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Question for those who believe in "speaking in tongues"...

Orion said:
Well then, IF I missed it, maybe you would like to fill me in to HOW it answered my specific questions? SPECIFICALLY, . . does the "spirit" understand the english language? If so, why all the unknown language when the others around SPEAK english. The tongues used in the Bible seem to suggest that it was for those who didn't know their language, and they heard the disciples speaking in THEIR native tongue. What VALUE is it for us to either speak or hear incomprehensible babbling?? :shrug

I did answer you already on this, but lets try again :)

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


Can you see, that this scripture says that there is no "native tongue" being spoken here?
Can you see that this scripture says that this man is speaking to God and NOT to man?
Can you see that this scripture says that he speak mysteries to God?

OK, now this man is speaking in what you call "incomprehensible babbling". That fits "for no man understandeth" (because its babbling to the ears of man )

The Spirit understands English, but the problem is that when we pray, our minds and flesh gets in the way of a perfect prayer. Tongues bypasses your own mind and allows your spirit to speak without human words, to God.

...................

Second kind of tongues:

These can be a human language spoken in public.
Act 2:8 And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?

Can you see that this scripture is different from the one that says for no man understandeth; That is because these tongues are different from the first group. These are public tongues.The first , were private.

Now in the public tongues group, we also find tongues that are not "human", but are the tongues of angels.
1Co 13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels
Can you see that the Bible says that there are two kinds of tongues:
1) of men
2) of angels

And can you see that Paul said that he could speak both? Paul also reminded us not to just look at tongues, we have to look at love as well. Looking at love, however does not eliminate tongues.
 
Cornelius said:
First of all that is not Scriptural. You have to pray for the Holy Spirit. He does not come on His own, just because you are a Christian.

The Holy spirit is Jesus' helper. Jesus said He will send the Holy Spirit to His followers when He want back to His Father.
John 16:7 (English Standard Version)
7Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for(A) if I do not go away,(B) the Helper will not come to you. But(C) if(D) I go,(E) I will send him to you.




Act 8:14 Now when the apostles that were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit:
Act 8:16 for as yet it was fallen upon none of them: only they had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

See? They were Christians and baptized, but did not have the Holy Spirit.

They did not have Holy Spirit because they did not understand the Gospel and Jesus.

And how did Peter know these people received the Holy Spirit?

He heard them speaking in tongues:

Speaking in tongue is another kind of manifestation of the Holy Sprit. BTW, a tongue is an understandable language, not babbling.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them that heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision that believed were amazed, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues,

And here are believers who had not received the Holy Spirit.
[
Act 19:2 and he said unto them, Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when ye believed? And they said unto him, Nay, we did not so much as hear whether the Holy Spirit was given.


So sorry shad, but you do not receive the Holy Spirit when you become a Christian. Somebody or you must pray for it. Mostly it is done with the laying on of hands.

I am sorry but your reasoning is out of context.
 
So when the tongues of angels are spoken in public, somebody with a gift of interpretation must interpret.

1Co 12:10 and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues:

Can you see that a gift is needed to interpret some tongues, because they are not human? Normally people interpret because they KNOW a language and no gift is necessary.

If nobody interprets, the person who spoke must remain silent in the church, but carry on speaking in private to God.1Co 14:28 but if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Also notice you can speak in tongues to yourself (that edifies your spirit ) 1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in a tongue edifieth himself; That would be speaking about the private tongues , when you speak to yourself and God.

Its all in the Bible. It just takes a little study and voila ! the truth comes to your understanding. Its not difficult at all. Just grab a concordance or e-Sword and you can type in "tongues" and all will be revealed. The question you should ask is "Do you WANT to know the truth, or do you want to stay in the understanding you have at the moment .
C
 
Cornelius said:

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


Can you see, that this scripture says that there is no "native tongue" being spoken here?
Can you see that this scripture says that this man is speaking to God and NOT to man?
Can you see that this scripture says that he speak mysteries to God?

OK, now this man is speaking in what you call "incomprehensible babbling". That fits "for no man understandeth" (because its babbling to the ears of man )

The Spirit understands English, but the problem is that when we pray, our minds and flesh gets in the way of a perfect prayer. Tongues bypasses your own mind and allows your spirit to speak without human words, to God.

I see what the passage is saying, yes. However, that doesn't mean it makes sense, TO ME. If my spirit is not coporeal, as is the case with God, . . .and if God doesn't speak audibly, AND if God knows MY thoughts, why does my SPIRIT NEED my mouth to pray to God? And you say it is because "our flesh gets in the way", . . . . then why should we pray at all? The whole concept is so foreign to me. :confused

What about when we don't know what to pray?

Romans 8:26-28
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

This seems to indicate that, when our mind is unable, . . . the Spirit prays FOR us. And since it uses a capital "S", I'm going to assume that it isn't MY spirit praying.
 
The Holy spirit is Jesus' helper. Jesus said He will send the Holy Spirit to His followers when He want back to His Father.
John 16:7 (English Standard Version)
7Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for(A) if I do not go away,(B) the Helper will not come to you. But(C) if(D) I go,(E) I will send him to you.

Yes but it never says you get the Holy Spirit automatically does it? No it does not.




They did not have Holy Spirit because they did not understand the Gospel and Jesus.
That is not in the Bible, you are giving me your opinion.


Speaking in tongue is another kind of manifestation of the Holy Sprit. BTW, a tongue is an understandable language, not babbling.

How can it be understandable when the Bible says no man understands it?
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
You are mixing up tongues of men, with tongues of angels.


I am sorry but your reasoning is out of context.

LOL, so please feel free to place my reasoning in context, but be sure to use Scripture and not your own opinion.
 
Orion said:
Cornelius said:

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.


Can you see, that this scripture says that there is no "native tongue" being spoken here?
Can you see that this scripture says that this man is speaking to God and NOT to man?
Can you see that this scripture says that he speak mysteries to God?

OK, now this man is speaking in what you call "incomprehensible babbling". That fits "for no man understandeth" (because its babbling to the ears of man )

The Spirit understands English, but the problem is that when we pray, our minds and flesh gets in the way of a perfect prayer. Tongues bypasses your own mind and allows your spirit to speak without human words, to God.

I see what the passage is saying, yes. However, that doesn't mean it makes sense, TO ME. If my spirit is not coporeal, as is the case with God, . . .and if God doesn't speak audibly, AND if God knows MY thoughts, why does my SPIRIT NEED my mouth to pray to God? And you say it is because "our flesh gets in the way", . . . . then why should we pray at all? The whole concept is so foreign to me. :confused

What about when we don't know what to pray?

Romans 8:26-28
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will. 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

This seems to indicate that, when our mind is unable, . . . the Spirit prays FOR us. And since it uses a capital "S", I'm going to assume that it isn't MY spirit praying.

Christians are being "occupied" by God. He dwells in you and He does so through His Spirit. So tongues comes with the Holy Spirit. Believe me, no man can just "know" how to pray in the Spirit.

I think you should really ask the Lord about this matter, because I can see genuine confusion with you at the moment, which is not out of rebellion against the Word, like many others. I believe you are genuinely seeking the truth, and God alone can open the truth to you if you really ask Him about it.

It might take a while, or He can decide to answer you real quick ! I pray you will find the answer to this real soon.

in Christ
Cornelius
 
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Non comprendo :lol
 
1Co 14:11 If then I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be to him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh will be a barbarian unto me.

Babbling :yes
 
1Co 14:6 But now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, unless I speak to you either by way of revelation, or of knowledge, or of prophesying, or of teaching?

Why ? Because nobody could understand what he was saying. No profit...........UNLESS?

Unless Paul interpreted what he was saying (if he had the gift of interpretation) and then the tongues would be a revelation, or knowledge or a prophecy or a teaching. :study
 
Corn,

How deceptive. Let's see if we can't clarify what you obviously RECOGNIZED as that which would 'blow your offering' straight up out of the water:


1 Corinthians 14

1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Notice the IMPORTANT part that YOU chose to OMIT: UNKNOWN tongue. The word UNKNOWN makes the entire chapter FIT into what Paul was trying to point out. If you ELIMINATE the word UNKNOWN, it certain DOES alter what Paul offered.

3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Notice HERE Paul does NOT use the word UNKNOWN. The ONE place in this entire chapter that he offers ANYTHING positive concerning tongues and notice that it does NOT say; "Unknown tongues'', but simply TONGUES.

6Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.

11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.

21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

Now, if one simply reads the bolded and underlined passages, it is PLAIN to SEE that Paul is NOT supporting the 'tongues' being USED by the church in Corinth. He is REBUKING them for MISUSE of tongues. He is NOT justifying that which DOES NOT edify the GROUP. He PLAINLY offers that speaking in an UNKNOWN tongue offers NOTHING of benefit to ANYONE. For if one speaks WITHOUT understanding, then there is NOTHING to be gained. PERIOD. Read it for yourself. And the spirits of the prophets ARE subject to the prophets. That is saying that for those that are TRULY in The Spirit, those around them are certainly able to be judged in discernment.

33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Here's my FAVORITE, (get it?). Now, READ these words:

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Now, I don't know about YOU, but hearing those babbling in what is SAID to be 'tongues' is NOTHING BUT CONFUSING. Even those that speak in tongues will admit that THEY DON'T KNOW what they are SAYING. If this ISN'T confusion, then maybe it's just ME that's confused.

34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

40Let all things be done decently and in order.

Ok, if these words are NOT clear, then Paul has summed it up as to allowing THOSE to REMAIN IGNORANT. Not my words. These words are offered by Paul. But, if any man even THINKS that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he MUST admit that the words offered by Paul ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD.

So, what else needs be SAID. It's PERFECTLY CLEAR what Paul is saying in this chapter. It was offered because the Corinthians were doing THE SAME thing that many churches today are doing. He COULDN'T say that 'tongues' did NOT exist for they DID. But he pointed out that the tongues that they were USING were NOT tongues offered through The Spirit and therefore of NO benefit. So all this 'hooplah' concerning them BEING a 'sign' of The Spirit? Exactly THAT. For they may well BE devised and inspired by 'A' spirit, but certainly NOT The Spirit. For the Spirit to give utterance they would HAVE to conform TO the commandments laid down here by Paul.

Blessings,

MEC
 
Cornelius said:
[

Yes but it never says you get the Holy Spirit automatically does it? No it does not.

You are ignoring His word. :shame

.
 
5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Sorry, there goes your theory that it is a known tongue. Although Paul does not constantly mention "unknown" we can see it is unknown because it needs interpretation.

C
 
shad said:
Cornelius said:
[

Yes but it never says you get the Holy Spirit automatically does it? No it does not.

You are ignoring His word. :shame

.

You are welcome point out where I am ignoring the Word.

Just quote the Scripture that says you receive the Holy Spirit when you first come to believe and all will be well. :)
 
Cornelius said:
5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Sorry, there goes your theory that it is a known tongue. Although Paul does not constantly mention "unknown" we can see it is unknown because it needs interpretation.

C

Known tongues are "unknown" to those who do not know that language. Hence, the need for interpretation. The Church of Corinth often had people from many nations in attendance so many different languages were often spoken. The only reason why the "unknown" is in there is because it was added by the King James translators. It is not found in the original manuscripts.
 
Imagican said:
So, what else needs be SAID. It's PERFECTLY CLEAR what Paul is saying in this chapter. It was offered because the Corinthians were doing THE SAME thing that many churches today are doing. He COULDN'T say that 'tongues' did NOT exist for they DID. But he pointed out that the tongues that they were USING were NOT tongues offered through The Spirit and therefore of NO benefit. So all this 'hooplah' concerning them BEING a 'sign' of The Spirit? Exactly THAT. For they may well BE devised and inspired by 'A' spirit, but certainly NOT The Spirit. For the Spirit to give utterance they would HAVE to conform TO the commandments laid down here by Paul.

Blessings,

MEC

No , Paul was pointing our the same error that we have today in churches . People were using their private tongues , that nobody , not even themselves, can understand. They were praying in real tongues, but in the wrong situation.

Paul was saying: "Not here brothers and sisters, you are sounding like noise, because we have nobody to interpret. Please understand, that if you pray in your private tongues in public, it has not edification value for the church.You should rather prophecy so we can understand you. Well, unless ofcourse you can interpret for the church what you are saying in tongues, then it would be equal to prophecy"



We should read the whole teaching the Bible has on tongues and not lift our single verses, because Paul was teaching the church about a new thing at the time and they were obviously making mistakes, which he had to correct. Some of these mistakes are still in the church. Humanity is still the same, we do the same things over and over again.
 
Dave Slayer said:
Cornelius said:
5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Sorry, there goes your theory that it is a known tongue. Although Paul does not constantly mention "unknown" we can see it is unknown because it needs interpretation.

C

Known tongues are unknown to those who do not know that language. Hence, the need for interpretation. The only reason why the "unknown" is in there is because it was added by the King James translators. It is not found in the original manuscripts.

In some cases that would be so, but that is not all the Bible has to say about tongues.
You should study it , before you teach
C
 
Cornelius said:
Dave Slayer said:
Cornelius said:
5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Sorry, there goes your theory that it is a known tongue. Although Paul does not constantly mention "unknown" we can see it is unknown because it needs interpretation.

C

Known tongues are unknown to those who do not know that language. Hence, the need for interpretation. The only reason why the "unknown" is in there is because it was added by the King James translators. It is not found in the original manuscripts.

In some cases that would be so, but that is not all the Bible has to say about tongues.
You should study it , before you teach
C

I have studied it thank you very much. Probably much more than most people. I do not believe tongues are "balla angla batta batta swing alla callossa panglay bellachanna...." If you believe that, fine. But I do not. If you wanna think you are right and I am wrong, go for it.
 
If you studied it, then you would remember this verse:

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

and you would not tell me that its a known language every time. The Bible teaches that BOTH happen. Sometimes a known language and sometimes (as above) an unknown tongue.
 
Cornelius said:
If you studied it, then you would remember this verse:

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth; but in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

and you would not tell me that its a known language every time. The Bible teaches that BOTH happen. Sometimes a known language and sometimes (as above) an unknown tongue.

If you speak in a tongue that no one else can understand due to an absence of translation, you are left speaking to God. If both happen, tell me what this means:

"palla betamma hamma junju pollosamma"
 
Cornelius said:
Sometimes a known language and sometimes (as above) an unknown tongue.

You forget that there is no "unkown" tongue. That was added by translators and is not part of the Bible! Why can't you understand that?
 
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