Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[JLB]

Be careful what kind of Perfect you mouth to the devil. Those words you speak may not be your own.

There is only ONE PERFECT. Never another 'created thing.' God is NOT A THING that we can equate to in 'creation.'

Perfect is the territory of only ONE. Our Maker, The Creator. HE Alone is Perfect.

So you are teaching that the perfect God created Lucifer to be evil and sin?

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Ezekiel 28:12-15

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,


From the day you were created.


JLB

 

[smaller]

So you are teaching that the perfect God created Lucifer to be evil and sin?

God Alone created "all things." To step outside of this is to leap headlong into polytheism and multiple creators. Scripture is abundantly clear that God created "all things." There are no exceptions.

Edited

 

[JLB]

God Alone created "all things." To step outside of this is to leap headlong into polytheism and multiple creators. Scripture is abundantly clear that God created "all things." There are no exceptions.

To equate Lucifer to GOD PERFECT is a lie of the devil.

God created Lucifer perfect in his ways.

Youv'e tried to add to the word of God, and change the wording, but it just isn't going to work.

Lucifer was created by God perfect in his ways.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Ezekiel 28:12-15

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,


From the day you were created.


JLB

 

[smaller]

God created Lucifer perfect in his ways.

Youv'e tried to add to the word of God, and change the wording, but it just isn't going to work.

I have a very simple question for you. Was Lucifer as Perfect as God?

If you say NO, then we are obviously dealing with a much lesser form of perfect. Perfect in the "created" sense of the term, not in the God Perfect sense of Perfect.

And since then this would be a very obvious "LESSER PERFECT" we observe the fact that Lucifer was "created" by God/Perfect, to be A PERFECT DEVIL, "in his ways."

A "created perfect EVIL" would be an appropriate application of the term. Perfect in SINNING would be another application. Perfect in stealing and lying would be another application of the term "IN THY WAYS."

But to claim any kind of equality of Lucifer perfect to God Perfect is a blatant theological violation that ZERO legitimate Bible students should take on. Qualify "perfect" as a created "thing" because that kind of "perfect" is a MUCH LESSER status than God Perfect.

Lucifer was created by God perfect in his ways.

God created all things. Lucifer was in fact "created" perfect "in thy ways." Which does not equate in ANY WAY to God/Perfect.


Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:

I the Lord do all these things.

God can "create" ANY THING and not be THAT THING. To equate God/Perfect to any "thing" is called pantheism. And to attribute "creation" to multiple creators is polytheism. These are pitfalls for believers to fall into. And some easily fall into these kinds of "mind traps."

 

[JLB]

I have a very simple question for you. Was Lucifer as Perfect as God?

If you say NO, then we are obviously dealing with a much lesser form of perfect. Perfect in the "created" sense of the term, not in the God Perfect sense of Perfect.

And since then this would be a very obvious "LESSER PERFECT" we observe the fact that Lucifer was "created" by God/Perfect, to be A PERFECT DEVIL, "in his ways."

A "created perfect EVIL" would be an appropriate application of the term. Perfect in SINNING would be another application. Perfect in stealing and lying would be another application of the term "IN THY WAYS."

But to claim any kind of equality of Lucifer perfect to God Perfect is a blatant theological violation that ZERO legitimate Bible students should take on. Qualify "perfect" as a created "thing" because that kind of "perfect" is a MUCH LESSER status than God Perfect.


God created all things. Lucifer was in fact "created" perfect "in thy ways." Which does not equate in ANY WAY to God/Perfect.


Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil:

I the Lord do all these things.

God can "create" ANY THING and not be THAT THING. To equate God/Perfect to any "thing" is called pantheism. And to attribute "creation" to multiple creators is polytheism. These are pitfalls for believers to fall into. And some easily fall into these kinds of "mind traps."

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
Ezekiel 28:14-16

From these passages we see that Lucifer was at one time perfect in his ways... UNTIL.

Lucifer sinned, and became Satan, The Enemy, and was cast out of heaven.

• God did not create Satan.
• Lucifer became Satan.
• Lucifer became filled with violence within...
• Lucifer was not created with violence within, but became filled with violence with by the abundance of his trading.

Do you deny that Lucifer was perfect in his ways at one time?


JLB

 

[Eugene]

.
Brethren, the thread is wandering from the Original Post (OP) so please address it in your posts.
I know it's easy to end up following bunny trails created by questions asked, and soon we're not
even addressing Pre-trib at all. Let's get back on track and play nice; a couple edits and
one deletion were made. Thanks.

 

[for_his_glory]

I appreciate believers attempts to excuse God's creation and uses of evil, but unfortunately for such views scripture tells us God created all things. Scripture also tells us God created evil and God uses evil, numerous times.

God's uses of retributory evil is a well documented fact throughout the scriptures. There is no legitimately avoiding those citings of facts. Theodicy is one of the toughest gigs of scripture to understand.

Joshua 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you.

Some heretics, such as Marcion, even went so far as to claim the God of the Old testament was not God, but the "demiurge." Another creator who was evil because these statements of fact are unavoidable in the O.T. And he denied the O.T. was the Word of God or was for believers.

Job found out this reality:

Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

I don't see any credible way to avoid seeing "all things" in creation as what God Himself has created, and this includes the creation and uses of the "power" of evil.

There you go again using one verse as Joshua 23:15 to support what you think. If you go back to vs. 11 you will see why evil comes to those who were once given the promise of God. Same with Job 2:10 you have to go back to vs. 1 to understand why Job spoke what he did in vs. 10. God does not create the evil, but brings wrath on the evil found in man through that of Satan working his evil through those that have fallen from the promises of God. This is why the beast, false prophet, Satan and all who have walked away from God will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[for_his_glory]

Sometimes it's good to stop at points of diversion rather than running further along trails that are apart from exchange at the points of diversions.


I think God sees that we have evil as an internal matter of fact. Paul saw the same fact for himself, Romans 7:21. So did the writer of Hebrews in Heb. 10:22. God isn't blind.



I'm personally not aware of anyone that has made themselves sinless.



Well, at least you arrived at the conclusion that we are tempted by a party that is not us. I consider temptations to be internal and of the tempter. Therefore the scriptural math indicates to me that scripture, when viewing "man" doesn't see "just man." Scripture sees [man and tempter] as man. Just as Jesus sees in Mark 4:15. Or as Paul sees in Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 or as John sees in 1 John 3:8.

IF we manage to see identically, as they saw, maybe we would see "man" and ourselves as scripture sees us?

No one can make themselves sinless and I never said they could of themselves, but to guard themselves from falling to the temptation to sin as Satan will always tempt us. I didn't just arrive at any conclusion for all of us know who the temper is, but it is only God who will allow him to tempt us like that of Job, Job 2:1-6, and the same with Jesus Matthew 4:1-11.

 

[smaller]

There you go again using one verse as Joshua 23:15 to support what you think.

There are many citings of Gods bringing retributive evil in the O.T. Think the flood, or S&G, or bringing enemies upon Israel, or destroying their temple, scattering the people. It's really quite hard to miss.

Are we going to say that 'end time' is going to be different? No. There is a 'trial' determined upon the "whole earth."

Rev. 3:
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

The same spoken of by the prophet, Isaiah, here:

Isaiah 28:22
Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.

If you go back to vs. 11 you will see why evil comes to those who were once given the promise of God. Same with Job 2:10 you have to go back to vs. 1 to understand why Job spoke what he did in vs. 10. God does not create the evil,

Gods uses of retributive evil are very well documented. It will remain pointless to point out the obvious if some can't see it, even though it's plain as day. Yes, God does unleash retributive evil. In many ways and by many forms. There is no credible way to isolate God from retributive evil.

Will God destroy the wicked? Will He use/employ evil, manifold unto same to do so? Undoubtedly. What "they" sow, God will multiply unto them, which is a promise of the Gospel. Sow to evil. Get a multifold return, from GOD.

but brings wrath on the evil found in man through that of Satan working his evil through those that have fallen from the promises of God. This is why the beast, false prophet, Satan and all who have walked away from God will be cast into the lake of fire.

There is also no question that God can direct Satan to bring evil. Again, to try to insulate God from this exercise is futile. Even Paul deployed Satan to destroy the flesh.

1 Corinthians 5:
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This "deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" is a part of the "end time" discourse, also. The works of Satan were found in ALL the churches of Rev. 2-3.

 

[smaller]

No one can make themselves sinless and I never said they could of themselves,

Brilliant and truthful deduction. WHEN we (may or may not) come to understand that 'sin IS of the devil', 1 John 3:8, we might understand our 'current status' in the flesh, with, as Paul noted for himself, "evil present" with him. Romans 7:21, 2 Cor. 12:7.

This, at the end, GOD HIMSELF will destroy from HIS OWN, from WITHIN, by His Revealing "in us." Phil. 3:21.

We are promised RIDDANCE of "dishonor" "corruption" "weakness" and our "natural body", 1 Cor. 15:42-47, to be replaced or more accurately, us completely INTO His Perfect Body.

End Time. Time will be no more. Who's time is it? The end of the devil's time on earth/in earth. The Angel, the messenger of God, will stand, one foot in the sea and one on land, and proclaim the end of time.

The sea is where the whore sits, the waters are PEOPLE.

The "dry ground" is where we stand. We are not in the sea of confusions, the sea of Babylon.

God bids all His people to COME OUT of HER.

 

[JLB]

There is also no question that God can direct Satan to bring evil. Again, to try to insulate God from this exercise is futile. Even Paul deployed Satan to destroy the flesh.

1 Corinthians 5:
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This "deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh" is a part of the "end time" discourse, also. The works of Satan were found in ALL the churches of Rev. 2-3.

You seem to keep missing the truth that we know Satan is evil.

We know all about the things coming upon the earth.

You keep saying God created Satan to sin.

That's just not true. God's word is true.

God created Lucifer perfect in all his ways.

God created Lucifer perfect in his ways, in which Lucifer was said to be "the seal of perfection".

“You were the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.


God's word is true.

You keep denying this over and over, because you believe there is no such thing as free will to choose good or evil.

And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15



JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Nowhere do we find any claim of scripture as "Holy Satan" or "Holy Lucifer." There was never any such thing in the scriptures. It's a freewill fairy tale that doesn't exist.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Satan was created as a holy angel until iniquity was found in him and then God cast him out of His Throne Room as now Satan has access to heaven and earth, but not the Throne Room of God, Job 2:1,2; Ezekiel 28:15-19.

 

[smaller]

You seem to keep missing the truth that we know Satan is evil.

I asked you a pertinent question to "end time." It was deleted.

Lucifer, Satan, the devil, will have an END of "his time." This is the end time account. And it's also why we examine these issues of our adversary from the scriptures.

But I'm not the moderator here. He knew exactly where I was headed.

 

[JLB]

Satan, the devil, will have an END of "his time."

Yes, he will be cast into hell along with his angels, and those who are aligned with him.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Satan was created as a holy angel until iniquity was found in him and then God cast him out of His Throne Room as now Satan has access to heaven and earth, but not the Throne Room of God, Job 2:1,2; Ezekiel 28:15-19.

Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Satan, Lucifer was NEVER Holy. And there is no such statement in the scriptures, saying this is or was the case, as at least a couple others have pointed out.

 

[JLB]

Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Satan, Lucifer was NEVER Holy. And there is no such statement in the scriptures, saying this is or was the case, as at least a couple others have pointed out.

Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Satan, Lucifer was NEVER Holy. And there is no such statement in the scriptures, saying this is or was the case, as at least a couple others have pointed out.

Is this verse of scripture true or false?

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,till iniquity was found in you. Ezekiel 28:15


JLB

 

[smaller]

Is this verse of scripture true or false?

You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,till iniquity was found in you. Ezekiel 28:15

JLB

Edited

2 Thess:
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

[1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?]

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

These are not accounts of some brick and mortar job in Israel.

This is about the "defiling" of the "natural flesh" BODY we currently have, by the mystery of iniquity, the working of evil therein, that works therein, DEFILING.

Matthew 15:
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Mark 7:
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Groan. God LISTENS for us to tell the TRUTH.

Psalm 102:
19 For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the Lord behold the earth;
20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;

 

[for_his_glory]

We do have evil present with us. And will have until AFTER the enemies, the devil and his messengers are destroyed, which will be during the Great Tribulation and, IF that time comes and we are still alive, we WILL be here during it, to experience these things.

you said: IF that time comes...................are you not sure it will?

How do you read Revelations, literal, spiritual or both and please leave out the discussion of the flesh as we need to stay on topic.

 

[for_his_glory]

I expect that every believer abides in this state of mind:

Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

We do this groaning because we are currently bound in a BODY OF death.

Romans 7:24
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

The "timing" of Permanent Change is NOT in our hands or our power. Phil. 3:21. Nor does any work "change" the body of death to make it NOT what it currently is, with sin indwelling it, evil present, and these workings factually against and contrary to the Spirit. These things will NOT be moving on when that Permanent Change Arrives.


No one cares to look at the truth of their own flesh. The flesh resists, actively, the LIGHT OF GOD shed upon it for what it is. Gal. 5:17.

We will have our change, if we have not already actually died, and this change comes while we are still standing in this body of death.

But this change will come with TEARS, when it comes.

Psalm 126:5
They that sow in tears shall reap in joy.

Isaiah 25:8
He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth:

for the Lord hath spoken it.

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

I asked that you would leave the subject of the flesh as that is another thread which many of us have replied to and stay on topic of the OP which is about pretrib, not the sins of the flesh so can you please answer my question which was.............do you believe Revelations is literal, spiritual, or both?

 

[for_his_glory]

Rev 14:11-20 is the precursor for the catching up of the saints (Rapture) that makes up the true body of Christ. This is separating the wheat from the tares or in other words saints from sinners as sinners being those who have taken the mark of the beast in Rev 13. Christ is sending the angels to separate the wheat from the tares to protect His own as they continue to witness Christ to those who will finally have ears to hear up to and during Gods seven vial judgments, Rev 15:1-8; 16:1-21.

After mystery Babylon is revealed and then destroyed, Rev Chapters 17, 18, heaven rejoices her destruction as the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. It is not until we read in Rev 19 of Christ second coming as we His Bride has prepared ourselves, those in the grave and we that are still alive to be caught up together to the clouds and given our new glorified bodies as we are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white then meet Christ in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, as we are then joined to our Groom (Jesus) for the marriage supper (union) of the Lamb and His Bride.