Self Righteousness

[JLB]

I'm sorry. I disagree.

Your free will cannot stop God from doing what he wants to do. God is love, and no loving God will sit there and allow you to destroy yourself. Remember that God knew the end since the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). That means God knew that many people would live through life without ever knowing or seeking him. To assume that God would simply let these people perish is to say that God created certain individuals while knowing they were beyond help from the beginning. If God knew they were beyond help since the beginning, then it would make no sense to create them in the first place just to watch them stumble and fail. It's illogical. Many Calvinist believe this, but I simply have to disagree with this notion.

Logic has nothing to do with the truth of God's Word.

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

Let me ask you a question, for the purpose of enlightenment.

Have you ever witnessed to someone?
Have you ever talked to someone, stranger, family member, or friend, and told them all about why Jesus died for them, and after you did, they didnt care, didnt want to hear you, and in fact changed the subject??

If you have experienced this, then, you understand that they have "received the knowledge of the truth"., but they didnt take it.
See, Hebrews, does not say they "received the knowledge of the truth, and were SAVED".
It says that a person told them....which is how they received it, as "faith cometh by hearing", , YET, they "sinned willingly", by rejecting it, by not exercising FAITH.
So, how does a person hear the Gospel without receiving this truth, which is in fact KNOWLEDGE, YET< they SIN?, and they sin willingly.???
Well, the exact same way it happened to you, if you have ever once witnessed to someone, and they had no use for it.
You gave them the truth, they received it by hearing it, and it is knowledge they now possess, then they reject it.
Thats what is happening with those Hebrews., and they are being warned about it.

They certainly did not receive the knowledge of the truth, but rather like the seed cast by the wayside, was devoured and never were received into the ground, which represents the heart.


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Sin willfully was to trample the blood covenant by which you were sanctified and count it a unholy thing, despite the Spirit of Grace. To know the truth of the Anointing, power, the World to come, and turn you back on God to be done with him.

David was not guilty of this. In fact I don't think David fully got it until Nathan told him a similar story and David said that is not right.

When teaching bible, we ought to only stick with Bible terms and concepts.

I think we can delude ourselves into believing that what we are doing is not wrong, not as bad as it is, or even justified.

 

[JLB]

I'm sorry. I disagree.

Your free will cannot stop God from doing what he wants to do. God is love, and no loving God will sit there and allow you to destroy yourself. Remember that God knew the end since the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). That means God knew that many people would live through life without ever knowing or seeking him. To assume that God would simply let these people perish is to say that God created certain individuals while knowing they were beyond help from the beginning. If God knew they were beyond help since the beginning, then it would make no sense to create them in the first place just to watch them stumble and fail. It's illogical. Many Calvinist believe this, but I simply have to disagree with this notion.

Logic has nothing to do with the truth of God's Word.

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

 

[Qchan]

Kidron, thanks for replying. One thing I like to do is that I like to learn the bible. I am certainly open to the things you're saying, and I really want to take what your'e saying to heart. Unfortunately, I just have a few issues I've found that I was hoping you'd be willing to explain.

The Rich Man and Lazarus is a highly misunderstood parable. It has nothing to do with hell.
Go here and I encourage you to read the whole thing:
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/71/t/the-rich-man-and-lazarus.aspx

Oddly enough, ive never mentioned Lazarus, so, there is no need for me to look.

I've found that this parable is the only place in the bible in which Abraham's Bosom is mentioned.

You are still assuming that God cannot persuade them to follow him without violating their free will. If God is all powerful and nothing is impossible for him to do, then surely God can persuade anyone he wants without violating their free will.

What he can do, vs, what he does, is how it is.
And yes, its impossible for him to Lie, or to break his word.

Ok. So, I'm a bit confused here. Are you saying that, because God imposes limitations on himself, that circumventing man's free will is another one of those limitations? Could you perhaps find me a verse stating that? So far, I've found nothing like that. In fact, I've found many places in the bible in which God was successfully able to convince people to do his will. I found no such limitation involving mankind's free will.

I disagree. Christ died to save the world. No where does it say that Christ died to save just the believers. John 3:16 says it all. God so loved "The World" not "Just The Believers". The world includes believers and unbelievers alike. God is a fair God. Would it be fair for someone who killed one person to have the same penalty as a person who killed 6 million people? There's nothing fair about that. Should a person who has done nothing but good in his life receive the same punishment as an evil Canaanite simply because they did not know Jesus? Of course not.

People dont go to hell because they are bad or good.
They go as a result of the consequence of Rejecting Christ, just like i said.
But do they deserve to be punished for a lifetime of sinning, ?
Absolutely.
See, freedom has a price to pay, and the price to pay is consequence.

So, what about the people alive before Christ was born? King David didn't believe in Christ, but the bible says King David will rule over the New Jerusalem during the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ (Isaiah 55:3-5, Jeremiah 30:4-11,Ezekiel 34:23-31, Ezekiel 37:21-28, Hosea 3:5). Abraham didn't believe in Christ, yet his faith in God was counted for righteousness. So, people going to hell doesn't seem all to straight forward as you make it sound.

Based on what I've read, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord (Romans 14:11). I don't see a "except for those in hell" anywhere in that verse. In fact, according to Philippians 2:10-11, everything in heaven, on earth and under the earth will declare Jesus is Lord. So, if you're arguing that hell is "under the earth", then wouldn't that verse suggest that people in hell will confess that Jesus is Lord? Well, that wouldn't be right, because people in hell rejected Christ, right? I mean, why would they confess he's Lord if they've rejected him? Either the bible is contradicting itself, or your interpretation has a few squeaky hinges

No, that's far too confusing and far too contradictory. If you eliminate hell completely from the picture, then it makes more sense. Please correct me if I'm wrong. However, please provide scripture to back up your claims.

Hell doesn't exist. What does exist is the judgement and the Lake of Fire. Hell isn't in the original Hebrew nor is it in the original Greek. The concept of hell is of Satan, designed to keep people away from Christianity, and it's doing a fantastic job considering how Islam is now the fastest growing religion over Christianity.

Well, first of all there is no such thing as the "original Greek".
There are copies of copies and pieces of earlier copies, but nothing "original".
And, i dont view Christianity as a "religion", i view it as a restoration between fallen humanity and Holy God.
And if you believe that hell is not real, then that is your option, and is your opinion based on research that to you proves what you think is true.
People on this forum, believe all sorts of things .

When I say "original Greek", I'm not talking about the "original manuscript". I'm saying, "original language". The NT was originally written in Greek. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I also believe scripture translates itself. I hear many different interpretations from various people, but if the bible doesn't explicitly state it in a clear language, then I do not believe it. "Hell" is not written in the original language of the bible, so therefore, I do not believe it. It seems to me that the concept of hell was made up and designed to scare people into the religion. Unfortunately, its having the opposite effect and its now pushing people away. The Gospel is supposed to be good news. Not bad news. I mean, if I tell you, "You can take this 20 million dollars or I can shoot you in the head." That wouldn't exactly be good news I'd be telling you. See what I'm saying?

The judgement and the Lake of Fire correspond to one another. The Lake of Fire is God's purifying fire designed to change the person's heart.

Sorry but that concept has nothing to do with what happens to a person after they die.
There is no 2nd chance to take Christ after you die.
The Gospel is ither believed and received here, whereby you can die pardoned and you meet God as Father, or a person can reject the Gospel here and die and meet God as Judge.
You get to choose, and God honors your choice for as long as he lives.

Where in the bible does it say that there's no 2nd chance to take Christ after you die? I'd love to read that passage in scripture.

Also, you make it sound like only the wicked are judged. Is this true? Are the godly *not* judged at all? Also, if that's the case, can you quote the scripture saying that, please?

Well, what if I wanted to reject Christ and live with God (if I'm Jewish). Are you saying God will honor my choice?

 

[Qchan]

Logic has nothing to do with the truth of God's Word.

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

JLB

I'm sorry, my friend. I will have to continue to disagree with you on this. The truth of God's Word is very logical. To say it has nothing to do with logic saddens me, and I wish you understood as much as I have. Thanks for replying to me. Lets just leave our conversation and agree to disagree, OK?

 

[Qchan]

Well, the problem with this idea is that we accept it as a parable, because we don't understand integrity. Many believers lack integrity and hence, think it's a parable.

however, Jesus quoted Abraham as saying something. That would mean Abraham actually said it, or Jesus is lying and misrepresenting God's man. Lacking integrity and not knowing what it looks like, would make someone thing Jesus made this story up to prove a point, when in fact, it actually happened, and Abraham said what he said.

Well... When speaking of the Rich Man and Lazarus, he was in front of the Pharisees. The bible says Jesus always spoke in parables to the crowds (Matthew 13:34). Even Jesus said it himself (Matthew 13:13). Are you suggesting that Jesus, perhaps, lied about when he speaks in parables and when he does not? Perhaps you're suggesting that the bible is wrong? Could you possibly go into a bit more detail about that?

 

[Deborah13]

So, what about the people alive before Christ was born? King David didn't believe in Christ,

Abraham didn't believe in Christ,

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

All the old testament saints believed in Jesus, the Messiah. They believed Moses and the prophets who wrote about Him. They looked forward to His coming.

 

[Brother Mike]

Well... When speaking of the Rich Man and Lazarus, he was in front of the Pharisees. The bible says Jesus always spoke in parables to the crowds (Matthew 13:34). Even Jesus said it himself (Matthew 13:13). Are you suggesting that Jesus, perhaps, lied about when he speaks in parables and when he does not? Perhaps you're suggesting that the bible is wrong? Could you possibly go into a bit more detail about that?

yes, to the great multitudes that thronged him, He spoke in Parables.

And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
(Mat 13:2)

Why?
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
(Mat 13:10-11)

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
(Mat 13:34-35)

So, when the multitudes gathered, Jesus spoke in Parables. Only the Jewish people who knew the Word and had ears to hear would understand what He was saying. The things of the Kingdom were not for the gentiles.

When the Pharisee's were just present though. Jesus did not always speak in Parables, but told them things straight out on how things worked.

Here the Sadducee's who did not believe in Resurrection try to trip him up.

And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
(Mar 12:24-25)

once again to the Pharisee's
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
(Mat 12:25-27)

so, to the many Jesus spoke in Parables, that only the Jews might hear and understand and many did and followed him.

To the religious rulers, Many times he just broke it down. I can bring up more examples if you need.

Jesus telling about Abraham:

Jesus was also talking to his disciples.
And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
(Luk 16:1)

The Pharisees also where there and heard and upset about the parable because they understood and were covetous.
And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
(Luk 16:14)

Since they understand and the disciples were also there, He tells of a real event of the place of the righteous dead, Sheol which the Pharisee's also believed was real. It's no Parable.

So, when the masses gathered, He spoke in Parables as not all were Jews.
When the religious leaders were just there and His disciples a lot of times he just broke it down and/or told a parable. Most the time they understood the parable and became angry.

 

[JLB]

I'm sorry, my friend. I will have to continue to disagree with you on this. The truth of God's Word is very logical. To say it has nothing to do with logic saddens me, and I wish you understood as much as I have. Thanks for replying to me. Lets just leave our conversation and agree to disagree, OK?

Please tell what part of this scripture do you disagree with?

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Jesus sentences these people to the everlasting fire, prepared for the devil.

Do you believe Jesus?

Do you believe the scriptures here in Matthew 25:41?

If you disagree, then you disagree with the plain words of Jesus Christ.


JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Sin willfully was to trample the blood covenant by which you were sanctified and count it a unholy thing, despite the Spirit of Grace. To know the truth of the Anointing, power, the World to come, and turn you back on God to be done with him.

David was not guilty of this. In fact I don't think David fully got it until Nathan told him a similar story and David said that is not right.

When teaching bible, we ought to only stick with Bible terms and concepts.

And therefore, your opinion as to what David understood and didn't understand is irrelevant.

 

[Brother Mike]

And therefore, your opinion as to what David understood and didn't understand is irrelevant.

Well, as long as your following my lead, and learning. That's a good place to start.

 

[Qchan]

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
Joh 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

All the old testament saints believed in Jesus, the Messiah. They believed Moses and the prophets who wrote about Him. They looked forward to His coming.

I believe you quoted me out of context. The important part you left out was, "Abraham's faith in God was counted for righteousness."
You also left out King David, Job and several other people. I'm afraid you missed the point I was making.

The point I was making is that their righteousness wasn't based on their belief in Christ. That covenant was not available then. Their righteousness was based on their faith in God.

What I want to argue is that, for one to understand the bible, they must first understand God's nature. Some people just shrug at the concept of hell and say, "Well, if its God's will, then so be it." They don't question it. However, if anyone would claim to know and understand God, they would know that hell contradicts God's nature. They would seek more understanding of who God is and what his love is all about. That's what I did, and the Holy Spirit led me to research the origins of the bible. That's when I found out some horrifying information. "Hell" is not a Christian concept, nor was its concept ever written in the bible. 5 minutes of studying the bible in its original inspired language shows that hell was never written. Suddenly, the bible became clear to me, and I understood every single passage.

 

[Qchan]

yes, to the great multitudes that thronged him, He spoke in Parables.

And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.
(Mat 13:2)

Why?
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
(Mat 13:10-11)

All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
(Mat 13:34-35)

So, when the multitudes gathered, Jesus spoke in Parables. Only the Jewish people who knew the Word and had ears to hear would understand what He was saying. The things of the Kingdom were not for the gentiles.

When the Pharisee's were just present though. Jesus did not always speak in Parables, but told them things straight out on how things worked.

Here the Sadducee's who did not believe in Resurrection try to trip him up.

And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
(Mar 12:24-25)

once again to the Pharisee's
And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
(Mat 12:25-27)

so, to the many Jesus spoke in Parables, that only the Jews might hear and understand and many did and followed him.

To the religious rulers, Many times he just broke it down. I can bring up more examples if you need.

Jesus telling about Abraham:

Jesus was also talking to his disciples.
And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.
(Luk 16:1)

The Pharisees also where there and heard and upset about the parable because they understood and were covetous.
And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
(Luk 16:14)

Since they understand and the disciples were also there, He tells of a real event of the place of the righteous dead, Sheol which the Pharisee's also believed was real. It's no Parable.

So, when the masses gathered, He spoke in Parables as not all were Jews.
When the religious leaders were just there and His disciples a lot of times he just broke it down and/or told a parable. Most the time they understood the parable and became angry.

Hey, thanks for replying.

You've confused me again
I wanted to just point out that the Rich Man and Lazarus parable is, in fact, a parable. Do you agree with this?

 

[Qchan]

Please tell what part of this scripture do you disagree with?

41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Jesus sentences these people to the everlasting fire, prepared for the devil.

Do you believe Jesus?

Do you believe the scriptures here in Matthew 25:41?

If you disagree, then you disagree with the plain words of Jesus Christ.


JLB

Whoops!
Maybe I've been a bit unclear. I don't disagree with scripture. I disagree with you in particular. You said logic had nothing to do with the word of God. I disagree with that notion. God's word is logical and concise. If it wasn't logical, then the bible would be filled with contradictions and fallacies. Clearly, the word of God is not. So, once again, I agree wholeheartedly with the word of God, I just disagree with you and your opinions.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I just posted on a "one flesh" thread. If you are One with Christ, the part of yourself that is joined to Christ is very righteous!

Ephesians 5:31-32 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."This is a profound mystery - but I am talking about Christ and the church.

I love that part of me, that is connected to Christ. I submit to him.

Jesus's self-righteous, is submission to the Father.
Philippians 2:6-8 Who, being the very nature God, did not consider equality with God, something to be grasped. but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!

So when we say self-righteous, it is not the world's (self-righteous) It is a self-righteous that looks like a servant. A true heart of a servant.

 

[Qchan]

I just posted on a "one flesh" thread. If you are One with Christ, the part of yourself that is joined to Christ is very righteous!

Ephesians 5:31-32 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."This is a profound mystery - but I am talking about Christ and the church.

I love that part of me, that is connected to Christ. I submit to him.

Jesus's self-righteous, is submission to the Father.
Philippians 2:6-8 Who, being the very nature God, did not consider equality with God, something to be grasped. but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!

So when we say self-righteous, it is not the world's (self-righteous) It is a self-righteous that looks like a servant. A true heart of a servant.

Hi.
Can you find a verse that says anything about a person acquiring righteousness by his own effort? I mean, that's what self-righteousness means, afterall.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Hi.
Can you find a verse that says anything about a person acquiring righteousness by his own effort? I mean, that's what self-righteousness means, afterall.

John 14:20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

 

[Kidron]

Sin willfully was to trample the blood covenant by which you were sanctified and count it a unholy thing, despite the Spirit of Grace. To know the truth of the Anointing, power, the World to come, and turn you back on God to be done with him.

And what you are describing is the typical person in America, who has heard the Gospel 3456789 times, has been in church during an alter call and is gripping the back of the pew with white knuckles resisting getting saved.
Is anything more obvious then connecting that, with the scripture you posted?
Those Hebrews were resisting the Gospel, and they were being warned that its not easy to come to this same place of conviction-repentance again.
They are exactly like the unbeliever who is standing next to you in Church on Sunday, during the alter call, and is visibly shaking as they are so strongly resisting the call of the Holy Spirit to go down front, or however the Pastor is beckoning them to "receive the Lord Jesus Christ and be Saved".
The Hebrews are standing there sweating, resisting, and Paul is telling them......"dont sin willfully like that, because THAT SIN is going to find you in HELL".
This is so obvious.

 

[JLB]

Whoops!
Maybe I've been a bit unclear. I don't disagree with scripture. I disagree with you in particular. You said logic had nothing to do with the word of God. I disagree with that notion. God's word is logical and concise. If it wasn't logical, then the bible would be filled with contradictions and fallacies. Clearly, the word of God is not. So, once again, I agree wholeheartedly with the word of God, I just disagree with you and your opinions.

So you agree with God's Word, when He says these words to those he sentences to the everlasting fire.


41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. John 10:28

If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. Matthew 18:8


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

I believe you quoted me out of context. The important part you left out was, "Abraham's faith in God was counted for righteousness."
You also left out King David, Job and several other people. I'm afraid you missed the point I was making.

I was addressing the your statement that Abraham didn't believe in the coming Messiah, which is one of the things that he believed God about.
Gen 15:6 And he hath believed in Yehovah, and He reckoneth it to him--righteousness.
Gen 26:5 because that Abraham hath hearkened to My voice, and keepeth My charge, My commands, My statutes, and My laws.'
God told Abraham many things that are not written down in the Word as 26:5 shows. We don't know everything God told Abraham.

As for David specifically he wrote at least a portion of this song about the Messiah. Psalms 22, here's some of those verses.
Psa 22:16 And to the dust of death thou appointest me, For surrounded me have dogs, A company of evil doers have compassed me, Piercing my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I count all my bones--they look expectingly, They look upon me,
Psa 22:18 They apportion my garments to themselves, And for my clothing they cause a lot to fall.

The second verse I quoted of Jesus' words, says that if anyone believed Moses', who was a prophet and wrote about Him, they would believe Him. That would include All people would it not?

The point I was making is that their righteousness wasn't based on their belief in Christ. That covenant was not available then. Their righteousness was based on their faith in God.

Their faith, just as ours, was based on "Believing God". Not just in Him but in what He said and showed them/us, wouldn't you agree?