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Power over sin by the Spirit of Grace

  • Thread starter Thread starter George Muller
  • Start date Start date
Again your looking past the point I have tried to make, The Sabbath is not a "day" as in a 24 hour day, it is the "eternal day of rest"

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. (Ex. 20:8-10)

Work for six days and rest on the seventh. Sounds like a week to me. Last time I checked, a week was made up of seven days, each being 24 hours in duration. But if you have a hard time understanding the plain meaning of these words, let's try something else.
And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these:... And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you. (Lev. 11:1-4, 7-8)
When you say that "no one walking in the Spirit will intentionally break any commandment of God", does that mean that a believer walking by the Spirit will avoid eating pork?
The TOG
I see you have no desire to discuss this in a honest way and consider the truth of the New Testament, Love fulfills all the law-period if a believer walks in the Love of God they are keeping the Sabbath, whether you can accept that or not, makes no difference, God has declared it.
Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


Ga 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.:-)

Still no answer...
No answer to what? The Sabbath is not a temporal day, it is the eternal rest of God. Those under the law are under its curse and have no rest nor are they accepted before the Lord. So not sure what you are looking for, you seem to lack even the basic biblical understanding to understand the difference between the OLD and NEW Covenants?

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
 
But the Spirit working love in a person's life doesn't justify either, George. So what's your point about judging people who know what the law says and then seek to uphold it by the Spirit of God working in their lives to bring them to that obedience?


Of course it is the Spirit of God that justifies.

Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Are you so desperate to make a point against me, that you are willing to leave all truth of scripture to do so? :shame
 
The problem we non literal ceremonial law keepers have...

Just when I thought I had you figured out, you say this. What exactly is a "non literal ceremonial law keeper"?
The TOG
What I mean is just what George is telling you (what I taught him).

All commandments are satisfied when we have faith and are careful to love others (do them no harm--Romans 13:10). The requirements of some commandments are literally satisfied by our faith working through love. While the requirements of other commandments are satisfied by our faith working through love, but not according to their literal Mosaic fulfillment, but fulfilled nevertheless--to God's complete and total satisfaction.

Circumcision and animal sacrifice for sin are good examples of that. They get fulfilled through faith in Christ, but fulfilled in the non-literal way God intended all along. Circumcision of the heart, and Christ's sacrifice for sin (not an animal) being the true, what we call 'spiritual' fulfillment of those two examples.

But don't worry. I'm still your friend. I don't bludgeon literal ceremonial law keepers with lengthy treatises, done in love of course, about how their law keeping means they're trying to be justified by works and not faith. I don't know that. I can't know that unless you came right out and told me you are doing it to earn your justification before God. So I do what Paul said and don't judge others according to Holy Days, Festivals, New Moons, etc. Nor do I let others judge me according to those.

But that was the ceremonial laws! Not the 7th day Sabbath that we will be keeping for all of eternity.
Isa. 66 (with even days being separated)

[22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and [[[from one sabbath to another]]], shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
How can this be literal since there is no light of the sun to mark off Sabbath's, and New Moon's, etc.?



And here I had thought that you finally were convicted of this?

--Elijah
No, sorry. Not one iota of conviction, yet. But I totally respect your conviction to do so. Totally. We can still be friends, right?

What I have become convinced of is Christian law keepers aren't doing that because they hate Jesus Christ and the gospel. So who am I to judge them as being 'anti-christ' and opposed to the sacrifice of Christ for justification? God will do that judging, not me.

"6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God." (Romans 14:6 NIV)

Who am I to decide who is worshiping with a correct heart, and who is not, based solely on how, and through what, they're worshiping? That's why we need to leave each other alone about this.
 
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What I mean is just what George is telling you (what I taught him).
:toofunny

Come on Jethro, you "taught" me? No, I have not learned any sound doctrine from you, but only have learned how to defeat the spirit of error, and in that respect I have learned from our discussions.
 
But the Spirit working love in a person's life doesn't justify either, George. So what's your point about judging people who know what the law says and then seek to uphold it by the Spirit of God working in their lives to bring them to that obedience?


Of course it is the Spirit of God that justifies.

Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Are you so desperate to make a point against me, that you are willing to leave all truth of scripture to do so? :shame
..whatever that means.

I don't think you realize that that neither obedience by written words, nor obedience by the Spirit without the illumination of written words justifies.

You have a twisted doctrine that says just reading the Bible and then seeking to obey it equates to legalistically trying to justify yourself through the effort, and that somehow life by the Spirit is some kind of automatic thing that happens apart from any input from you, or else it's a fleshly effort of trying to justify oneself. That's completely unscriptural. Remember, I know about these doctrines. I come from the charismatic movement.
 
What I mean is just what George is telling you (what I taught him).
:toofunny

Come on Jethro, you "taught" me? No, I have not learned any sound doctrine from you, but only have learned how to defeat the spirit of error, and in that respect I have learned from our discussions.
I wanted you to see what it's like to get a dose of your own condescending treatment. Not much fun, is it?

Your reaction reminds me of this:

"“You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!”" (John 9:34 NIV)
 
What I mean is just what George is telling you (what I taught him).
:toofunny

Come on Jethro, you "taught" me? No, I have not learned any sound doctrine from you, but only have learned how to defeat the spirit of error, and in that respect I have learned from our discussions.
I wanted you to see what it's like to get a dose of your own condescending treatment. Not much fun, is it?

Your reaction reminds me of this:

"“You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!”" (John 9:34 NIV)
Maybe you do not understand that those who made this charge where the enemies of Christ, and this charge was made against the work of His grace and righteousness in a that He had healed this man and made him whole.

Joh 9:34 They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35 ¶ Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
39 ¶ And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say,
We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Of course I was born a "sinner" and admit that "nothing good lives in my flesh" you see that's the difference between those who understand the righteousness of faith and those who go about to establish their own by the law.
But I am not in the flesh I am a in the Spirit and have been crucified with Christ.

1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.:wave
 
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But the Spirit working love in a person's life doesn't justify either, George. So what's your point about judging people who know what the law says and then seek to uphold it by the Spirit of God working in their lives to bring them to that obedience?


Of course it is the Spirit of God that justifies.

Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Are you so desperate to make a point against me, that you are willing to leave all truth of scripture to do so? :shame
..whatever that means.

I don't think you realize that that neither obedience by written words, nor obedience by the Spirit without the illumination of written words justifies.

You have a twisted doctrine that says just reading the Bible and then seeking to obey it equates to legalistically trying to justify yourself through the effort, and that somehow life by the Spirit is some kind of automatic thing that happens apart from any input from you, or else it's a fleshly effort of trying to justify oneself. That's completely unscriptural. Remember, I know about these doctrines. I come from the charismatic movement.
It means what it says, a believer is justified by the Spirit of God.
 
What I mean is just what George is telling you (what I taught him).

All commandments are satisfied when we have faith and are careful to love others (do them no harm--Romans 13:10). The requirements of some commandments are literally satisfied by our faith working through love. While the requirements of other commandments are satisfied by our faith working through love, but not according to their literal Mosaic fulfillment, but fulfilled nevertheless--to God's complete and total satisfaction.

Circumcision and animal sacrifice for sin are good examples of that. They get fulfilled through faith in Christ, but fulfilled in the non-literal way God intended all along. Circumcision of the heart, and Christ's sacrifice for sin (not an animal) being the true, what we call 'spiritual' fulfillment of those two examples.

But don't worry. I'm still your friend. I don't bludgeon literal ceremonial law keepers with lengthy treatises, done in love of course, about how their law keeping means they're trying to be justified by works and not faith. I don't know that. I can't know that unless you came right out and told me you are doing it to earn your justification before God. So I do what Paul said and don't judge others according to Holy Days, Festivals, New Moons, etc. Nor do I let others judge me according to those.

But that was the ceremonial laws! Not the 7th day Sabbath that we will be keeping for all of eternity.
Isa. 66 (with even days being separated)

[22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and [[[from one sabbath to another]]], shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
How can this be literal since there is no light of the sun to mark off Sabbath's, and New Moon's, etc.?



And here I had thought that you finally were convicted of this?

--Elijah
No, sorry. Not one iota of conviction, yet. But I totally respect your conviction to do so. Totally. We can still be friends, right?

What I have become convinced of is Christian law keepers aren't doing that because they hate Jesus Christ and the gospel. So who am I to judge them as being 'anti-christ' and opposed to the sacrifice of Christ for justification? God will do that judging, not me.

"6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God." (Romans 14:6 NIV)

Who am I to decide who is worshiping with a correct heart, and who is not, based solely on how, and through what, they're worshiping? That's why we need to leave each other alone about this.

Again: A new heaven & new earth surely has a sun??

--Elijah

PS: And what does eating meat have to do with Seventh Day Worship????
 
Again your looking past the point I have tried to make, The Sabbath is not a "day" as in a 24 hour day, it is the "eternal day of rest"

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. (Ex. 20:8-10)

Work for six days and rest on the seventh. Sounds like a week to me. Last time I checked, a week was made up of seven days, each being 24 hours in duration. But if you have a hard time understanding the plain meaning of these words, let's try something else.
And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these:... And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you. (Lev. 11:1-4, 7-8)
When you say that "no one walking in the Spirit will intentionally break any commandment of God", does that mean that a believer walking by the Spirit will avoid eating pork?
The TOG
I see you have no desire to discuss this in a honest way and consider the truth of the New Testament, Love fulfills all the law-period if a believer walks in the Love of God they are keeping the Sabbath, whether you can accept that or not, makes no difference, God has declared it.
Ro 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


Ga 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.:-)

Still no answer...

Get used to it.
 
What I mean is just what George is telling you (what I taught him).

Maybe you should also try to teach him how to say it. It sounds completely different the way you put it (although I still don't agree completely).

All commandments are satisfied when we have faith and are careful to love others (do them no harm--Romans 13:10). The requirements of some commandments are literally satisfied by our faith working through love. While the requirements of other commandments are satisfied by our faith working through love, but not according to their literal Mosaic fulfillment, but fulfilled nevertheless--to God's complete and total satisfaction.

Here is one place we don't completely agree. Perhaps it is because we view the law and its purpose differently, so let me explain my view of the law and why it was given.

When God created us, He intended for us to be His image in this world (Gen. 1:26). When our first parents sinned, that image was tarnished. As sin increased, it became more tarnished until it was barely visible. Then God chose Abraham and his descendants to be a light to the nations (Is. 42:6, 49:6) and show His image to the rest of the world. He gave them His law to show them how to be that light.
See, I have taught you statutes and rules, as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do them in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. Keep them and do them, for that will be your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples, who, when they hear all these statutes, will say, ‘Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.’ For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as the Lord our God is to us, whenever we call upon him? And what great nation is there, that has statutes and rules so righteous as all this law that I set before you today? (Deu. 4:5-8 ESV)
When people saw Israel keeping the law, they were to see God's image through them. Over time though, religious leaders interpreted, added to, took away from and modified the law, until God's image was again barely visible. Then Jesus came and gave us the correct understanding and interpretation of the law. He showed us how to be a light to the world.
You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. (Matt. 5:14-16 ESV)
We are to do our good works so that others can see them and see the image of God through us. But what works is he talking about? The same ones he continues talking about in the very next verse.
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:17-19 ESV)
It can't be much clearer than that. Since heaven and earth are still both here, then not one jot or tittle has passed from the law. Note also what Jesus says to those who teach against the law and those who teach people to follow it.

The law was never meant to save or justify us. It was meant to show us how to live so that we would reflect God's image and be a light to the world. But that wasn't its only reason. In the verse I quoted above, it says "for that will be your wisdom and your understanding". One of the first things God said to Joshua after he took over from Moses was concerning the law.
This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success. (Josh. 1:8 ESV)
Keeping the law will bring us wisdom, prosperity and success, as well as a host of other blessings which we can read about in Deuteronomy 28. But when we ignore the law, it does not bring us those same blessings, and what is worse, the world doesn't see the image of God through us.
The TOG
 
But the Spirit working love in a person's life doesn't justify either, George. So what's your point about judging people who know what the law says and then seek to uphold it by the Spirit of God working in their lives to bring them to that obedience?


Of course it is the Spirit of God that justifies.

Ro 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost

1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Are you so desperate to make a point against me, that you are willing to leave all truth of scripture to do so? :shame
..whatever that means.

I don't think you realize that that neither obedience by written words, nor obedience by the Spirit without the illumination of written words justifies.

You have a twisted doctrine that says just reading the Bible and then seeking to obey it equates to legalistically trying to justify yourself through the effort, and that somehow life by the Spirit is some kind of automatic thing that happens apart from any input from you, or else it's a fleshly effort of trying to justify oneself. That's completely unscriptural. Remember, I know about these doctrines. I come from the charismatic movement.
It means what it says, a believer is justified by the Spirit of God.
Your doctrine puts obedience by the Spirit (as you define that--obedience apart from reading what the Bible says to do) as the factor that so pleases God, not knowing that it is trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins that justifies and which pleases God in that regard.

'Spiritual' obedience as you define that does not justify either, but you boast as if it does, while you blast the law keepers and the Bible readers for their carnal (having to read the Word) obedience because it does not justify. Well, neither does the obedience you're ranting about!
 
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Thank you for that verse. I try not to let others judge me for keeping the Sabbath. I leave that up to God. But some people, both here and those I know in real life, seem determined to judge me for my obedience to God's word.
The TOG

By God's word do you mean -

8 Six days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a sacred assembly to the Lord your God. You shall do no work on it. Deuteronomy 16:8

Do you eat any leavened bread during the week of unleavened bread?


JLB
 
Elijah it will have the SON

OK!;) (just for you) We will have country homes to live in. Then on the Seventh Day Sabbath will come for worship, and where there is NO NEED of the sun, for God will be LIGHT enough! Rev. 22:5

And where are we at the other six days? Isa. 65 tells us that also...

[17] For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
[18] But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
[19] And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
[20] There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
[21] And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
[22] They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

[23] They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
[24] And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
[25] The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

--Elijah
 
..whatever that means.

I don't think you realize that that neither obedience by written words, nor obedience by the Spirit without the illumination of written words justifies.

You have a twisted doctrine that says just reading the Bible and then seeking to obey it equates to legalistically trying to justify yourself through the effort, and that somehow life by the Spirit is some kind of automatic thing that happens apart from any input from you, or else it's a fleshly effort of trying to justify oneself. That's completely unscriptural. Remember, I know about these doctrines. I come from the charismatic movement.
It means what it says, a believer is justified by the Spirit of God.
Your doctrine puts obedience by the Spirit (as you define that--obedience apart from reading what the Bible says to do) as the factor that so pleases God, not knowing that it is trust in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins that justifies and which pleases God in that regard.

'Spiritual' obedience as you define that does not justify either, but you boast as if it does, while you blast the law keepers and the Bible readers for their carnal (having to read the Word) obedience because it does not justify. Well, neither does the obedience you're ranting about!
The Word of God is Spirit and truth, it is obeyed by faith and love, not the "letter" not legalism. So only in your mind are the Spirit and the Word of God not in agreement, for it is the Word that renews our mind into the truth of the Spirit. Not legalism, for legalism is not obedience.
 
Causing the strange in the gates to work on the Sabbath?
Does this mean I don't have to..........nevermind.

Today's the Sabbath. I think she's implying that we're making her work as a moderator. She would have a point, except...


  1. She's not a stranger (at least, she's no stranger than I am)
  2. She's not within my gates. Or... (TOG looks around suspiciously)... No... She's not within my gates.
  3. Moderation isn't work, it's... er... uh... moderation. It's like being a... um... peacemaker... yes, that's it. She's a peacemaker, just like Jesus told us to be.

All kidding aside, maybe she really does have a point.
The TOG


Because she is a Gentile not living in Israel.


JLB
 
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Thank you for that verse. I try not to let others judge me for keeping the Sabbath. I leave that up to God. But some people, both here and those I know in real life, seem determined to judge me for my obedience to God's word.
The TOG

By God's word do you mean -

8 Six days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a sacred assembly to the Lord your God. You shall do no work on it. Deuteronomy 16:8

Do you eat any leavened bread during the week of unleavened bread?


JLB
Funny how these guys who "claim" to keep the law are always making up reasons why they don't keep "ALL" of it. When the Lord said "EVERY JOT AND TITTLE" and Paul wrote "ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW".

See it is just as Paul said those who desire to be teachers of the law, know not what they are trying to affirm. No one can "break" the law into parts and keep it, it is a complete whole and only those who teach grace, uphold its true unbending standard. "WE" as Paul wrote, uphold the law!
 
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