salvation

[dirtfarmer]

dirtfarmer here

In salvation, Is it enough to believe that Jesus is God's Son? or is it possible to believe that Jesus Is the Son of God and still not have salvation?

 

[WIP]

dirtfarmer here

In salvation, Is it enough to believe that Jesus is God's Son? or is it possible to believe that Jesus Is the Son of God and still not have salvation?

Satan believes He is God's son. Is Satan saved?

 

[Edward]

Satan believes He is God's son. Is Satan saved?

Ummm, Yep. Good point. The demons believe, and tremble and they will have no salvation. If one really believes then the natural thing to do is to walk in it. This does not mean it is a works based salvation, it means that real belief means one will be obedient and walk in love towards all and will have good works as a result of their belief.

What's that one verse say? I'll show you my faith because of my works, or something like that.

 

[smaller]

Satan believes He is God's son. Is Satan saved?

If a liar who can not speak the truth says "I believe" are they telling the truth?

You should understand that there is a very large portion of conundrum to engage with your sight above. In other words such questions need to look very closely at the subject matter before just saying a liar tells the truth when they say they believe, when in fact Satan is a liar and the father of lies.

John 8:
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Now, ask me that same question and I'll say no matter what a patent liar with no truth in him says, it is what? Yep! A LIE!

 

[smaller]

dirtfarmer here

In salvation, Is it enough to believe that Jesus is God's Son? or is it possible to believe that Jesus Is the Son of God and still not have salvation?

You can take this lesson for what it's worth. I was forced by an admitted personal desire to not have to condemn any believer to find ways to find peace with them. The shortcut method was to believe OTHERS were OSAS, not just myself. In other words, when I "accepted" the simple fact of Romans 10:13 not just for myself, but for OTHERS, it really did change my life to the better. I was "allowed" to put down my personal "hell stick" that sectarianism had forced into my hands to have to deal with. Faith for others and in others behalves, even if only for myself and my own heart, did me good, inside. And still does.

So, I learned a lesson in that. That it does not pay in the Spiritual senses to cast "stumbling blocks" in the ways of other believers.

Romans 14:1
Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

It is a doubtful disputation to dangle someone who is weak in faith over the fires of hell. It makes them DOUBT their salvation. I had many believers try to pull these various stunts on me, when I was "young" in the faith. I learned not to trust such posers. It is THEY who are weak in their own faith, not trusting Jesus to save them. They dangle other believers over the fire of hell because they don't trust in their own salvation. It really is a form of spiritual abuse from spiritual weaklings.

So, having learned these things the hard way, I applied to present Jesus in a similar fashion, to not make it difficult to "introduce" Jesus to anyone. To not make a theological wall of my own making so HIGH that no one else could climb it. I mean seriously what is the point of that?!

So you ask, can someone believe that Jesus is the Son of God and not be saved?

Let's throttle this down to what scripture says and make it simple. God Himself was in flesh, in His Own Son. This is the standard. Not that Jesus was just a man, a Son of God, but God Himself, as a man. When an unbeliever hears about Jesus, they SHOULD hear that God Sacrificed His Own Body, gave up His Own flesh life, for THEM, in their behalves, thereby taking away their sins. 1 Tim. 3:16, 2 Cor. 5:19.

They really should understand that God doesn't have anything against them. God is not their enemy.

So, getting more personal about introducing Jesus to someone, I like to make the bed of scriptural fact above, and then "connect the dot" to His Spirit, the Spirit of Christ.

We all know that God is LOVE, right? (They nod their heads in affirmation every time, up and down, yes. It's very easy.) If we need a scripture it's 1 John 4:8.

And we know that God is A Spirit as well. That Spirit IS LOVE. John 4:24

By way of introduction then, we can observe, together, with anyone, that they themselves have known love from someone (hopefully) and have even loved someone else themselves. It is there, that we make the connection to Jesus' Spirit. And, if God is with us in our witness, the introduction to Jesus STICKS. And it will STICK because Jesus Himself IS involved, IF we ourselves BELIEVE.

Assume them into His Kingdom. And AFFIRM them.

 

[chessman]

Is Satan saved?

Not according to Scripture.

2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (LEB) For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not a great thing if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.​

Revelation 20:10 (LEB) And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

Nor is Satan considered a "genuine believer" according to this site's SoF:

"We believe that genuine believers are born again by the Holy Spirit of God, and are indwelt, baptized into the body of Christ, the true church, and sealed by the Holy Spirit, and thus, unable to be separated from the love of Jesus Christ."​

Satan was never "born again by the Holy Spirit of God".

Satan believes He is God's son.

So do Mormons. Yet, they are deceived into thinking Jesus (like other humans) was first born with a 'spirit body' via 'the father' and 'the spirit mother'. Then Jesus' spirit body was 'born again' with a physical body via Mary and 'the father', umm getting together physically. Yep, to them 'the father' has a literal/physical body and 'visited' with Mary here on Earth to create Jesus' physical body. Odd, really.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Joseph_Smith_first_vision_stained_glass.jpg

 

[WIP]

If a liar who can not speak the truth says "I believe" are they telling the truth?

No, such a one is telling a lie. Not being able to tell the truth does not take away from the fact that such a one is lying. It just reinforces the fact that such a one is a liar.

 

[smaller]

No, such a one is telling a lie. Not being able to tell the truth does not take away from the fact that such a one is lying. It just reinforces the fact that such a one is a liar.

Point made. That if a liar with no truth in him says I believe, that statement is still a LIE.

The question is then, did Satan or devils really believe OR do they simply lie?

Which is the meat of that problem.

James said devils believe, James 2:19, but that doesn't mean they were/are telling the truth, that they actually DID believe. Do you follow the conundrum here? IF they "really believed" then why would they TREMBLE? Because they are LYING LIARS with no truth in them!

Now, follow the abuse of this conundrum. Some believers will cite that scripture, James 2:19, and then claim that devils really do believe, but their belief does them no good and they use that to condemn believers who believe saying belief is insufficient.

I'd observe that the faulty claim they make, that devils believe and really DO believe is an error of reading on the part of such claimers. No the devils may very well say they believe, but since they are LYING they are not believing whatsoever, but LYING, and hence trembling.

That's also why we ourselves have to employ some caution and some logic in how/what we 'think' we are hearing in those same statements, ESPECIALLY when such statements by James are deployed by "certain ones" to condemn believers who believe and say because devils also believe that belief alone is insufficient.

 

[civilwarbuff]

dirtfarmer here

In salvation, Is it enough to believe that Jesus is God's Son? or is it possible to believe that Jesus Is the Son of God and still not have salvation?

I don't believe so. For years I went to church and agreed that Jesus was the Son of God but not until I was convicted of my sins, repented & asked forgiveness and received the Holy Spirit was I really a Christian; prior to that I was a christian.

 

[dirtfarmer]

I don't believe so. For years I went to church and agreed that Jesus was the Son of God but not until I was convicted of my sins, repented & asked forgiveness and received the Holy Spirit was I really a Christian; prior to that I was a christian.

hello civilwarbuff, dirtfarmer here

I read your answer and I chuckled at the last phrase, Christian. There are many that will have the same timidness when they stand before Jesus Christ. "Lord have we not cast out demon, etc."

 

[civilwarbuff]

dirtfarmer here

In salvation, Is it enough to believe that Jesus is God's Son? or is it possible to believe that Jesus Is the Son of God and still not have salvation?

I do believe that notional Christians think this way, that acknowledging him by mouth but not living is sufficient......

 

[WIP]

Point made. That if a liar with no truth in him says I believe, that statement is still a LIE.

The question is then, did Satan or devils really believe OR do they simply lie?

Which is the meat of that problem.

James said devils believe, James 2:19, but that doesn't mean they were/are telling the truth, that they actually DID believe. Do you follow the conundrum here? IF they "really believed" then why would they TREMBLE? Because they are LYING LIARS with no truth in them!

Now, follow the abuse of this conundrum. Some believers will cite that scripture, James 2:19, and then claim that devils really do believe, but their belief does them no good and they use that to condemn believers who believe saying belief is insufficient.

I'd observe that the faulty claim they make, that devils believe and really DO believe is an error of reading on the part of such claimers. No the devils may very well say they believe, but since they are LYING they are not believing whatsoever, but LYING, and hence trembling.

That's also why we ourselves have to employ some caution and some logic in how/what we 'think' we are hearing in those same statements, ESPECIALLY when such statements by James are deployed by "certain ones" to condemn believers who believe and say because devils also believe that belief alone is insufficient.

Can you show me where scripture claims that Satan only claimed to know who Jesus was? There is plenty of reference to Satan having conversation with both God and Satan. Here are a few that I found. It seems Satan and Jesus were quite familiar with each other.
Job 1:6-12 NKJV
Job 2:1-10 NKJV
Zechariah 3:1-2 NKJV
Matthew 4:1-11 & Mark 1:12 & Luke 4:1-13 NKJV
Matthew 16:23 & Mark 8:33 NKJV

 

[civilwarbuff]

Every anngel in heaven, of which Satan was at one time, know who the Son of God is.....

 

[Jim Parker]

In salvation, Is it enough to believe that Jesus is God's Son?
or is it possible to believe that Jesus Is the Son of God and still not have salvation?

Mar 3:11 (NKJV) And the unclean spirits, whenever they saw Him, fell down before Him and cried out, saying, “You are the Son of God.”
Mar 5:7 (NKJV) And he (the unclean spirit) cried out with a loud voice and said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?
Luk 4:41(NKJV) And demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, “You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
The unclean spirits and demons believed Jesus was the Son of God.
Do you think they were saved?

iakov the fool

 

[smaller]

Can you show me where scripture claims that Satan only claimed to know who Jesus was? There is plenty of reference to Satan having conversation with both God and Satan. Here are a few that I found. It seems Satan and Jesus were quite familiar with each other.
Job 1:6-12 NKJV
Job 2:1-10 NKJV
Zechariah 3:1-2 NKJV
Matthew 4:1-11 & Mark 1:12 & Luke 4:1-13 NKJV
Matthew 16:23 & Mark 8:33 NKJV

John 8:44 is the definitive on the devil straight from Gods Own Mouth.

Murderer from the beginning
Liar
No truth in him
Father of lies
When speaking, speaks lies

None of the above facts change by Satan having conversations with God.

 

[dirtfarmer]

Mar 3:11 (NKJV) And the unclean spirits, whenever they saw Him, fell down before Him and cried out, saying, “You are the Son of God.”
Mar 5:7 (NKJV) And he (the unclean spirit) cried out with a loud voice and said, “What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God?
Luk 4:41(NKJV) And demons also came out of many, crying out and saying, “You are the Christ, the Son of God!”
The unclean spirits and demons believed Jesus was the Son of God.
Do you think they were saved?

iakov the fool

hello Jim Parker, dirtfarmer here

My understanding of scripture is that demons and unclean spirits know that Jesus is the Son of God, as per the scripture you quoted. It is not a matter of belief for them. The thing that demons believe is that there is only one God, as per James 2:19.

No they, demons, are not saved. We are told in scripture that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death ; Hebrews 2:9.

 

[Jim Parker]

It is not a matter of belief for them.

No. The know that it is an absolute and undeniable fact that Jesus is the Son of God. That's what they said.

The thing that demons believe is that there is only one God, as per James 2:19.

They said they knew he was the son of God in the scriptures I posted for you.

No they, demons, are not saved. We are told in scripture that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death ; Hebrews 2:9.

What does the part in bold type have to do with Hebrews 2:9???

My point, which you have navigated all around without bumping into, if that belief alone and without the works based on that belief, WILL NOT SAVE anyone.
As you pointed out, "the devils also believe, and tremble." The demons believe and tremble because they have the good sense to believe that they will be punished for not submitting to the will of the LORD whom they know is the Son of God. There are many professed Christians who need to get that smart and embark on the path of the pursuit of holiness.
Jas 2:14 (NKJV) What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
Answer: NO.
Jas 2:24(NKJV) You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Hebrews 11 describes how the saints believed and did something based on their belief.
Hebrew's agrees with James when he said that faith without works is dead. (2:17)

iakov the fool

 

[Mike]

Good on those who are using scripture to support their assertions. To those who haven't, please do so in order to be in line with the A&T Rules. Thanks.

 

[WIP]

John 8:44 is the definitive on the devil straight from Gods Own Mouth.

Murderer from the beginning
Liar
No truth in him
Father of lies
When speaking, speaks lies

None of the above facts change by Satan having conversations with God.

I don't understand how that refutes what I wrote in post #2. As I see it, you are not showing me that Satan does not know and believe that Jesus is the son of God.

What I'm trying to show is that just knowing and believing who Jesus is, isn't going to cut it. It takes more and this is what I believe James is pointing out. God doesn't want us to know about Him. He wants us to "know Him." There is a difference.

Here are some references to God's desire to know Him. The following is a chart I put together of the number of references I found using the NKJV Bible. I show the text used and the number of incidences per each book. People think that believing alone is enough but Scripture says the devil and his followers know who He is but they tremble. I wonder why? Perhaps it is because they do not put their faith and trust in Him and Him alone. Essentially, they are gods unto themselves and don't think they need Him.
View attachment 10868

 

[smaller]

I don't understand how that refutes what I wrote in post #2. As I see it, you are not showing me that Satan does not know and believe that Jesus is the son of God.

What Jesus said about the devil, spoken in John 8:44, was said after said conversations with God. Noted therein are several traits. Now, you are saying Satan knows and believes that Jesus is the Son of God. What scripture says is that there is NO TRUTH in Satan to start with, that when he speaks it's a lie and he is the father of lies.

We might try to understand that the nature of an anti-Christ spirit, which Satan and devils assuredly ARE, dictates they are incapable of being in truth and incapable of telling the truth or, as the case usually proves out, are masters of half truths, partial truths and innuendo.

What I'm trying to show is that just knowing and believing who Jesus is, isn't going to cut it.

Then you've only already bought off on the story that the works for salvation folks spin in their false association narratives. I don't buy their stories for the reasons given prior. They do not have accurate views on the subject matter whatsoever.

It takes more

You and I have nothing more to add to Jesus, who has given us everything.

and this is what I believe James is pointing out. God doesn't want us to know about Him. He wants us to "know Him." There is a difference.

I personally grappled with these subjects decades back for many reasons, one of which was trying to understand the differences between the grace and works camps, but also to know where I why I stood in faith. So, you say to "know Him." That's a great place to start.

So, please follow the reasoning here: God Is Perfect. Now, go define that. You should find that whatever "knowing Him" entails means to know Perfection. Any less qualifier than that is from our own imaginations.

What I found out, and thank God it did not take long, is that Gods Perfection in His Entirety can not be known by any but Him, Alone.

Now go back and take a look at what anyone else holds up. Even your own thoughts on what that really means. What you should see in every case is a petty comparison, by comparison.

And all the "works for salvation folks" have these longs lists of "musts." They seem to have forgotten that the Spirit of Christ is IN THEM. Is The Spirit of Christ in need? Lacking? Powerless without YOU? These are the questions we ask ourselves, if we are seriously engaged in faith. My answers to all three of these queries is NO, NO AND NO.

Here are some references to God's desire to know Him. The following is a chart I put together of the number of references I found using the NKJV Bible. I show the text used and the number of incidences per each book. People think that believing alone is enough but Scripture says the devil and his followers know who He is but they tremble. I wonder why? Perhaps it is because they do not put their faith and trust in Him and Him alone. Essentially, they are gods unto themselves and don't think they need Him.

When we FIX our eyes on The Author, we are engaged in an eternal engagement, that has no end. We are engaged with Endless/All Power, Matt. 28:18. We are engaged with endless Perfection.

There is no lasso, that our minds/hearts can put around and upon this matter WIP. It's not possible.

That is where we go, into faith. And in faith, we understand that 'all things' are given to us, by God. Even the puzzles of faith. I don't blame the works folk for anything, but I detest their feeble attempts of potentially condemning other believers. Of never being able to define what is sufficient work, how is it sufficient work. NEVER knowing they are saved. ALWAYS in doubt and peddling their doubts.

It's a floating crap game, with the end result always landing on potential eternal damnation. And that potential damnation takes root in their hearts and that is what they wallow in, continually. Always in doubt. Especially about "the other guy."

I can't live my life in faith in that way. Sorry. And I feel even sorrier for anyone who falls into that pit of darkness. I think God in Christ will bail them out in the end, but they will be in for a bit of a shocker when they find out that Jesus didn't need their "personal add ons" in order to save them.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Why the works for salvation camps INSIST they might be eternally condemned, to me is a working of Satan/devils in their hearts, trying to destroy other believers, the brethren.