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Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

"God didn't create Satan."


God created Lucifer.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16 “By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore
I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
Ezekiel 28:14-16

From these passages we see that Lucifer was at one time perfect in his ways... UNTIL.

Lucifer sinned, and became Satan, The Enemy, and was cast out of heaven.

  • God did not create Satan.
  • Lucifer became Satan.
  • Lucifer became filled with violence within...
  • Lucifer was not created with violence within, but became filled with violence with by the abundance of his trading.

Do you deny that Lucifer was perfect in his ways at one time?



JLB
 
Believers are saints, that were sinners who were cleansed of their sins, and unrighteousness.

Believers are sinners just like everyone else. Romans 3:9, 1 Tim. 1:15
If a person is cleansed of all their unrighteousness, then why would they still be classified as a sinner.

IF we were Perfect we'd have no need of Gods Mercy and Grace expressed in Christ.

I have need of Gods Eternal Things, Mercy, Grace and His Love, and hope to have need for all of eternity.
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9
JLB

Such accounting does not extend to the sin indwelling our flesh and the evil present with us, which DOES remain, until our final death and passing out of the flesh, or HIS Return, to rid us of these pesky little present facts. Romans 7:17-21, 1 Cor. 15:42-47, Phil. 3:21, Col. 1:27

No, we are not currently big P Perfect in our present state. It might be nice to think so, but reality shows that not to be the case. I have no interests in delusions about our present life and am rather fond of scriptures depictions of our current set of 'hard facts.' Even if my flesh doesn't care to hear of it.

At least scripture is honest in it's conveyances. We do have evil present with us. And will have until AFTER the enemies, the devil and his messengers are destroyed, which will be during the Great Tribulation and, IF that time comes and we are still alive, we WILL be here during it, to experience these things.
 
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God created Lucifer.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;

Take a look at what the "covering cherub" does. IF you think any of this is "HOLY" I'll beg to differ:

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Holy? Hardly.
 
God created Lucifer.
  • God did not create Satan.
Do you deny that Lucifer was perfect in his ways at one time?

IF God created Lucifer Perfect and Holy, he'd still be that way. Fact is it never happened. God created Satan and "all things." There is no other God and no other "creator."

And no, Satan was not "the creator" of himself. There is only One Maker of all things in creation, and that is THE CREATOR. One.
 
IF God created Lucifer Perfect and Holy, he'd still be that way.


You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. Ezekiel 28:15

Lucifer was created perfect, and he continued to be perfect in his ways... UNTIL iniquity was found in him.


JLB
 
Take a look at what the "covering cherub" does. IF you think any of this is "HOLY" I'll beg to differ:

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Holy? Hardly.

You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Ezekiel 28:12-15


JLB
 
IF you think any of this is "HOLY" I'll beg to differ:


You added "holy" to the subject matter, just as the serpent added to God's word in the garden when he deceived Eve.

Lucifer was created perfect in his ways... until iniquity was found in him.


JLB
 
We were all born into this position:

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Colossians 2:13

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

And if we think it was just "me" an individual, think again:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

When we are "born again" we are "divided" from that working/WORKER in the flesh, but this adversity/adversary 'in the flesh' does not cease it's operations, which Paul shows us in his "post salvation state" in Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:15-25, Romans 8:3, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 Tim. 1:15, which flesh remains against and contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

Paul defined the sin that dwelt in his own flesh as "no more I" that do it. But he certainly did NOT claim that sin didn't do what it still does, specifically in Romans 7:15 & 19.

Nor did he claim to be "free" of temptations in his own flesh. Gal. 4:13-14.

Does 'the tempter' tempt in the flesh? Ask your own conscience. It will tell you the answer.

As to death, we are advised of our state, post salvation:

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

The "second death" has no power over us because we already bit the proverbial dust the moment Christ came into our hearts. The second death can not harm us because it can not harm Him and we are "in Him."

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

There different meanings to "dead". When we were dead to Go
Believers are sinners just like everyone else. Romans 3:9, 1 Tim. 1:15


IF we were Perfect we'd have no need of Gods Mercy and Grace expressed in Christ.

I have need of Gods Eternal Things, Mercy, Grace and His Love, and hope to have need for all of eternity.


Such accounting does not extend to the sin indwelling our flesh and the evil present with us, which DOES remain, until our final death and passing out of the flesh, or HIS Return, to rid us of these pesky little present facts. Romans 7:17-21, 1 Cor. 15:42-47, Phil. 3:21, Col. 1:27

No, we are not currently big P Perfect in our present state. It might be nice to think so, but reality shows that not to be the case. I have no interests in delusions about our present life and am rather fond of scriptures depictions of our current set of 'hard facts.' Even if my flesh doesn't care to hear of it.

At least scripture is honest in it's conveyances. We do have evil present with us. And will have until AFTER the enemies, the devil and his messengers are destroyed, which will be during the Great Tribulation and, IF that time comes and we are still alive, we WILL be here during it, to experience these things.

hello s
Never in any citing is either Satan or Lucifer shown as HOLY. IF you think this is so, then go find a citing to prove it. What you will find is nothing because there is nothing there to find that says so.

What scripture does tell us is that the covering cherub was created perfect in "all his ways." That does NOT mean HOLY by any stretch of the imagination. "In his ways" should tell us to read the fine print about "the devils ways." Yes, there is a perfect devil, by no means HOLY, but perfectly EVIL.

Don't mistake the word perfect as perfect without looking at what that perfect is.
Never in any citing is either Satan or Lucifer shown as HOLY. IF you think this is so, then go find a citing to prove it. What you will find is nothing because there is nothing there to find that says so.

What scripture does tell us is that the covering cherub was created perfect in "all his ways." That does NOT mean HOLY by any stretch of the imagination. "In his ways" should tell us to read the fine print about "the devils ways." Yes, there is a perfect devil, by no means HOLY, but perfectly EVIL.

Don't mistake the word perfect as perfect without looking at what that perfect is.
Never in any citing is either Satan or Lucifer shown as HOLY. IF you think this is so, then go find a citing to prove it. What you will find is nothing because there is nothing there to find that says so.

What scripture does tell us is that the covering cherub was created perfect in "all his ways." That does NOT mean HOLY by any stretch of the imagination. "In his ways" should tell us to read the fine print about "the devils ways." Yes, there is a perfect devil, by no means HOLY, but perfectly EVIL.

Don't mistake the word perfect as perfect without looking at what that perfect is.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

There is not scripture that states specifically that Lucifer was created holy, but in Ezekiel 28 it is stated in verse 14-15, " thou art the anointed cherub that covereth, I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." There are several things in these verses, but what we need to look at is: "thou wast upon the holy mountain of God." Are you saying that God can be in the presence of iniquity?
 
From these passages we see that Lucifer was at one time perfect in his ways... UNTIL.

Lucifer sinned, and became Satan, The Enemy, and was cast out of heaven.

Only God is good. Luke 18:19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

I take this to mean only God is good! I also think the angels have no righteous posterity. For example, Adam may not of sinned until the fall, but he would not of sinned if he had a righteous posterity. Obviously, Luke 18:19 even includes angels because they would not of sinned if otherwise.

God bless,
William
 
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you. Ezekiel 28:15
Lucifer was created perfect, and he continued to be perfect in his ways... UNTIL iniquity was found in him.
JLB

Jesus tells us how it is with the devil, Satan. There is zero questions about Satan's status, whether as Lucifer or the covering cherub or any other number of terms applied to that wicked one:

John 8:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Holy? Hardly.
 
Jesus tells us how it is with the devil, Satan. There is zero questions about Satan's status, whether as Lucifer or the covering cherub or any other number of terms applied to that wicked one:

John 8:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Holy? Hardly.

Nothing will change the truth that Lucifer was created by God as perfect.


Lucifer was perfect in his ways until he sinned.

Likewise those who sin are of the devil.

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

Satan is the enemy and is wicked.

Lucifer was created perfect.


You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Ezekiel 28:12-15

Lucifer was established by God on His holy mountain, till he was cast down from heaven because iniquity was found in him.

How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!

While he was perfect in his ways, he was in heaven with God, on His holy mountain.

There is no denying the truth of what the scriptures say.



JLB
 
"In your ways" qualifies and limits how whoever was "perfect", until their inequity was finally revealed.
Brilliant deduction.

Adverse spirits were made by God as a temporal power, hopefully soon to be discarded by God. We also know that these have influences over the flesh, speak from people, do all sorts of very odd things (which might include generating a lot of odd beliefs) in man, and are the sources of all wicked thoughts, because Satan and his family of devils are "moved" to resist/steal Gods Word and do so IN man. Mark 4:15, Romans 7:7-13. They also seek to "kill and destroy." Matthew 17:15, Luke 22:3.

By the Word of God it is both pointless and problematic to look at any person and just see a person, singular, because of the operations of these "foreign entities unseen" in the flesh. We also know that sin, including our own, is "of the devil." 1 John 3:8. And since we know that "evil" comes from within us, it is again pointless NOT to bring these operators into the equations because they are evil and are in "man." Paul identified the sin dwelling in his own flesh as "NO MORE I" twice in Romans 7. If not Paul, then WHO? We also know that sin is not "forensic" or "empirically" proven in the flesh by scientific method, THEREFORE it is an operation of the "spirit of disobedience." Eph. 2:2.

God/Christ never knew them. They are the (whatever they are, how do we describe an anti-Christ spirit as anything but anti whatever God in Christ is? That alone is difficult to comprehend) ones that Jesus "never knew."

Matthew 7:23

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

In reading the above, believers are for all intents and purposes, BLINDED by these same operators so a reader/believer can neither see nor hear nor comprehend the Word of God. How so? We know we all sin, we know sin is iniquity. Without seeing the other adverse evil entities, NO ONE would be saved because "all" work iniquity.

When Paul cast out devils, he himself did so even still having a "messenger of Satan" in his own flesh. 2 Cor. 12:7.

Were Jesus to have made his return, while Paul was still alive in the flesh, I am very certain that he would have LOVED to hear Jesus' Words, "depart from me ye that work iniquity" because that directive would NOT be spoken to him, but to the "messenger of Satan" in his own flesh.

Perspective is everything. When we hear, we hear ALL of Gods Words. Even the bad ones, and apply them "properly."

When Jesus returns in the account of Mattew 25, there are effectively only 2 parties involved. Sheep and goats. Every believer who reads Matt. 25 thinks they are only a "sheep." BUT, if they read "all of Gods Words" and APPLY THEM honestly, they will easily perceive that none of us always and only do sheep works. When we don't do sheep works, we are in fact doing the opposite, goat works. No one is "just, only and ever" a sheep. "NO MORE I" is also involved. Sin dwells in our flesh. Evil is present "with" the sheep. Romans 7:17-21.

There are only TWO parties disclosed in Matthew 25's account of sheep and goats. That would be man and DEVILS.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also
unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

This is Jesus, ridding MAN of foreign (evil) occupation/occupiers, in the flesh.


When blinded people read Matthew 25's account, they make/take NO account of the judgment of DEVILS. They just see people, even though the devil and his messengers are disclosed in the account itself.

Scriptural math always adds up much better, when ALL the parties are on the table to "see." And we apply every Word of God, personally as Jesus Purposed for us to do. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4. WHEN for example, we "hear" from Jesus that not one jot or tittle will pass away from the law, we should understand that the law is Divinely Purposefully against "the lawless ones" which include MORE than just man. The law is also written against every sinner. And the DEVIL (and his messengers) is beyond any doubt, A SINNER. 1 John 3:8.

The Law of God Stands AGAINST THEM, unto judgment and eternal damnation. Therefore the LAW is our friend in this regards.

Just as the law stands against sin and sinners, so did Jesus Stand, in His flesh while on earth, DIVIDING man from our enemies, unseen. What Jesus did in flesh on earth in "casting out" devils was a temporary work in behalf of temporary flesh. This is the "first work" of God, in the natural/fleshly sense, temporal. But there is a promise of the Gospel for the FINAL WORK in the Spiritual sense, OF Jesus Working in the total eradication of these unseen enemies, and that is what both Revelation and "end time" is really all about.

Prior to that ending of them however, things might get extremely interesting.

Revelation 12:12

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

If we study the Exodus, with the people of Israel engaged with Pharaoh, and Gods raising Pharaoh UP to resist them prior to Israel's dividing from Pharaoh/Egypt, this is actually also an "end time" external picture, in the natural, of what is going to happen at "thee end." The "enemies" are going to be provoked, to RISE UP and to RESIST and PURSUE. The Word led Israel, safely. But the same waters that parted for them, collapsed upon their enemies. That's how THE WORD operates.

Ezekiel 29:3
Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

I could go on, but if anyone ain't got the pictures yet, turn and look at your own flesh and figure out what's going on therein. It won't HURT YOU as Gods child to look upon the flesh, with an honest heart, which will SEE "evil present" with us. Romans 7:21.

The Great Waters, Gods Words, are meant to bring us our final division.

Phil. 3:21 is the Promised Land, The Body of Christ Himself, wherein there is NO foreign enemy occupation.

Israel in natural flesh had to take land that was still filled with enemies. This is a picture of NATURAL MAN in the flesh. Evil is present with us in the flesh, in the NATURAL man. That evil is our ENEMY.
 
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Nothing will change the truth that Lucifer was created by God as perfect.

When Jesus said that the devil "abode not in the truth" in John 8:44, that is a past tense term. The devil never was in truth, nor was the devil EVER Perfect except in every devilish sense of the term. Just as God created that devil to be.

What is even stranger is that Jesus spoke those Words to MAN because the "children of the devil" were in fact "in those men." Exactly as Mark 4:15 proposes. The religious people are always FIRST on the devils hit list, because he is prompted to steal and to resist every Word of God. 1 Cor. 15:56 shows us that the LAW itself LENDS power to sin, because THEY in man's flesh are BOUND by Gods Own Words to "resist" and "steal Word" and "sin" in the flesh.

God Himself has SET this enmity, by His Own Command:

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

This speaks of the enmity between them, spoken of as "seed" and Jesus, being The Seed spoken of above.

This "enmity" was placed by God Himself.

Enmity: "the state or feeling of being actively opposed or hostile to someone or something."


Here, Jesus Himself "REVEALS" this enmity, and where it transpires and HOW it transpires.

Mark 4:
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

There, is "evil present" IN man's flesh.
 
When Jesus said that the devil "abode not in the truth" in John 8:44, that is a past tense term. The devil never was in truth, nor was the devil EVER Perfect except in every devilish sense of the term. Just as God created that devil to be.

Yes, the devil was not in truth.


Lucifer, on the other hand was prefect in his ways, and was established by God on His holy mountain, with the rest of God's angels that He created.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Ezekiel 28:12-15

You just can't get around the truth.

Then Lucifer wanted to be as God and sit on His thrown.

Lucifer became the Enemy; Satan.

Satan was not created evil and corrupt, he became that way because of his desire to have a place that was for God alone.


JLB
 
When anyone handles the word, perfect, they should realize that there is only ONE PERFECT. That is God Alone. God/Perfect.

Was Satan, the devil, Lucifer or anyone or anything else in all creation equal to God Perfect? Never, other than God Himself in flesh.

Giving Lucifer or Satan or the devil that kind of perfect is an utter sham and a shame to anyone who equates the devil or Lucifer to PERFECT.

It's not only not true, but not even possible. I might even say it's a LIE of the devil to make that kind of claim.

That IS what the devil claims, that he is LIKE GOD, Perfect.

Isaiah 14:

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Be careful what kind of Perfect you mouth to the devil. Those words you speak may not be your own.


There is only ONE PERFECT. Never another 'created thing.' God is NOT A THING that we can equate to in 'creation.'

Perfect is the territory of only ONE. Our Maker, The Creator. HE Alone is Perfect.
 
"In your ways" qualifies and limits how whoever was "perfect", until their inequity was finally revealed.


Yeah right.

God somehow "overlooked" the fact that He created Lucifer with iniquity, because God couldn't see it in him at first.:eek2

Lucifer was created with free will to choose, just like us.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Ezekiel 28:12-15


JLB
 
Giving Lucifer or Satan or the devil that kind of perfect is an utter sham and a shame to anyone who equates the devil or Lucifer to PERFECT.


Teaching that God created Lucifer to sin and be evil is an abomination.

It contradicts the truth of His word.

“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
Ezekiel 28:12-15



JLB
 
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