Self Righteousness

[Qchan]

Where did I ever indicate, or assume that? Essentially, you are accusing me of having a position of universalism. I totally reject universalism.

I'm not a universalist, btw. I was a Pentecostal for most of my life.

No, Scripture says that ONLY the Redeemed are forgiven.

Where does the bible say this? Find me a verse that specifically says, "Only the redeemed are forgiven".

Then the person gets his just reward for acknowledging the evidence of Jesus Christ, which are manifest in nature. hERE IS YOUR AANSWER FROM sCRIPTURE:

Romans 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse​

Holy Spirit cannot forgive anything; that is the sole prerogative of God the Father, and He proclaims us forgiven or unforgiven based upon our faith, which like in the case of Abram justifies us.

The sole prerogative of God the Father?
Jesus was able to forgive sins (Luke 7:48). So, looks like God the Father isn't the only person in the godhead who can forgive sins

ONLY???
I hope that you are not considering the only unforgivable sin to be trivial.

My job here is simply to inform you of the truth. There are many people confused about the bible, and telling people that Jesus died on the cross to forgive all of men's sins, but then say, "except that one sin over there". It simply causes more confusion to tell people that there's something they can do that can never be forgiven no matter what.

Near Death Experiences (NDE) are not mentioned in the Bible, and are relatively a new phenomenon since Kubler-Ross wrote her book On Death and Dying.

For a time filler while I was going on a long journey, I purchased a book on that subject. the blurbs ib the back cov3er proclaimed it to be an excellent book. the trouble in that book is that that the author was spouting off Mormon theology, and claiming that "Heaven was like Mormon theology". My point in posting that is NOT to put their theology down, (which is abhorrent IMO) but to state that if they were genuine in any way, two things would happen by necessity:

1) They would all point to Jesus Christ as the only Savior of humanity.
2) They would all have a unity of purpose and events, they don't, and they contradict each other.
3) absolutely NONE of them point to Jesus Christ an the Lord of Lords, king of kings, and returning soon to earth to judge all humanity, dead or alive.​

.
I am hoping that you can see and understand why I say things as I do.

My dear friend.

What do you think an NDE is? Do you think these people are going to heaven? The people who experience these things note that they are not in heaven. They appear to be experiencing the judgement. This is why each experience is so different.

My plan isn't to convince you. God would first need to open your heart for that to happen. I'm simply informing you of a few things you may be unaware of. Every Christian will go to heaven and meet Jesus. There's no doubt about that. However, proper edification of the gospel is met to make life bearable until that day comes.

 

[iLOVE]

Guess I got confused when you said living by faith is doing a work. I understand we live by faith, but I don't know if I would call it work. Is living work? You could say the life we have been given is the work of God. But is living work?

Listen folks, each one of us has a job to do. I can't say where or when we will be called upon to do a work but everything we do is furthering the kingdom. Of course people can see good works. Even writing a good post is a good work. There's a reason God gave us faith and that is to call us to eternal life and to do good works according to his will.

Preaching the gospel, feeding and clothing the poor, ministering to the sick, visiting widows and orphans, visiting the prisoners in prison.

So, for example, I can say I have faith, but if I do not write a post as the Spirit directs me, then I'm not doing my job. So faith apart from works is dead. James 2:26

When you accept Jesus Christ, you accept Jesus Christ through faith. By grace are you save through faith. Now you are to live your life by faith. Two different things. Trusting Christ for salvation is receiving a gift. Living by faith is doing a work. That is why the bible says in James 2 faith without works is dead. He is not talking about getting to Heaven, but to get Heaven down to you. Accepting Christ as your savior takes you to Heaven. Living by faith brings Heaven to you.

 

[Kidron]

Accepting Christ as your savior takes you to Heaven. Living by faith brings Heaven to you.

Salvation vs Discipleship.
Exactly.

 

[Brother Mike]

Yes, the Qu'ran teaches that Jesus is a "messenger" of Allah.
It also teaches that drinking camel urine is healthy and that the "angel" who dictated-gave the Qu'ran to Mohammed has 600 wings and is the same one that spoke to Mary about her pregnancy.

Ive been trying to figure out where you would put those 600 wings,.... but on the other hand.... as all Angels are male in "form" with no wings, i guess we have a final answer.
(sorry allah).

600 wings? I am thinking BBQ. yea.

 

[Kidron]

600 wings? I am thinking BBQ. yea.

Fries with that ??

 

[MarkT]

When you accept Jesus Christ, you accept Jesus Christ through faith. By grace are you save through faith. Now you are to live your life by faith. Two different things. Trusting Christ for salvation is receiving a gift. Living by faith is doing a work. That is why the bible says in James 2 faith without works is dead. He is not talking about getting to Heaven, but to get Heaven down to you. Accepting Christ as your savior takes you to Heaven. Living by faith brings Heaven to you.

I understand that keeping his commandments is living by faith. This implies a belief and an understanding that comes from God. Paul writes 'He who through faith is righteous shall live' Ro. 1:17 and God justifies him who has faith in Jesus Ro. 3:22. But James is referring to specific works, good works, deeds that can be seen, as he says, 'Show me your faith apart from works and I by my works will show you my faith'. He refers to Abraham's work when he offered his son upon the altar. James 2:21 Again, a specific work that can be seen. Likewise when he says if a man says he has faith but has not works, can his faith save him? If a brother or a sister is in need, ill clad or in need of food, and one of you says, 'Go in peace' without giving them the things they need for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. James 1:14-17.

So James is not talking about Heaven and there's nothing about living by faith is doing a work.

 

[MarkT]

In fact James is consistent with Mt. 25:34-46

34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[MarkT]

So what are the works we should do?

Jesus is pretty specific - clothing and feeding his brethren, visiting his brethren in prison, ministering to his brethren who may be sick.

 

[reba]

widows and the fatherless

 

[Kidron]

but the righteous into eternal life.”

And those "righteous" are the born again believers.
This is obvious as Matthew was written before any were made righteous by the Blood of Christ.
So there is "none righteous, no not one" .... Romans 3:10, until they are justified by God....Romans 3:21-28, and of course this can only happen after Jesus hangs on a cross.

 

[Kidron]

widows and the fatherless

and remember the poor.

Galatians 2:10

 

[By Grace]

I'm not a universalist, btw. I was a Pentecostal for most of my life.
Where does the bible say this? Find me a verse that specifically says, "Only the redeemed are forgiven".

You have my sympathy for being Pentecostal.

Ephesians 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:​

.
You see that In Christ, we have the means of forgiveness; but it is only God the Father, who, when He sees the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, given to us as a matter of faith given to us that He, God the Father sees us as having the same status as His Son, Jesus that he forgives our sin.

when we pray the Lord's Prayer, who is it that we ask to forgive our sinss? Is it God the Father, or Jesus the Son?

The sole prerogative of God the Father?
Jesus was able to forgive sins (Luke 7:48). So, looks like God the Father isn't the only person in the godhead who can forgive sins

I just demonstrated that in the above answer.

My job here is simply to inform you of the truth. There are many people confused about the bible, and telling people that Jesus died on the cross to forgive all of men's sins, but then say, "except that one sin over there". It simply causes more confusion to tell people that there's something they can do that can never be forgiven no matter what.

You are insinuating something that I did not say. Instead, it was Jesus, who said ALL sins can be forgiven except blasphemy against Holy Spirit. So respectfully, I say that your quarrel is not with me, but with Jesus, who said those words.

My dear friend.
What do you think an NDE is? Do you think these people are going to heaven? The people who experience these things note that they are not in heaven. They appear to be experiencing the judgement. This is why each experience is so different.

You may believe in NDEs, but I do not because they are NOT mentioned in the Bible and are subjective accounts of what the person remembers when "clinically dead". My opinion of them is twofold:

1) Because they are NOT mentioned in the Bible, it is a very dangerous thing to place any trust in them as accounts of reality.
2) Because ALL of them do not lift up Jesus Christ, and give Him the praise and glory due only unto Him, they must come from a source that does not want Jesus Christ glorified. There is only one being who wants to take glory away from Jesus, and that is Lucifer, the Enemy of our soul.
​

That is why I am very leery of giving any credit to, or deriving any doctrines from anything other than Scripture, God's inerrant Word.

My plan isn't to convince you. God would first need to open your heart for that to happen. I'm simply informing you of a few things you may be unaware of. Every Christian will go to heaven and meet Jesus. There's no doubt about that. .

One of the first rules of Bible is "Any Bible verse ripped from its context is a pretext 100% of the time." Please look at the context. You will never see Jesus saying "I forgive you."; instead, He says "Your sins are forgiven.". How does He know that? It must be obvious that God His Father told Him so.The reason for that is that she first believed that Jesus was the Messiah, and then she worshiped Him by anointing his feet. There is no essential difference between what Abram did, and what she did because faith came first, and later on, action followed.

However, proper edification of the gospel is met to make life bearable until that day comes

No, it is not the Gospel, it is Jesus Who must be lifted up.

John 12: 32 And I [Jesus speaking] , if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
​

Finally, I note that excepting for taking a verse out of its context, you have not mentioned any Scripture. By contrast, I have attempted to support everything by Scriptures directly, or else I alluded to it.

 

[reba]

You have my sympathy for being Pentecostal.

 

[Qchan]

You have my sympathy for being Pentecostal.

Ephesians 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:​

.
You see that In Christ, we have the means of forgiveness; but it is only God the Father, who, when He sees the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, given to us as a matter of faith given to us that He, God the Father sees us as having the same status as His Son, Jesus that he forgives our sin.

Uh... No.
What you quoted does not say "only the redeemed are saved." Yes, through Christ we are redeemed, but it's isn't exclusive. Also, these verses don't say only the Father can forgive sins.

Speaking of denominations. What denomination are you? I hope I don't offend you by suggesting this, but it feels like you're a Calvinist. Is this true?

I believe it's important to understand where the root of your beliefs are grounded before we continue.

 

[By Grace]

Uh... No.
(1) What you quoted does not say "only the redeemed are saved." Yes, through Christ we are redeemed, but it's isn't exclusive. Also, these verses don't say only the Father can forgive sins.

(2) Speaking of denominations. What denomination are you? I hope I don't offend you by suggesting this, but it feels like you're a Calvinist. Is this true?

(3) I believe it's important to understand where the root of your beliefs are grounded before we continue.

(1) You will never get the Bible to say that phrase. What I did is to demonstrate the truth of that statement by using several Scriptures

Matthew 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses

So now it is before you in both a positive and a negative statement AND FROM THE MOUTH OF JESUS that it is indeed iit is God the Father Who forgives sins.

I am not offended, but I refuse to discuss Calvinism or Arminianism because only the Enemy of our soul wins in those "discussions". The same thing holds true to exposing my denomination. I am an individual, not a theology, or denomination. However I will state that only the Southern Baptists have more missionaries than we do.

(3) My beliefs are centered in the Bible. If the Bible does not mention it directly, or infer it in many different places (such as the Trinity) it does not exist, such as NDEs.

Now speaking of the Bible, you will notice that I stated every position I hold, and backed it up with Scripture. You have not provided more than one Scripture (if that) to refute what you believe are my beliefs. I request that you read the sticky at the top of this from Obidiah [admin]

[admin]

 

[Kidron]

The God of Abraham had a son named Jesus. Allah has no son.

Now someone might hand me 1,000 dollar and tell me to give it to Kidron. A strange name for sure to name someone. .

Its an interesting name, isnt it?
"Kidron".
Taken from the location in Jerusalem that is next to the temple mount.
Has seen a lot of biblical activity, and its not that far from where i stay.

here is a video you might like.
---

 

[LovethroughDove]

It took me a minute when I saw your name here, to understand why you chose it.

Thank you for this video! I will be able to actually see it in person in 2 months. God has given me an opportunity!

 

[Brother Mike]

Its an interesting name, isnt it?
"Kidron".
Taken from the location in Jerusalem that is next to the temple mount.
Has seen a lot of biblical activity, and its not that far from where i stay.

here is a video you might like.

Pretty cool. Thank you for the video. Glad my mom did not choose Sodom.

In this forum section, we are suppose to stay on topic which I am guilty and use scriptures. Obdiaha does clean up post that do not stick to the rules. [admin]

Blessings.

 

[MarkT]

Neither can save him.
God saves thru Christ as a Gift.
The Gift of pardon is given based on your faith and this gift is completed as soon as its applied.
We are not born again as a process over the next 45 months or 52 years.....We are born again instantly as Sons of God.
Grace is salvation without works.
Works, which are subsequent to Salvation and not in place of it, are a outpouring of our love and appreciation in word and deed for what God has done for us.

What do you mean neither can save him? Our faith in Jesus is what keeps us going. We will be justified by our faith in him. Our sins won't be counted against us because of him. God is faithful to his word. He justifies him who has faith in Jesus. Ro. 3:26 We live my faith and every word that comes from the mouth of God.

I don't know what you mean by completed. If God forgives you your trespasses, but you do not forgive those who trespass against you, what do you think God will do? Jesus said, 'but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses'. Mt. 6:15 So how is this gift of pardon completed as soon as it is applied?

Grace means goodwill. We stand in God's goodwill. 'Grace to you all' - It's like a blessing, like saying may God's goodwill abound.

Salvation refers to the saving of your soul from the second death. So to be saved you must continue in the faith until the day of judgment. Paul said, 'you stand fast only through faith' Ro. 11:20 Then he said, 'Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off' Ro. 11:22.

 

[Brother Mike]

Grace is salvation without works.

Without faith, There is no Grace to latch onto.

saying Grace is Salvation without Works leads to thinking about the "Free Grace" Doctrine which is not what Grace is at all.

Grace is earned as one continues with the Lord.