Proof of Trinity

[Jesse Stone]

Teddy Trueblood #457

I've only recently begun watching the Jesse Stone movies via Netflix. So far, I've enjoyed them very much. Must be because I'm old.

LOL Perhaps. If that's the criteria, then everybody will like them eventually.

 

[Gregg]

" 'Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me [speaking of the Incarnate Son of God]. And the Lord [Adonay], whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,' says the LORD [YHWH] of hosts" (Mal 3:1).

The Lord [Adonay, a name used only for God] came to His temple; He being the Lord Jesus Christ, because He was the One of whom the furnishings in the temple spoke of. Everything in it said "Glory to God.'

". . . says the LORD of hosts" - who is the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God Incarnate.

 

[Asyncritus]

My Strong Beliefs And My Prayer:
I believe in God the Father Almighty, the Creator of heaven and
earth, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, our Lord: who was conceived
by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead and buried.

The third day He rose from the dead. He ascended into Heaven and
sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, whence He shall
come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy worldwide church Christendom, the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting.

So far, so good.

That is the apostles creed, so called, with which no-one can find any scriptural fault.

I submit to the Sovereignty of God with humility and a prayer for mercy
and grace. I submit to the Christian Church the body of Christ as
built upon, and only upon, the teachings of the Holy Bible's prophets
and apostles all being inspired by God. I pray to the Sovereign God
of the Bible for mercy and grace on the merits of the Lord Christ. In
the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, one God
in Three Persons. Blessed Trinity. Amen.

I don't know where this lot comes from, but it does contain certain very dubious elements, which I have highlighted.

 

[Gregg]

"Your throne, O God [Elohiym], is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom" (Ps 45:6).

Whose throne is forever, and who is called 'Elohiym'? Paul identifies that One as the Son of God!

"but as to the Son, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom;' " (Heb 1:8).

This is simple and straight forward; a narrowly defined truth.

 

[Chopper]

Chopper #451

Greetings fellow member of the Society for the Advancement of Wheezin Geezers.



We all eventually betray in some way what we truly think underneath all the sham that we've built up on the outside to hide what we truly think underneath. "Hear them for what they say, know them by what they do." Stone's Law. Christianity speaks big things while doing its own little things. Christianity lives up to the potential of its own thinking, which has little to do with the God of the Bible. Fortunately, there are a few Christians who transcend Christianity. I'm happy to have known a few of the few.



Jesus said,

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

Do you understand what that implies?

Or this:



While this passage refers explicitly to the detection of false prophets, the principle can be applied to anyone. Fruit reveals the tree for what it really is. This doesn't apply to you so much as it applies to those who originated or perpetuate the Christian denominations. But make no mistake. A fruit of failings implies a very serious problem. I would point out that it is infinitely better to follow Christ, not Christianity. And not to make the mistake of thinking that following Christ and following Christianity is one and the same.



Yes he is.



But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-6)

I don't think Peter said that just to hear himself talk. The Greek word hagios (translated holy) means to be pure. In all that we think, in all that we do. Christians have a different understanding of that word. That it means separation. And they practice that meaning to the full. There's a big difference between stumbling and a life style.



"Put up with" is your characterization. You know yourself better than I.



Why should I (a non-Christian) believe that, if you (a Christian) are not a proper example? If you don't even consider yourself a proper example?



I can forgive. I can't forget.



Of course, grasshopper.

I don't need to be a Christian to know that the key is for you to follow Jesus Christ, and to follow me only to the extent that I follow Christ. (e.g., 1 Corinthians 11:1) Better yet, don't follow me at all. Follow Jesus Christ and then we can both follow him together. (e.g., 1 Corinthians 1:10-31)



Thank you. It is my hope as well. I may not have a lot of faith, but I do have a lot of hope.

Wow Jesse, I'm stunned!! You are the first "Christ One" that I have met in my 40 years of being a servant of the Christ. I must confess and ask you for forgiveness for presenting a Charles David Allen Sr. that is not really true. If you knew me or spoke with my Wife or Children or Grandchildren, they all would say, "He's real, I'll follow him because he follows Jesus. I'm not perfect, but my goal is the same as Paul's in that it seemed difficult to me to be an example of Jesus, Whom I've never seen. I am a student of the Gospels because of 1 Peter 1:2 "May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord." I have and will continue to study the ways of Christ Jesus so that my life will demonstrate who I am, period!

I'll not say anymore because it would sound like a defense, and I don't need any. I realize that through this Forum, I am in the presence of a bond servant of the Christ. You have rejected "Christianity" because of all you have written. You don't have to function inside of this failed system filled with leaven. Unfortunately I do.

I would like to see more of your teachings on how to break out of a tainted system. Unfortunately, some who have tried to break loose only turn into a cult....You have accomplished what many believers wish they could but are afraid they will have to leave their Christian Club call church.

It's been my honor to correspond with you. May the Lord's peace find you.

P.S. From one Wheezin Geezer to another, don't forget your cane "don't leave home without it."

 

[Jesse Stone]

Chopper #465

I would like to see more of your teachings on how to break out of a tainted system. Unfortunately, some who have tried to break loose only turn into a cult

Yeah. I've noticed that too. Another reason I'm an Agnostic, rather than some militant Christian out there trying to set things right. They break away, like Martin Luther, only to accomplish more of the same, like Martin Luther. So much for reform within Christianity.

But enough chit chat. Back to the Trinity.

 

[Jesse Stone]

Re: God's use of personal pronouns

Am I assuming correctly that the consensus among Trinitarians is that the use of personal pronouns by God in the Old Testament is an expression of the three in unison as voiced by the Father? And if that assumption is correct, why do you suppose that God didn't reveal his true nature (3 in 1) knowing that it would cause problems down the line?

 

[Jack Hectorman]

..it does contain certain very dubious elements, which I have highlighted.

Hello Asyncritus, I hope all is going well over there in the United Kingdom.

Re "dubious elements": As you well know, one man's dubiousness is another man's absolute certainty. Also there isn't any possible way to settle this dispute
in this life. Why is that? Because there is no earthly person or group of persons that has the authority to settle this dispute. There is no such thing in existence
as The International Authority To Decide What Is Or Is Not Dubious.

I do not nitpick with words, so I need to explain myself: What is true of dubiousness is also true of everything else upon which humans disagree and that is the
reason I said what I said about dubiousness, because its also true to say this: There is no such thing as The International Authority That Decides What Is Or Is
Not True Biblical Doctrine, and specifically to this thread there is no such thing as The International Authority To Decide If Trinitarianism Is Or Is Not True Biblical
Doctrine. That leaves each individual Christian free to decide for himself and I have already decided solidly, locked down, steel determination, iron will, unmovable,
will not budge the width of one hair and will not debate it because Trinitarianism is, for me, a CLOSED SUBJECT and a SETTLED ISSUE. I am a Trinitarian. I am
a Trinitarian who ignores non-Trinitarian arguments as if they did not exist. I have heard them all and I have rejected Non-Trinitarian arguments, they did NOT
convince me. Non-Trinitarians have nowhere to go with me, other than to endlessly repeat the arguments.

I have no interest in endlessly repeated arguments.

Yet Non-Trinitarians still have a remedy for their cause and that remedy is they can go find someone who is NOT already settled on this subject and endlessly present
their arguments to them in threads.

Cheers.

♫ ♪ ♫ ♪

PS
I recently read your Bocelli thread where you said:

"I had the great pleasure of attending a concert given by Mr. Bocelli recently. To say I was
stunned at the sheer quality of his voice and singing is to put it mildly. The man is a genius,
beyond any doubt. Similarly, I heard Pavarotti in concert before he died, and was also
stunned by his voice and singing. These 2 men are incomparable, and there has been
nothing like them for the longest while."__Asyncritus (Nov. 12, 2012)
http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/andrea-bocelli-and-evolution.43719/
(Its in the Christianity and Science Forum)

Bravo! I am an avid Andrea Bocelli fan. To my best knowledge I have everything he has
ever put on DVD, and the wife and I often view them in the evenings after supper as we
settle back to relax a bit. Pavarotti also. I have a large selection of Pavarotti DVDs.

I particularly enjoy listening to Andrea Bocelli and Sarah Brightman sing together.
Perhaps you have heard their magnificent song titled: Canto della Terra:

♠

PSS
I would have just given you the link, but every time I try to merely link to a You Tube
video, the software automatically embeds the video.


`

 

[teddy trueblood]

Gregg #464

"Your throne, O God [Elohiym], is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom" (Ps 45:6).

Whose throne is forever, and who is called 'Elohiym'? Paul identifies that One as the Son of God!

"but as to the Son, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom;' " (Heb 1:8).

This is simple and straight forward; a narrowly defined truth.

From my 'Heb. 1:8' study:

PSALM 45:6

“45:6 O God. Possibly the king’s throne is called God’s throne because he is God’s appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as ‘god.’” - Ps. 45:6 f.n. in the NIV Study Bible (1985).

H. F. W. Gesenius in his famous and highly respected Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Gesenius renders Ps. 45:6, “thy throne shall be a divine throne.”

The RSV renders it as “Your Divine throne” and a footnote provides this alternate reading: “Or ‘your throne is a throne of God.’”

The NRSV says in a footnote: “Or ‘your throne is a throne of God.’”

The NEB says: “Your throne is like God’s throne.”

The Holy Scriptures (JPS version) says: “Thy throne given of God.”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) says: “God is your throne.”

The Good News Bible (GNB), a very trinitarian paraphrase Bible, renders it: “The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever.”

The REB has: “God has enthroned you for all eternity.”

The NJB gives us: “your throne is from God.”

Leeser - Thy throne, given of God, endureth for ever


HEBREWS 1:8

Oxford professor and trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, was described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

“In Heb. 1:8 it is not certain whether (Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς) ὁ θεὸς is vocative or nominative.” - A.T. Robertson, Grammar, p. 465. In other words, Trinitarian scholar A.T. Robertson is saying that Heb. 1:8 could be rendered as either “Your throne, O God (vocative)” OR “God is your throne (nominative).”

Robertson also wrote:

“It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative [‘your throne, O God’] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: ‘God is thy throne’ or ‘Thy throne is God.’ Either makes good sense.” - p. 339, Vol. 5, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press, 1960.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

New International Reader’s Version (NIRV): “Your throne is the very throne of God.”

NSB - God is your throne

Mace - "God is thy throne….”

Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’

 

[Asyncritus]

Hi Jack

You've heard about horses and water, I'm sure, so I'll say no more.

Glad you like Bocelli and Pavarotti. This expresses my feelings very well:

 

[Gregg]

From my 'Heb. 1:8' study:

PSALM 45:6

“45:6 O God. Possibly the king’s throne is called God’s throne because he is God’s appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as ‘god.’” - Ps. 45:6 f.n. in the NIV Study Bible (1985).

H. F. W. Gesenius in his famous and highly respected Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament Gesenius renders Ps. 45:6, “thy throne shall be a divine throne.”

The RSV renders it as “Your Divine throne” and a footnote provides this alternate reading: “Or ‘your throne is a throne of God.’”

The NRSV says in a footnote: “Or ‘your throne is a throne of God.’”

The NEB says: “Your throne is like God’s throne.”

The Holy Scriptures (JPS version) says: “Thy throne given of God.”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) says: “God is your throne.”

The Good News Bible (GNB), a very trinitarian paraphrase Bible, renders it: “The kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever.”

The REB has: “God has enthroned you for all eternity.”

The NJB gives us: “your throne is from God.”

Leeser - Thy throne, given of God, endureth for ever


HEBREWS 1:8

Oxford professor and trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, was described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His respected Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:

“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”

University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule writes that Heb. 1:8 may be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.

“In Heb. 1:8 it is not certain whether (Ὁ θρόνος σου ὁ θεὸς) ὁ θεὸς is vocative or nominative.” - A.T. Robertson, Grammar, p. 465. In other words, Trinitarian scholar A.T. Robertson is saying that Heb. 1:8 could be rendered as either “Your throne, O God (vocative)” OR “God is your throne (nominative).”

Robertson also wrote:

“It is not certain whether ho theos is here the vocative [‘your throne, O God’] ... or ho theos is nominative (subject or predicate) with estin (is) understood: ‘God is thy throne’ or ‘Thy throne is God.’ Either makes good sense.” - p. 339, Vol. 5, Word Pictures in the New Testament, Broadman Press, 1960.

An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”

The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”

The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”

New International Reader’s Version (NIRV): “Your throne is the very throne of God.”

NSB - God is your throne

Mace - "God is thy throne….”

Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’

Were Jesus to tell you Himself that He is God, perhaps you would still offer a lengthy dissent.

 

[Gregg]

"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (John 17:5).

We have read of that glory in Isaiah 6:1, glory which the Son of God had before His Incarnation.

 

[jasoncran]

"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (John 17:5).

We have read of that glory in Isaiah 6:1, glory which the Son of God had before His Incarnation.

I am the Lord alone , saith the lord, I will not share my glory with another.

 

[Randy]

"Your throne, O God [Elohiym], is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom" (Ps 45:6).

Whose throne is forever, and who is called 'Elohiym'? Paul identifies that One as the Son of God!

"but as to the Son, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, a scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom;' " (Heb 1:8).

This is simple and straight forward; a narrowly defined truth.

I believe that would be in the context Jesus has a place on His Fathers throne. He received authority from the Father just as those who overcome will have a place on Jesus's throne. (received authority)

Nevertheless I believe all the fullness of God (given) dwells in the Son. That is not in question.

Randy

 

[Randy]

Were Jesus to tell you Himself that He is God, perhaps you would still offer a lengthy dissent.

I believe Jesus would state this if I asked Him is He God.

He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

Randy

 

[Gregg]

I am the Lord alone , saith the lord, I will not share my glory with another.

Exactly! That is why Jesus did not refuse to be worshiped, because He is the Lord our God, the Son of God Incarnate. For the same reason, He did not correct Thomas when he addressed Jesus as his LORD and his God.

 

[WIP]

Exactly! That is why Jesus did not refuse to be worshiped, because He is the Lord our God, the Son of God Incarnate. For the same reason, He did not correct Thomas when he addressed Jesus as his LORD and his God.

Likewise I’ve often thought the interpretation of the following verses has been misinterpreted as Jesus rebuking the young ruler for calling him “good” when he might have actually been affirming his identity. He could be saying, why do you call me good? It is because I am God and you are right in doing so.

Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19
And he said unto him, “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God:”

 

[Gregg]

Likewise I’ve often thought the interpretation of the following verses has been misinterpreted as Jesus rebuking the young ruler for calling him “good” when he might have actually been affirming his identity. He could be saying, why do you call me good? It is because I am God and you are right in doing so.

Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19
And he said unto him, “Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God:”

I have the same understanding, that Jesus was affirming His Deity. Immanuel, the Son of God in the flesh, was standing before them and they did not recognize Him.


The Father has called His Son "God", the Son Himself says the same, the Spirit of God says the same, and the testimony of 2 or 3 Apostles claim as much. In the same way, the Son of God has been presented here in this forum with countless Scriptures; and yet some refuse to believe who He is.

It is a matter of faith, a gift which none of us had before God gave it to us; not by logic, reason, or lengthy proofs.

 

[WIP]

The way I see it, the problem with proving the Trinity is that one is trying to prove a Godly thing using human understanding. It is impossible without God.

 

[Asyncritus]

I believe Jesus would state this if I asked Him is He God.

He never dies.

He DID die. Remember?
Lu 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the spirit

1 Cor.15: 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:.

Yes, He is all that the Father is.

Jn.14.28"... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

No, He has always been the Son.

Ps 2. 7 ¶ I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee