Self Righteousness

[Qchan]

Please explain how the nations, Satan's Kingdom as you say, will have some "righteous demons" or "righteous fallen angels" who will receive eternal life, when Jesus made this clear statement: into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

The devil and his angels... includes his angels, meaning all of his angels, not some of his angels.

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10

The everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


JLB

Once again, you assume all fallen angels are condemned, and yet Jesus traveled to Tartarus to minister to them.

 

[Qchan]

The spirits in prison refers to those who were disobedient during the days of Noah.

Not the devil and his angels. The devil and his angels had been cast of of heaven already at the time of Noah and the flood.

19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.1 Peter 3:19-20


JLB

The bible never refers to mankind as spirits.

 

[Brother Mike]

Hmm... I feel our conversation is going to be very brief.
If you believe God lies, then you also believe the bible is wrong. If you don't believe the bible is wrong, then God doesn't lie.
So, tell me. Does God lie?

How is it possible to say I believe God lies, when you believe Jesus lied about what Abraham said? That is the pot calling the kettle back.

I showed you, to the Greeks and multitudes he spake parables. To the religious leaders He did not always speak parables.

They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
(Joh 8:33-34)

here is one scripture out of many that Jesus just spoke plain to the religious leaders. He answered them directly just like He did about Abraham and His disciples being there.

Now if their scriptures where Jesus spoke to the religious leaders not in parables, your theory is Myth busted.

 

[Qchan]

How is it possible to say I believe God lies, when you believe Jesus lied about what Abraham said? That is the pot calling the kettle back.

OK. I think I understand what you're saying. I incorrectly assumed you thought God lies. My apologies. You're referring to the parable. Understand that a parable isn't to be taken literally, or the meaning behind it will be lost. You can tell its a parable, because in the parable, it didn't mention that anyone sinned. Lazarus wasn't buried, but instead, was carried by an angel directly to Abraham. Once you understand the parable, then it all makes sense.

Watch this video, please. It explains the parable perfectly.

I showed you, to the Greeks and multitudes he spake parables. To the religious leaders He did not always speak parables.

They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
(Joh 8:33-34)

here is one scripture out of many that Jesus just spoke plain to the religious leaders. He answered them directly just like He did about Abraham and His disciples being there.

Now if their scriptures where Jesus spoke to the religious leaders not in parables, your theory is Myth busted.

Yet, if you read the scripture, it says Jesus always spoke in parables to the public. I gave you the verse (Matthew 13:34). So, is the bible wrong?

 

[JLB]

Once again, you assume all fallen angels are condemned, and yet Jesus traveled to Tartarus to minister to them.

The scriptures say He preached to the spirits in prison... Who were disobedient during the time of Noah.

These were not Satan and his angels.

JLB

 

[JLB]

The bible never refers to mankind as spirits.

I never said it did.

Those in Tartarus were the angels who were disobedient during the days of Noah.


JLB

 

[Brother Mike]

Yet, if you read the scripture, it says Jesus always spoke in parables to the public. I gave you the verse (Matthew 13:34). So, is the bible wrong?

No, the bible is not wrong. When the Greeks and others were in a multitude as the Chapter of Matt 13 explains, He spoke in Parables.
When with just the religious leaders and his disciples, he did not always speak in parables as I gave you several examples of.

Watched the video, Lot's of human reasoning and loud music drowning out the commentary at the start. Not very brilliant.

Then He gets confused about what Abraham's bosom is, which is described in Eze. The Pharisees knew it to be a place of the righteous dead. Not just resting someones head on their shoulder.

What is more amazing though....

Luk_16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

There was a murder and I went to the police, and said. "I have to tell you guys this. Qchan told me everything, how he went over and killed this person." And they arrest you, and I testify against you at trail, you get convicted for life. Later you write me and say? "Why did you tell police I told you that? I never said that!" I say to you, "OH, it was just a parable, I know you never said that, why get so mad, it's how you believe Jesus conducted himself also. I thought you would be happy with me."

Just amazing.

 

[JLB]

Once again, you assume all fallen angels are condemned, and yet Jesus traveled to Tartarus to minister to them.

I don't assume anything. I read what Jesus said and believe Him.

He said the righteous receive eternal life.

The righteous is not a reference to demons or fallen angels.

Just that simple.

If you choose to teach people that the righteous refers to the devil and his angels, then that is between you and God.


JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

Thanks!
Unfortunately, that verse mentions nothing about righteousness. Here, let me give you a verse that mentions righteousness without the need for self-interpretation:
Romans 4:5 (AKJV) says, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." <-- Notice the word "righteousness". Your verse didn't have this word in it.

Once again. Can you find a verse that speaks on righteousness as being attained through self-effort.

I was trying to show scripture that shows there are people who are One with God. You would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit if we say that those who are truly born of the Spirit are evil.

Matthew 12:32-33 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speak against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.

Not that we are good unto ourselves, but I was trying to relate that believers are Righteous.

 

[Qchan]

The scriptures say He preached to the spirits in prison... Who were disobedient during the time of Noah.

These were not Satan and his angels.

JLB

Who were they and where did they go? The KJV says hell. The Greek says Tartarus. What do you say?

 

[Qchan]

I was trying to show scripture that shows there are people who are One with God. You would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit if we say that those who are truly born of the Spirit are evil.

Matthew 12:32-33 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speak against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. "Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.

Not that we are good unto ourselves, but I was trying to relate that believers are Righteous.

Believers are righteous not through any effort of their own. They are righteous through their belief in Jesus Christ.

To blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to simply deny its testimony of Jesus Christ. In other words, unbelief. If you do not believe in Jesus Christ, you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and therefore, cannot be forgiven. However, once you believe in Jesus Christ, then you are forgiven. It makes sense since its impossible to be forgiven under the blood of Jesus Christ if you don't believe in him.

 

[JLB]

Who were they and where did they go? The KJV says hell. The Greek says Tartarus. What do you say?

Where is Tartarus?

 

[Qchan]

Where is Tartarus?

Who knows?

 

[By Grace]

Believers are righteous not through any effort of their own. They are righteous through their belief in Jesus Christ.

That is supported in Scripture
Genesis 15:6 And he [ Abram] believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness

To blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to simply deny its testimony of Jesus Christ. In other words, unbelief.

The term used by Jesus is "against" Mark 3: 29 and Luke 12:10, and in the Luke passage, He made a contrast between blasphemy against Jesus which is forgivable , and blasphemy against Holy Spirit, which is not. Therefore I believe that you may be making a conflation of the two terms.

Here is why I believe that:
It is the office (duty) of Holy Spirit to always point to Jesus Christ, as the Messiah, the Son of God, and the only way that anyone can be saved. He is the one Who reveals the truth of Scripture to us, and helps us grow in Christ.

As a result, I believe that to state that Holy Spirit leads us to trust in any other person such as Joseph Smith or Sun Mung Moon, etc is therefore the unforgivable blasphemy.

Can you see that?

If you do not believe in Jesus Christ, you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and therefore, cannot be forgiven. However, once you believe in Jesus Christ, then you are forgiven.

Since all of us here were once unbelievers, and now some of us have been saved through the unmerited grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, that is proof that unbelief is indeed forgivable

It makes sense since its impossible to be forgiven under the blood of Jesus Christ if you don't believe in him

Indeed, and that truth is why I believe that BAHS is something other than unbelief.

 

[By Grace]

Once again, you assume all fallen angels are condemned, and yet Jesus traveled to Tartarus to minister to them.

That is an argument from silence, which is a logical error. There is only ONE thing that silence on an issue can prove, and that is silence on that issue. That means that anyone who says "silence proves..." is merely offering conjecture.

In order to bolster your position, you need to find an affirmative (as opposed to silence, which is a negative) which states that the blood of Jesus also saves angels.

 

[MarkT]

Peter denied Christ 3x.
Do you think he's in hell?

So, the prob is, if a person thinks they can earn salvation, then they will constantly try to twist scriptures to prove it.
You are one of those people
Your bible to you is a means to find a way to lose salvation.
But i have good news for you......and that is this.........you can not out-sin the Blood's ability to pay for your sin.
Its impossible.
So, if you, after you are born again, deny Christ, reject Christ, hate Christ, or whatever, it has no effect on your eternal security.

Let me show you something, JB.
You have a mother, as im assuming you are not hatched or from Mars
So, you are BORN from her..
Now, go an deny that you are.
Deny it to God, Deny it to me, Deny it to a Judge, .... Deny you are birthed from your mother till your spine collapses and your voice burns out and your eyes bleed .......and you know what you have done?
NOTHING.
NOTHING.
NOTHING.
And why is that?
Because you cant UNDO A BIRTH by your behavior.......= period.
So, you can deny you are your mother's, all you like, but the BIRTH cant be undone by your DENIAL.
You are HERS and you cant change it by your words of denial.

and this is the SAME WITH BEING >born again<
this is a BIRTH, that has placed you into the family of God.
And just like being birthed by your mother cant be undone by your DENIAL......neither can your Born Again position be undone by your MOUTH.
Isnt that wonderful?
Now you dont have to worry about it., as there is no reason to worry about what cant be done.

How do we know you are born again? Didn't Jesus tell us we would know them by their fruit?

 

[Qchan]

That is supported in Scripture
Genesis 15:6 And he [ Abram] believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness


The term used by Jesus is "against" Mark 3: 29 and Luke 12:10, and in the Luke passage, He made a contrast between blasphemy against Jesus which is forgivable , and blasphemy against Holy Spirit, which is not. Therefore I believe that you may be making a conflation of the two terms.

Here is why I believe that:
It is the office (duty) of Holy Spirit to always point to Jesus Christ, as the Messiah, the Son of God, and the only way that anyone can be saved. He is the one Who reveals the truth of Scripture to us, and helps us grow in Christ.

As a result, I believe that to state that Holy Spirit leads us to trust in any other person such as Joseph Smith or Sun Mung Moon, etc is therefore the unforgivable blasphemy.

Can you see that?



Since all of us here were once unbelievers, and now some of us have been saved through the unmerited grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, that is proof that unbelief is indeed forgivable


Indeed, and that truth is why I believe that BAHS is something other than unbelief.

Well, your conclusion assumes that the person who has unbelief eventually believes. Sure, at that point they are forgiven. However, what if that person always disbelieves? Are they forgiven? That's the point. The Holy Spirit cannot forgive you while you're in disbelief.

Now, what if a person once believed and then decided to not believe? Well, at that point, they're only grieving the Holy Spirit, however, they are sealed. If Jesus were to appear before them, because they've once believed, they'll instantly be able to identify him. Even at that stage, Jesus would have changed their heart, so they would be open to what they're seeing (There are a lot of NDEs that display this phenomenon). However, a person who has never believed in Jesus would have a hardened heart. They simply would not accept Jesus. Some, in fact, would be sad at the fact that God exists! Even the bible says this on Matthew 24:30.

 

[MarkT]

What is the biblical meaning of self righteousness? Are most Christians self righteous?

The works we do we do to God. They are not of our self but of God. A self righteous person does his work out in the open to be seen by men. He looks for the approval of men. Pats himself on the back. Goes to church on Sunday. Cuts the grass. Washes the car. Celebrates the holidays. Puts up the lights and the Christmas tree. Seems right. But we know God works in secret and we work in secret. Mt. 6:1-7 Do not be conformed to the world or seek the approval of men. Do your work in secret and God will reward you.

 

[Qchan]

That is an argument from silence, which is a logical error. There is only ONE thing that silence on an issue can prove, and that is silence on that issue. That means that anyone who says "silence proves..." is merely offering conjecture.

In order to bolster your position, you need to find an affirmative (as opposed to silence, which is a negative) which states that the blood of Jesus also saves angels.

I do not believe that is the case. I believe you're coming to that conclusion because you do not understand the argument I am making. If fallen angels were condemned to death or everlasting imprisonment, then there would be no reason for Jesus to minister to the ones imprisoned under lock and key. Keep in mind, the angels imprisoned in Tartarus are more dangerous than the fallen angels on earth today. Of course, that doesn't mean each fallen angel Jesus ministers to will heed Jesus' ministry. Abaddon clearly will not (future tense) heed to Jesus' ministry, and because of it, he will (future tense) be destroyed.

 

[Brother Mike]

o blaspheme the Holy Spirit is to simply deny its testimony of Jesus Christ. In other words, unbelief. If you do not believe in Jesus Christ, you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and therefore, cannot be forgiven. However, once you believe in Jesus Christ, then you are forgiven. It makes sense since its impossible to be forgiven under the blood of Jesus Christ if you don't believe in him.

The Holy Spirit is not a "IT" and Blaspheme in the Greek means to rally against, to take position against in a active manner, speaking against. So, you must believe that those who do not rally against the Holy Spirit are also saved, though they don't believe on Jesus or even care to look at any religion. Jesus gave an example of what Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is, guess you have not read that far.