Pre-trib Rapture is not scriptural

[smaller]

smaller, I can only pray that your eyes will be opened someday to know that we already have victory over this flesh as we no longer walk in the darkness of this flesh and mind the things of this wicked world as now we walk in the light of the Holy Spirit as we by faith in Christ Jesus have risen with Him already the day we were Spiritually born again and seek those things from above where Christ sits at the right hand of God as our mediator before Him.

I observe very closely, the "reality" of what the Apostles said. They did not claim what you claim. IF we want to read about their reality, listen to Romans 7:15 &17-21 & 25, 1 Cor. 15:42-47, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 5:17, 1 Tim. 1:15, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 3:8 and a myriad of similar citings of fact. Those are their statements of facts for themselves and to us by extensions. These men, these "truth tellers" that God Elected to speak through, tell us the facts. Not some delirious illusions about sin, the flesh and our adversaries.

If you do not know how to crucify this flesh and no longer walk according to it I will suggest you read Colossians 3:1-17.

IF you were dead in the flesh you wouldn't be typing. We "account" it that way til it "really" happens, which will happen. This accounting is a daily matter, 1 Cor. 15:31. But the Apostles didn't lie about the state of their vile flesh body with indwelling sin and evil present IN it. I have no reason to cast aside the facts they spoke of to hold up some grand delusion about "the vile flesh body." Jesus also told us the hard facts about what comes from within and it's NOT optional: Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23.

These "workings" [internal] are exactly what we are "eventually" released from.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I observe very closely, the "reality" of what the Apostles said. They did not claim what you claim. IF we want to read about their reality, listen to Romans 7:17-21, 1 Cor. 15:42-47, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 5:17, 1 Tim. 1:15, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 3:8 and a myriad of similar citings of fact. Those are their statements of facts for themselves and to us by extensions. These men, these "truth tellers" that God Elected to speak through, tell us the facts. Not some delirious illusions about sin, the flesh and our adversaries.



IF you were dead in the flesh you wouldn't be typing. We "account" it that way til it "really" happens, which will happen. This accounting is a daily matter, 1 Cor. 15:31. But the Apostles didn't lie about the state of their vile flesh body with indwelling sin and evil present IN it. I have no reason to cast aside the facts they spoke of to hold up some grand delusion about "the vile flesh body." Jesus also told us the hard facts about what comes from within and it's NOT optional: Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23.

These "workings" [internal] are exactly what we are "eventually" released from.

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

How many deaths are there? Were you born spiritually dead?

 

[for_his_glory]

IF you want to call anointed to be evil and have evil power and a wicked evil domain, then I'll concede to that anointing. It was no "HOLY" anointing, but an evil anointing.

God Himself created all things including 'all' powers. This would include these powers and these authorities:

Ephesians 6:
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

None of these 'created' themselves. Mankind and this present creation have been quite Divinely Purposefully PUT UNDER the above and this includes being put UNDER the power of death.

1 Corinthians 3:22
Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;

Here is what happens at thee end:

Revelation 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

It is very likely we won't even remember any of it. The Glory of God Himself will wipe ALL of what we are currently, utterly away, and we will be joined into His Perfection.

Isaiah 65:17
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

If you want to ignore scripture and just pick and choose a verse here and there that makes sense to your theology than that is your prerogative. God called him an anointed cherub as we showed you in scripture so he was created perfect and glorious as he pleased God and gave glory to Him until at some point in time before the creation of man iniquity was found in him.

Genesis 3:1 is the first place where we see Satan working through the serpent as at that time he was already cast out of Gods Throne room and cast down to earth before Adam and Eve were even created. The last place we see Satan working is through the son of perdition in Rev 13 that will cause a great falling away from truth, 2Thessalonians 2:3-12, causing many to take its mark which seals their fate as their end is the lake of fire as they reject Christ and have never repented of their sin. Same with the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they took their mark worshiping other gods and were cut off by God.

 

[smaller]

hello smaller, dirtfarmer here

How many deaths are there? Were you born spiritually dead?

We were all born into this position:

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

And if we think it was just "me" an individual, think again:

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

When we are "born again" we are "divided" from that working/WORKER in the flesh, but this adversity/adversary 'in the flesh' does not cease it's operations, which Paul shows us in his "post salvation state" in Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:15-25, Romans 8:3, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 Tim. 1:15, which flesh remains against and contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

Paul defined the sin that dwelt in his own flesh as "no more I" that do it. But he certainly did NOT claim that sin didn't do what it still does, specifically in Romans 7:15 & 19.

Nor did he claim to be "free" of temptations in his own flesh. Gal. 4:13-14.

Does 'the tempter' tempt in the flesh? Ask your own conscience. It will tell you the answer.

As to death, we are advised of our state, post salvation:

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

The "second death" has no power over us because we already bit the proverbial dust the moment Christ came into our hearts. The second death can not harm us because it can not harm Him and we are "in Him."

 

[smaller]

If you want to ignore scripture and just pick and choose a verse here and there that makes sense to your theology than that is your prerogative. God called him an anointed cherub

Never in any citing is either Satan or Lucifer shown as HOLY. IF you think this is so, then go find a citing to prove it. What you will find is nothing because there is nothing there to find that says so.

What scripture does tell us is that the covering cherub was created perfect in "all his ways." That does NOT mean HOLY by any stretch of the imagination. "In his ways" should tell us to read the fine print about "the devils ways." Yes, there is a perfect devil, by no means HOLY, but perfectly EVIL.

Don't mistake the word perfect as perfect without looking at what that perfect is.

 

[for_his_glory]

I observe very closely, the "reality" of what the Apostles said. They did not claim what you claim. IF we want to read about their reality, listen to Romans 7:15 &17-21 & 25, 1 Cor. 15:42-47, 2 Cor. 12:7, Gal. 5:17, 1 Tim. 1:15, 1 John 1:8, 1 John 3:8 and a myriad of similar citings of fact. Those are their statements of facts for themselves and to us by extensions. These men, these "truth tellers" that God Elected to speak through, tell us the facts. Not some delirious illusions about sin, the flesh and our adversaries.



IF you were dead in the flesh you wouldn't be typing. We "account" it that way til it "really" happens, which will happen. This accounting is a daily matter, 1 Cor. 15:31. But the Apostles didn't lie about the state of their vile flesh body with indwelling sin and evil present IN it. I have no reason to cast aside the facts they spoke of to hold up some grand delusion about "the vile flesh body." Jesus also told us the hard facts about what comes from within and it's NOT optional: Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23.

These "workings" [internal] are exactly what we are "eventually" released from.

You are either walking in darkness (broad path/Satan) or walking in light (straight narrow path/Jesus) as there is no fence riding as you will love the one and hate the other. One also has to spiritually discern what Paul is saying in the literal, but also teaching in the Spiritual, plus you have to see in full of the whole, just not a verse here and a verse there.

Never said I was dead in the flesh, but have learned how to overcome the sins of the flesh. Do I miss the mark sometimes, yes, everyone does as we will not be completely sin free until we are resurrected and given our new glorified bodies as then we will be like Jesus in all His glory. Paul spoke a lot about the vile flesh, but he also taught us how to overcome it and that is the part you are missing.

 

[for_his_glory]

Never in any citing is either Satan or Lucifer shown as HOLY. IF you think this is so, then go find a citing to prove it. What you will find is nothing because there is nothing there to find that says so.

What scripture does tell us is that the covering cherub was created perfect in "all his ways." That does NOT mean HOLY by any stretch of the imagination. "In his ways" should tell us to read the fine print about "the devils ways." Yes, there is a perfect devil, by no means HOLY, but perfectly EVIL.

Don't mistake the word perfect as perfect without looking at what that perfect is.

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

why do you chose to ignore these two verses!!!

 

[smaller]

You are either walking in darkness (broad path/Satan) or walking in light (straight narrow path/Jesus) as there is no fence riding as you will love the one and hate the other.

IF the claim fostered above tries to present that believers are not sinners, those claims, I reject.

One also has to spiritually discern what Paul is saying in the literal,

What Paul says is abundantly plain, clear and unambiguous.

but also teaching in the Spiritual, plus you have to see in full of the whole, just not a verse here and a verse there.

What is it that Paul is saying that you reject?

Never said I was dead in the flesh, but have learned how to overcome the sins of the flesh.

Ah, not a sinner then? You'll pardon me if I reject such notions.

Do I miss the mark sometimes, yes, everyone does as we will not be completely sin free

I appreciate people trying to play it both ways but that is a pretty frail place to reason from. I have, for some odd reason, a compunction, call it an unction if you prefer, to be honest about being a sinner. Probably because Jesus saves sinners.

 

[for_his_glory]

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Did you miss the words for thy pleasure? Do you really think it was Gods pleasure to create anything evil..............God forbid!........... It was Satan's pride that caused him to be cast out of Gods throne room where he was created an anointed cherub that guarded the Throne of God as God did cast him out and down to the ground.

 

[smaller]

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

why do you chose to ignore these two verses!!!

Couldn't find a "holy Satan" statement huh? You do understand that no scripture claims Satan was ever HOLY?

 

[for_his_glory]

IF the claim fostered above tries to present that believers are not sinners, those claims, I reject.


What Paul says is abundantly plain, clear and unambiguous.


What is it that Paul is saying that you reject?


Ah, not a sinner then? You'll pardon me if I reject such notions.



I appreciate people trying to play it both ways but that is a pretty frail place to reason from. I have, for some odd reason, a compunction, call it an unction if you prefer, to be honest about being a sinner. Probably because Jesus saves sinners.

reply by picking and choosing instead of replying to the whole
God no longer sees us as a sinner, but His saints as we have been Spiritually reborn and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 1:3-14. We will miss the mark at times as even Paul taught that we will, but yet missing the mark gives us no excuse to sin willy nilly, but to guard ourselves from the temptation to sin when Satan, not our flesh, tempts us to fall short. What did Jesus say in Matthew 4:10 Get thee hence Satan. There is no good thing in the flesh as that is the only way Satan can tempt us and this is why we need to be walking in light and not darkness.

 

[for_his_glory]

Couldn't find a "holy Satan" statement huh? You do understand that no scripture claims Satan was ever HOLY?

WOW!!! you really can not see that these scriptures are plainly speaking about Lucifer/Satan!!!

 

[smaller]

Did you miss the words for thy pleasure? Do you really think it was Gods pleasure to create anything evil

I appreciate believers attempts to excuse God's creation and uses of evil, but unfortunately for such views scripture tells us God created all things. Scripture also tells us God created evil and God uses evil, numerous times.

God's uses of retributory evil is a well documented fact throughout the scriptures. There is no legitimately avoiding those citings of facts. Theodicy is one of the toughest gigs of scripture to understand.

Joshua 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the Lord your God promised you; so shall the Lord bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the Lord your God hath given you.

Some heretics, such as Marcion, even went so far as to claim the God of the Old testament was not God, but the "demiurge." Another creator who was evil because these statements of fact are unavoidable in the O.T. And he denied the O.T. was the Word of God or was for believers.

Job found out this reality:

Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

I don't see any credible way to avoid seeing "all things" in creation as what God Himself has created, and this includes the creation and uses of the "power" of evil.

 

[smaller]

reply by picking and choosing instead of replying to the whole

Sometimes it's good to stop at points of diversion rather than running further along trails that are apart from exchange at the points of diversions.

God no longer sees us as a sinner,

I think God sees that we have evil as an internal matter of fact. Paul saw the same fact for himself, Romans 7:21. So did the writer of Hebrews in Heb. 10:22. God isn't blind.

but His saints as we have been Spiritually reborn and sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 1:3-14. We will miss the mark at times as even Paul taught that we will, but yet missing the mark gives us no excuse to sin willy nilly,

I'm personally not aware of anyone that has made themselves sinless.

but to guard ourselves from the temptation to sin when Satan, not our flesh, tempts us to fall short. What did Jesus say in Matthew 4:10 Get thee hence Satan. There is no good thing in the flesh as that is the only way Satan can tempt us and this is why we need to be walking in light and not darkness.

Well, at least you arrived at the conclusion that we are tempted by a party that is not us. I consider temptations to be internal and of the tempter. Therefore the scriptural math indicates to me that scripture, when viewing "man" doesn't see "just man." Scripture sees [man and tempter] as man. Just as Jesus sees in Mark 4:15. Or as Paul sees in Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 or as John sees in 1 John 3:8.

IF we manage to see identically, as they saw, maybe we would see "man" and ourselves as scripture sees us?

 

[smaller]

WOW!!! you really can not see that these scriptures are plainly speaking about Lucifer/Satan!!!

Nowhere do we find any claim of scripture as "Holy Satan" or "Holy Lucifer." There was never any such thing in the scriptures. It's a freewill fairy tale that doesn't exist.

 

[JLB]

And I consider any notions of "multiple creators" to be polytheism.

No one mentioned multiple creators.

Your red herring isn't going to work.

 

[smaller]

No one mentioned multiple creators.

Your claim:

"God didn't create Satan."

Scriptures presentation of fact: God created "all things." There are no exceptions.

Your red herring isn't going to work.

Neither is polytheism/multiple creators.

 

[JLB]

Never in any citing is either Satan or Lucifer shown as HOLY. IF you think this is so, then go find a citing to prove it. What you will find is nothing because there is nothing there to find that says so.

What scripture does tell us is that the covering cherub was created perfect in "all his ways." That does NOT mean HOLY by any stretch of the imagination. "In his ways" should tell us to read the fine print about "the devils ways." Yes, there is a perfect devil, by no means HOLY, but perfectly EVIL.

Don't mistake the word perfect as perfect without looking at what that perfect is.

Your the only one making such claims.

Lucifer was created by God, and was perfect in his ways UNTIL iniquity was found in him.

Lucifer became the enemy, thus the name Satan.

JLB

 

[smaller]

Your the only one making such claims.

Lucifer was created by God, and was perfect in his ways UNTIL iniquity was found in him.

Lucifer became the enemy, thus the name Satan.

JLB

Your claim:

"God didn't create Satan."

It would appear by your sights that there are, er, ah, multiple creators.

 

[JLB]

IF the claim fostered above tries to present that believers are not sinners, those claims, I reject.

Believers are saints, that were sinners who were cleansed of their sins, and unrighteousness.

If a person is cleansed of all their unrighteousness, then why would they still be classified as a sinner.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9


JLB