Question for those who believe in "speaking in tongues"...

[Cornelius]

Tounges may be evidence of having the holy spirit, but let's not start saying that in order to have a 'full' faith or a 'full' Christian life you need to speak tounges. What's the point anyway? You're just speaking useless words which hardly anyone can understand. btw, Paul did not promote tounges, in fact he more trashed the usage of them than he promoted them.

Again, let me quote Paul:

1Co 14:18 I thank God, I speak with tongues more than you all:

And here is the point:

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

So how come you have decided it is "useless words", when the Bible tells us that NO man can understand tongues.So if NO man can understand tongues, then how come people say it must always be in a known language of men ? I will tell you why. Because people do not know that the Bible talks about BOTH. A known language (like when the disciples spoke on Pentecost and people heard them in their own language, and the second kind (mentioned in 1 Cor 14:2 when NO man understand it) So we have two kinds: 1Co 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels

 

[Cornelius]

Okay, . . . so what is the "gift" (given by the Holy Spirit), . . . if it is MY spirit that is praying. Also, if MY understanding is unfruitful, . . . what's the point? I just don't understand what value it is for me to speak incomprehensible words.

The Holy Spirit's gift is to your spirit. When He comes to be within your spirit, He brings this with Him. The same as the other gifts too.

When we pray in the Spirit, we stir up the Gift (the Holy Spirit) 2Ti 1:6 For which cause I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee through the laying on of my hands.
2Ti 1:7 For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline.



Here is the "value" when we speak in tongues:1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

God has not changed...........WE have.

 

[shad]

God has not changed...........WE have.

We know them by their fruit they produce.

.

 

[Cornelius]

God has not changed...........WE have.

We know them by their fruit they produce.

.

Unfortunately you are judging God's gift by telling people that tongues are not real, because some people have bad fruit. I can tell you that some of the worst people I have met are "Christians" but I cannot judge Christianity , because I have met bad Christians. So you too cannot judge tongues, because you have had a bad experience with some people who speak in tongues.I know Christians who speak in tongues who have excellent fruit.

 

[Imagican]

Allow me to add this:

We are to perform that which offers edification to OTHERS. Paul plainly offers that to 'speak in PERSONAL tongues' offers ONLY 'self edification'.

And you continue to 'omit' the REST of the statement of Paul:

1 Corinthians:

18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Now, let's get back to the RULES of 'tongues' as laid down by Paul. IN THE CHURCH, one, two, no more than THREE in a meeting are ABLE to speak in 'tongues'. There MUST be an interpreter. If there is NO interpreter, one who would speak in 'tongues' is to remain SILENT. Women are NOT to speak in 'tongues' in CHURCH.

Cornnelius, how many of these rules do those you refer to follow?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Cornelius]

Allow me to add this:

We are to perform that which offers edification to OTHERS. Paul plainly offers that to 'speak in PERSONAL tongues' offers ONLY 'self edification'.

And you continue to 'omit' the REST of the statement of Paul:

1 Corinthians:

18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

Now, let's get back to the RULES of 'tongues' as laid down by Paul. IN THE CHURCH, one, two, no more than THREE in a meeting are ABLE to speak in 'tongues'. There MUST be an interpreter. If there is NO interpreter, one who would speak in 'tongues' is to remain SILENT. Women are NOT to speak in 'tongues' in CHURCH.

Cornnelius, how many of these rules do those you refer to follow?

Blessings,

MEC

I am in 100% agreement with your post.

Personal tongues are different from those spoken in the church. Personal tongues does not need interpretation, those in church does.
Personal tongues is not understood by the person speaking it , whereas sometimes in church, a known human language can be spoken by a person who has never learned that language, nor can they speak that language any other time.

If you speak in tongues in the church and nobody interprets, you must not speak again in the church, but you must speak at home then.

C

 

[shad]

[

Unfortunately you are judging God's gift by telling people that tongues are not real, because some people have bad fruit.

You say if you dont speak in tongue you are not baptized by the Holy Spirit. This is obviously false because God does not give all His followers the same gifts.

I can tell you that some of the worst people I have met are "Christians" but I cannot judge Christianity , because I have met bad Christians. So you too cannot judge tongues, because you have had a bad experience with some people who speak in tongues.I know Christians who speak in tongues who have excellent fruit.

The Bible says to test the spirit. There are way too many rotten fruit around speaking in tongue churches as a whole. You seem to be closing your eyes from wicked deeds. Jesus does not tolerate followers who tolerate wicked deeds.

.

 

[Cornelius]

[

Unfortunately you are judging God's gift by telling people that tongues are not real, because some people have bad fruit.

You say if you dont speak in tongue you are not baptized by the Holy Spirit. This is obviously false because God does not give all His followers the same gifts.

I can tell you that some of the worst people I have met are "Christians" but I cannot judge Christianity , because I have met bad Christians. So you too cannot judge tongues, because you have had a bad experience with some people who speak in tongues.I know Christians who speak in tongues who have excellent fruit.

The Bible says to test the spirit. There are way too many rotten fruit around speaking in tongue churches as a whole. You seem to be closing your eyes from wicked deeds. Jesus does not tolerate followers who tolerate wicked deeds.

.

Sorry, you are still judging the gift by the people. Not a valid argument.

 

[shad]

Sorry, you are still judging the gift by the people. Not a valid argument.

Suit yourself, we discern our faith very differently. Jesus is the judge who in in line with God.

.

 

[Cornelius]

Sorry, you are still judging the gift by the people. Not a valid argument.

Suit yourself, we discern our faith very differently. Jesus is the judge who in in line with God.

.

I know a lot of Christians who do not speak in tongues who have rotten fruit. Why do you say people who do not speak in tongues are better than those do speak in tongues.

 

[shad]

Sorry, you are still judging the gift by the people. Not a valid argument.

Suit yourself, we discern our faith very differently. Jesus is the judge who in in line with God.

.

I know a lot of Christians who do not speak in tongues who have rotten fruit. Why do you say people who do not speak in tongues are better than those do speak in tongues.

Like I said, speaking in tongue churches in general are showing rotten fruit comparing to the other denominations. I dont even belong to any organization because most churches are not showing godly fruit as a whole, but pentecostal types are the worst kind.


.

 

[Orion]

Okay, . . . so what is the "gift" (given by the Holy Spirit), . . . if it is MY spirit that is praying. Also, if MY understanding is unfruitful, . . . what's the point? I just don't understand what value it is for me to speak incomprehensible words.

The Holy Spirit's gift is to your spirit. When He comes to be within your spirit, He brings this with Him. The same as the other gifts too.

When we pray in the Spirit, we stir up the Gift (the Holy Spirit) 2Ti 1:6 For which cause I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee through the laying on of my hands.
2Ti 1:7 For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline.



Here is the "value" when we speak in tongues:1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

God has not changed...........WE have.

Interesting. . . . . . I'm beginning to wonder HOW I have control over "the spirit in me". If I don't even have knowledge or access to "this spirit language", how am I even able to control it enough to "be willing to be filled with the spirit, receiving the gift..."? I mean, . . . does my spirit understand my ENGLISH? Why, then, does it not speak in the same? Why all of the "unknown"?????

As for the "value" of it, I thought it was about God, now our OWN self (the edification of ourselves)? What VALUE is it, . . . . I wonder how much a person IS changed by the "experience" when they wake up on Monday morning and go to work?

 

[Cornelius]

Okay, . . . so what is the "gift" (given by the Holy Spirit), . . . if it is MY spirit that is praying. Also, if MY understanding is unfruitful, . . . what's the point? I just don't understand what value it is for me to speak incomprehensible words.

The Holy Spirit's gift is to your spirit. When He comes to be within your spirit, He brings this with Him. The same as the other gifts too.

When we pray in the Spirit, we stir up the Gift (the Holy Spirit) 2Ti 1:6 For which cause I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee through the laying on of my hands.
2Ti 1:7 For God gave us not a spirit of fearfulness; but of power and love and discipline.



Here is the "value" when we speak in tongues:1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

God has not changed...........WE have.

Interesting. . . . . . I'm beginning to wonder HOW I have control over "the spirit in me". If I don't even have knowledge or access to "this spirit language", how am I even able to control it enough to "be willing to be filled with the spirit, receiving the gift..."? I mean, . . . does my spirit understand my ENGLISH? Why, then, does it not speak in the same? Why all of the "unknown"?????

As for the "value" of it, I thought it was about God, now our OWN self (the edification of ourselves)? What VALUE is it, . . . . I wonder how much a person IS changed by the "experience" when they wake up on Monday morning and go to work?

I have given you scripture , so I guess its up to you to believe it , or not :P

 

[Imagican]

Let me offer one more story and I think I have offered about as much on this subject as possible.

My wife's son was a member of and accompanied her in attendance at this 'particular church' for years.

One year there was some kind of event called 'Brownsville'. My wife's son attended this 'week-end' event in some other state, (we are in Florida). Or maybe it was just in a different PART of Florida, (I don't really remember). Upon his return, the weekend after, my wife informed me that the 'buzz' at church was that Jason, (her son), had begun to 'speak in tongues' at this gathering. This was VERY exciting to the members of the church.

About two months later, he and I were discussing the Bible and he fessed up that the ONLY reason that he had 'pretended' to 'speak in tongues' was to impress the girls that were part of their group. Openly admitted that the 'tongues' that they were all 'bragging about' were contrived on PURPOSE for the sake of 'fitting it' or 'impressing others' of his group.

Now, he was only about thirteen at the time. But it became clear that ONCE a 'group' forms and sets in motion the RULES of the 'group', from this point on the members are OBLIGED to conform to the RULES.

Therefore, IF a church teaches that 'tongues' are EVIDENCE that one is 'born again in Spirit', then it ONLY stands to reason that those that are FAITHFUL members of said church will EVENTUALLY be encouraged to 'speak in tongues' or be 'left out'. And from what I experienced in this particular church, 'tongues' were ENCOURAGED more than ANY OTHER single concept of The Word. They dwelt upon the use of 'tongues' more than they ever SPOKE of love or faith. Yet their 'slogan' is; 'You're gonna LOVE this church'. I find THAT amusing TOO.

So, once again, what I have offered is a TRUE story of a PERSONAL experience. I know, I know. This is NOT a 'good example' of those that practice 'tongues'. But in reality, I believe that it IS. I believe that it simply offers the evidence of individuals being 'pushed' to practice something that CANNOT BE 'practiced'. For the Bible PLAINLY offers that 'tongues' are spoken; AS the Spirit GIVES utterance. That means that one CANNOT control nor OPT to 'speak in tongues'. But rather, the ONLY evidence of TRUE 'tongues' are those DIRECTED BY The Holy Spirit. I have YET to witness such tongues.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Cornelius]

I do not think you will ever witness tongues , because even if you do, you will forever doubt.

The doubt and unbelief of the modern church has robbed them of this gift. Plus the criticism of those who do not have faith has even crippled some of those who have received this and has caused many to start doubting if indeed God is still faithful about what He has promised. Christians has been resisting the Holy Spirit for many years.
C

 

[Orion]

Interesting. . . . . . I'm beginning to wonder HOW I have control over "the spirit in me". If I don't even have knowledge or access to "this spirit language", how am I even able to control it enough to "be willing to be filled with the spirit, receiving the gift..."? I mean, . . . does my spirit understand my ENGLISH? Why, then, does it not speak in the same? Why all of the "unknown"?????

As for the "value" of it, I thought it was about God, now our OWN self (the edification of ourselves)? What VALUE is it, . . . . I wonder how much a person IS changed by the "experience" when they wake up on Monday morning and go to work?

Wow! . . . . I quoted myself. . . . .probably because it didn't get answered before.

 

[Cornelius]

Interesting. . . . . . I'm beginning to wonder HOW I have control over "the spirit in me". If I don't even have knowledge or access to "this spirit language", how am I even able to control it enough to "be willing to be filled with the spirit, receiving the gift..."? I mean, . . . does my spirit understand my ENGLISH? Why, then, does it not speak in the same? Why all of the "unknown"?????

As for the "value" of it, I thought it was about God, now our OWN self (the edification of ourselves)? What VALUE is it, . . . . I wonder how much a person IS changed by the "experience" when they wake up on Monday morning and go to work?

I have given you scripture , so I guess its up to you to believe it , or not :P

Guess you missed it.

 

[shad]

I do not think you will ever witness tongues , because even if you do, you will forever doubt.

The doubt and unbelief of the modern church has robbed them of this gift. Plus the criticism of those who do not have faith has even crippled some of those who have received this and has caused many to start doubting if indeed God is still faithful about what He has promised. Christians has been resisting the Holy Spirit for many years.
C

You have problem understanding the Holy Spirit IMHO. The Holy Spirit does not manifest only in speaking in tongues. The Holy Spirit dwells in all truthful servants of Jesus.

.

 

[Orion]

Interesting. . . . . . I'm beginning to wonder HOW I have control over "the spirit in me". If I don't even have knowledge or access to "this spirit language", how am I even able to control it enough to "be willing to be filled with the spirit, receiving the gift..."? I mean, . . . does my spirit understand my ENGLISH? Why, then, does it not speak in the same? Why all of the "unknown"?????

As for the "value" of it, I thought it was about God, now our OWN self (the edification of ourselves)? What VALUE is it, . . . . I wonder how much a person IS changed by the "experience" when they wake up on Monday morning and go to work?

[quote:1za3vvwv]I have given you scripture , so I guess its up to you to believe it , or not :P

Guess you missed it.[/quote:1za3vvwv]

Well then, IF I missed it, maybe you would like to fill me in to HOW it answered my specific questions? SPECIFICALLY, . . does the "spirit" understand the english language? If so, why all the unknown language when the others around SPEAK english. The tongues used in the Bible seem to suggest that it was for those who didn't know their language, and they heard the disciples speaking in THEIR native tongue. What VALUE is it for us to either speak or hear incomprehensible babbling??

 

[Cornelius]

You have problem understanding the Holy Spirit IMHO. The Holy Spirit does not manifest only in speaking in tongues. The Holy Spirit dwells in all truthful servants of Jesus.

.

First of all that is not Scriptural. You have to pray for the Holy Spirit. He does not come on His own, just because you are a Christian.

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles that were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit:
Act 8:16 for as yet it was fallen upon none of them: only they had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

See? They were Christians and baptized, but did not have the Holy Spirit.

And how did Peter know these people received the Holy Spirit?

He heard them speaking in tongues:

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues,

And here are believers who had not received the Holy Spirit.

Act 19:2 and he said unto them, Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye believed? And they said unto him, Nay, we did not so much as hear whether the Holy Spirit was given.

So sorry shad, but you do not receive the Holy Spirit when you become a Christian. Somebody or you must pray for it. Mostly it is done with the laying on of hands.