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Pre-Trib Rapture

MithrandirOlorin said:
Hosea 5:15 "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."
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The book of Hosea was a severe warning to the northern kingdom against the growing idolatry being practiced there; the book was a dramatic call to repentance.
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The promise of restoration to the 10 tribes of the Northern Kingdom (Israel vs. the two tribes of Judah) was made in response to the defeat and captivity they would suffer at the hands of the Assyrians:

The captivities began in approximately 740 BC (or 733/2 BC according to other sources[1]), when the tribes of Reuben, Gad, and eastern half-tribe of Manasseh were carried away by one of the first successful Assyrian invasions.
And the Elohim of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul king of Assyria, and the spirit of Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away, even the Reubenites, and the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh, and brought them unto Halah, and Habor, and Hara, and to the river Gozan, unto this day.(I Chronicles 5:26)
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In the days of Pekah king of Israel came Tiglathpileser king of Assyria, and took Ijon, and Abelbethmaachah, and Janoah, and Kedesh, and Hazor, and Gilead, and Galilee, all the land of Naphtali, and carried them captive to Assyria.(II Kings 15:29)
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In 722 BC, nearly twenty years after the initial deportations, the ruling city of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, Samaria, was finally taken by Sargon II after a three year siege started by Shalmaneser V.
Against him came up Shalmaneser king of Assyria; and Hoshea became his servant, and gave him presents. And the king of Assyria found conspiracy in Hoshea: for he had sent messengers to So king of Egypt, and brought no present to the king of Assyria, as he had done year by year: therefore the king of Assyria shut him up, and bound him in prison. Then the king of Assyria came up throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria, and besieged it three years. In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria, and placed them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes.(II Kings 17:3-6)
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And the king of Assyria did carry away Israel unto Assyria and put them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes: because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD their God, but transgressed his covenant, and all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded and would not hear them, nor do them. (II Kings 18:11-12)
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It described God (Cause he's the Narrator) leaving his place and returning to hi place, after having left it, so far this has only happened in 30 AD. What will trigger his return to the Earth is the nation of Israel seeking his face.
 
MithrandirOlorin said:
I'm referring to when the Nation Collectively accepts Yeshua.
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uhm john 3:16

"for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whomesever believeth in him shall not perish but shall have eternal life"

its that. not for god so loved isreal .. he came to redeem all men.
 
and they then rejected it.so its for all. john a jew wrote john 3:16. so why would a jew think that from that obvious reason that jesus died to save isreal only when its the word world. the sages taught that Lord did make all men and the gentiles had the revalation first.noah, enoch, and abel are gentiles not hebrews.
 
MithrandirOlorin said:
No, Romans 11 makes clear their Spiritual Blinders is only temporary.

Don't confusion discussion of the Nation with individual Salvation.
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realy? why then is the purpose of the trib if you believe that? temporary? well was the blindness to the jew named judas isachariot temporary?

sorry. that isnt what paul means. he means indivuals jews not the nation.
so the jews and hebrews that never return to isreal , arent to be counted as the nation of isreal? really me a jew and my kin in christ arent jews because we believed in america? if that is the case then any jew then since the diaspora that believed after ad 70 wasnt a jew and isreal is dead. why did god tell moses that he could keep the promise to abraham from moses? why did john the baptist tell the jews think not of your birth for god can raise seed to abraham from rocks? that says a lot.

so isreal wont sin? really show me where its in the verses with the third temple. there in ezekiel it speaks of temple sin offerings? so how does a man get imputed sinlessness? IN CHRIST! remove that speak of zionist stuff from your bible lenses and see what the sages said and ramban and what the jews of today and well my dad told me that jews got blessed and not to be arrogant.
 
MithrandirOlorin said:
Last very of Chapter 5, I already quoted it. God is REturning to his place (The Ascension) he will return when they seek his face.
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http://studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ho&chapter=005

oh you mean that. uh no. god deal with isreal differently then yes but jesus said the law was finished and also per the apostles said that jeremiah 31 was fulfilled. the old covenant was finished(fulfilled) in christ and the law and torah resides in is. we jews and gentiles both know the lord.

http://studylight.org/com/acc/view.cgi?book=ho&chapter=006

and the chapter stated. there was a return of isrealites to the land? hmm not in mass , but well in the nt theres a mention of an asherite. also lets see this was short term revival.

Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the Lord: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
4 O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.
5 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.
6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
8 Gilead is a city of them that work iniquity, and is polluted with blood.
9 And as troops of robbers wait for a man, so the company of priests murder in the way by consent: for they commit lewdness.
10 I have seen an horrible thing in the house of Israel: there is the whoredom of Ephraim, Israel is defiled.
11 Also, O Judah, he hath set an harvest for thee, when I returned the captivity of my people.
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i will even do better i will use a jew to get the oral story behind this revival from rashi at chabad.org

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16160/showrashi/true

he believes that to be a messianic prophecy.hmm interesting that is fullifilled the third temple per the sages is a fleshly one and i have posted that elsewhere and jesus said that he was a temple and paul said we are his temple.
 
it's about the Law, it's about God's promises to Abraham, Issac, Jacob and David, those where unconditional Covenants just as our Salvation is an unconditional Covenant. We cannot not forfeit what God promised us, no matter how hard we try.
 
MithrandirOlorin said:
it's about the Law, it's about God's promises to Abraham, Issac, Jacob and David, those where unconditional Covenants just as our Salvation is an unconditional Covenant. We cannot not forfeit what God promised us, no matter how hard we try.
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land promises need not fulifilled by your means. so you think that christ cant tell the jews after he returns here is your land and go enter it and posses it?

isreal had a purpose and she failed it. the cross cant save. so we now GOD must say and think opps isreal you are at bat again? really?
 
Lev 26:3 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;

Lev 26:40 If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
Lev 26:41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.


Telling my kid..... Johnny IF you wash the truck you can use it... He understood the use of the truck was conditional
 
Most of us use what we believe fits the way we want it too. :sad


Lev 26:42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
 
MithrandirOlorin said:
Last very of Chapter 5, I already quoted it. God is REturning to his place (The Ascension) he will return when they seek his face.
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This is where you missed the boat (and the train, plane, automobile and horse, too).

Hosea isn't talking about the ascension of Christ! He is talking about judgment: the judgment of Israel (northern kingdom) that would befall them at the hands of the Assyrians and the judgment of Judah (southern kingdom) at the hands of Babylon!

3 I know Ephraim, and Israel is not hidden from me; for now, O Ephraim, you have played the whore; Israel is defiled.
4 Their deeds do not permit them to return to their God. For the spirit of whoredom is within them, and they know not the Lord.
5 The pride of Israel testifies to his face; Israel and Ephraim shall stumble in his guilt; Judah also shall stumble with them.
6 With their flocks and herds they shall go to seek the Lord, but they will not find him; he has withdrawn from them. (This is before the ascension!)
7 They have dealt faithlessly with the Lord; for they have borne alien children. Now the new moon shall devour them with their fields.
8 Blow the horn in Gibeah, the trumpet in Ramah. Sound the alarm at Beth-aven; we follow you, O Benjamin!
9 Ephraim shall become a desolation in the day of punishment; among the tribes of Israel I make known what is sure.
10 The princes of Judah have become like those who move the landmark; upon them I will pour out my wrath like water.
11 Ephraim is oppressed, crushed in judgment, because he was determined to go after filth.
12 But I am like a moth to Ephraim, and like dry rot to the house of Judah.
13 When Ephraim saw his sickness, and Judah his wound, then Ephraim went to Assyria, and sent to the great king. But he is not able to cure you or heal your wound.
14 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim, and like a young lion to the house of Judah. I, even I, will tear and go away; I will carry off, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to my place, until they acknowledge their guilt and seek my face, and in their distress earnestly seek me.
Hosea 5:3-15 (ESV)

This is the same judgment of which Ezekiel prophesied! And what does He write???

18 Then the glory of the Lord went out from the threshold of the house, and stood over the cherubim.
19 And the cherubim lifted up their wings and mounted up from the earth before my eyes as they went out, with the wheels beside them. And they stood at the entrance of the east gate of the house of the Lord, and the glory of the God of Israel was over them. Ezek 10:18-19 (ESV)

The Temple was God's dwelling place on earth. When God judged Israel and Judah, Ezekiel prophesied that God's glory departed from the Temple: God returned to His heavenly abode!

God's glory returned to the Temple for Daniel's "70 weeks" so that His plan of redemption could come to pass, but when it was time for God to return to earth, He provided His own Temple: the body of His only begotten Son. All Old Testament prophecy dealing with God's return to the people either deals with His return to the rebuilt Temple under Ezra, Nehemiah, and Zerubabbel, or His advent in the form and person of Jesus Christ.

There is only one prophecy that I know of in the Old Testament that deals with Christ's ascension to the Father, and that's in Daniel 7:13-14:

“I saw in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven there came one like a son of man, and he came to the Ancient of Days and was presented before him. (Notice He is presented before God after ascending! He receives His kingdom in heaven: not on earth!)
14 And to him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom one that shall not be destroyed. Dan 7:13-14 (ESV)

Christ received the kingdom from His father when He ascended to the father, not when He supposedly returns to earth again!
 
MithrandirOlorin said:
God went out of his way to make sure HE was the only one bound to any agreement.
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Then why would He punish Israel for not upholding their end of it if they weren't bound to it, too???

The fact that Israel was bound to the Law is why Christ came: to redeem them from the Law.

But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. Gal 4:4-5 (ESV)

The mystery of the gospel is this: that Gentiles are joint-heirs, too!

The Abrahamic covenant is a covenant of faith and faith is rewarded in all who believe: Jew or Gentile.
 
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