedness. But the Bible says character is how you measure your growth and stature in Christ. I think all denoms make this mistake, but none quite as badly as the charismatic movements do.

15 “Watch out for false prophets.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them.

(Matthew 7:15,16 NASB)

So reap what you sow, and know that God is not mocked and you speak to a true minister of Jesus Christ, and any judgment that is brought upon you is a result of your own evil intentions and the wicked and religious spirits that have seduced you.

"...Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment..." (Romans 12:3 NASB)