Self Righteousness

[Kidron]

It took me a minute when I saw your name here, to understand why you chose it.

Thank you for this video! I will be able to actually see it in person in 2 months. God has given me an opportunity!

That is GREAT NEWS.
Im so happy for you.
The weather is perfect, and you'll love being in Israel.
Welcome

 

[Kidron]

Pretty cool. Thank you for the video. Glad my mom did not choose Sodom.

In this forum section, we are suppose to stay on topic which I am guilty and use scriptures. Obdiaha does clean up post that do not stick to the rules.[admin]

Blessings.

Thats not a problem.
But if you post another Post here, that uses my forum name in it 45 times as you try to be clever, then i'll probably go "off topic" again.


and blessings to you..

K

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I wonder is anyone else it seeing it, the way I see it? Not that without Christ we are righteous, but when we are connected to God through the Holy Spirit we "are" righteous.........and that would be self-righteous? I don't want to blaspheme the Holy Spirit in myself.

I see what you're saying. I saw it the first time you posted it. In fact, my first post in this thread was going to be along these lines.

The church has become so hyper-sensitive to any suggestion of a human doing something righteous, for fear of being labeled self-righteous, that they miss where the scriptures talk about righteousness in terms of what we do because we have the righteousness of Christ in us. Righteousness to them is ALWAYS referring to the declaration of Christ's righteousness given to us as a free gift, oblivious to the fact that righteousness is to then play out in the members of our bodies. That's why God gave it to us.

"Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness." (James 3:18 NASB)

"17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17-18 NASB)

.

 

[Kidron]

Christ's righteousness given to us as a free gift, oblivious to the fact that righteousness is to then play out in the members of our bodies. That's why God gave it to us.

JB,

i agree with you that we as Christians are to be ambassadors for Christ and to live according to a standard that would prove we belong to God.
Absolutely.
However, God didnt give us salvation so that we could then run out there doing works as his reason for saving us.
He gave us salvation because he loves us., and for no other reason.
"For God so loved the world that he GAVE".
And this giving is not conditioned upon us being good little Christ Like Robots after we are born again.
God is looking for Family, and that is a big part of why he went to such an extreme to remake us as a part of his family.
God's love is UNCONDITIONAL, and salvation is an expression of this unconditional love.
There is no earning it, and there is no keeping it....there is only God giving it and that giving is free.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I see what you're saying. I saw it the first time you posted it. In fact, my first post in this thread was going to be along these lines.

The church has become so hyper-sensitive to any suggestion of a human doing something righteous, for fear of being labeled self-righteous, that they miss where the scriptures talk about righteousness in terms of what we do because we have the righteousness of Christ in us. Righteousness to them is ALWAYS referring to the declaration of Christ's righteousness given to us as a free gift, oblivious to the fact that righteousness is to then play out in the members of our bodies. That's why God gave it to us.

"Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness." (James 3:18 NASB)

"17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17-18 NASB)

.

Yes, and yes. Peacemakers and righteousness. Peace and joy in the Holy Spirit = Righteousness that is pleasing to God

Love that Jethro!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

JB,

i agree with you that we as Christians are to be ambassadors for Christ and to live according to a standard that would prove we belong to God.
Absolutely.
However, God didnt give us salvation so that we could then run out there doing works as his reason for saving us.
He gave us salvation because he loves us., and for no other reason.

If I prove you wrong with a single scripture will you publicly admit you were wrong? Are you humble enough to do that?

[Response to deleted post]

 

[Brother Mike]

Grace is earned?
Wow, talking about doing despite to the Spirit of Grace and taking the Credit for the Blood Atonement by giving yourself credit by "earning it".
To say you earn grace, is to say you earn your own salvation.
Is this what Keith Moore Ministries defines as the Gospel and the Gift of Salvation?
Listen,
The grace of God is a Free Gift.

There ya go again. There should be a point where I say something, and it comes to your memory what scriptures I am referring to.
what did I say? Grace is earned as we continue with the Lord.

I feel like Moses. Shall I fetch your scriptures also? Then again, that got Moses in trouble.

 

[Kidron]

There ya go again. There should be a point where I say something, and it comes to your memory what scriptures I am referring to.
what did I say? Grace is earned as we continue with the Lord.

.

if you are teaching that Grace is earned and not supplied freely, when God said that its a free gift., then you are not teaching the truth.
You are not even speaking about Salvation when you are claiming that "Grace" is a part of works.
you are teaching some odd type of religion, where God accepts us, if we earn his Grace.
Hey fella, that is exactly the Opposite of Salvation, in case you are not aware.
Now, i know that your pastor Keith Moore does not teach that Grace is earned.
He would never teach that you earn Grace, and if he does teach that, then he is also not teaching the truth.
So, i wonder why you are teaching this mess?
And about moses.......In John we read that the Law came by Moses, but Grace and Truth came by Jesus.

 

[Brother Mike]

if you are teaching that Grace is earned and not supplied freely, when God said that its a free gift., then you are not teaching the truth.
You are not even speaking about Salvation when you are claiming that "Grace" is a part of works.
you are teaching some odd type of religion, where God accepts us, if we earn his Grace.

So, i wonder why you are teaching this mess?

Let's look at this "mess"

Amazing thing, is that you ought to be learning. I never mentioned healing or the Greek word translated Salvation.

Jesus had to increase in Grace.
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
(Luk 2:52)

Jesus increased in God's Grace. Now if Jesus had to increase in God's Grace, how is it possible we just skip that step? We do things better than Jesus?

Paul speaking about praying for Grace to witness.
For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves; Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
(2Co 8:3-4)

Grace given if a person humbles themselves.
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
(1Pe 5:5)

Holding bitterness can hinder God's Grace:
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
(Heb 12:15)

Grace (God's power to do what we can't, with Favor) can increase.
Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
(2Co 8:7)

Giving, increases Grace to gain material things that we abound and equipped to do every good work.
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
(2Co 9:8)

I could keep going, but you should have known at least One of these scriptures.

Have to wash Gma's car. Be back later.

 

[Kidron]

Let's look at this "mess"

Amazing thing, is that you ought to be learning. I never mentioned healing or the Greek word translated Salvation.

Jesus had to increase in Grace.
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
(Luk 2:52)

Jesus increased in God's Grace. Now if Jesus had to increase in God's Grace, how is it possible we just skip that step? We do things better than Jesus?
.

I suppose the problem is that you are talking about the process from "baby Christian" to "Full Stature" Man of God.
And you are describing how God enables a believer to continue to "grow in grace".
The issue is, im talking about Salvation, and the gift of righteousness, that is known as "GRACE".
You are talking about enabling power for deeds as >a< grace.
We are not talking about the same thing.

So, let me ask you this so that we can end up on the same page, or not.

Do you believe that anything outside of the Blood Atonement allows God to accept us and redeem us as his born again Children for all eternity?
Do you believe that this Blood Atonement, this "Salvation", this redemption that Christ purchased with his blood.. is a free gift that we dont earn or work to keep?

 

[WIP]

I am posting this in red so hopefully it will be noticed. I am seeing too much animosity being thrown around. Let's get back to following the A&T forum guidelines lest I be forced to close the thread. This is the Apologetics forum. Apologetics is not about whom can out-argue whom. It is about properly dividing scripture to arrive at the truth so let's use scripture to back up our arguments and back off the personal innuendos and snarly jabs.

 

[Brother Mike]

And you are describing how God enables a believer to continue to "grow in grace".

Amazing, that is what I first stated.

Grace is earned as one continues with the Lord.

So then, if Grace can increase more and more, then righteousness (Right standing with) can also increase.

Mat_5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
2Co_3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(2Co 3:18)

So then, leaving behind repentance from dead works, and the free grace given to all who will believe. There must be something we do that others don't that make way for God to increase his Grace and our right-standing with him. A made (Self) righteous.

As God told Eli, they that Honour me, I shall Honour (honor)

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
(Joh 8:29)

 

[Kidron]

Do you expect that o

So then, if Grace can increase more and more, then righteousness (Right standing with) can also increase.
Mat_5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
There must be something we do that others don't that make way for God to increase his Grace and our right-standing with him. A made (Self) righteous.

(Joh 8:29)

What you have posted here is a very clear presentation.
You are simply stating that we are saved over time, as we grow in grace, and in fact become more saved the more we mature in God's grace.
And i have to tell you.
Ive never actually heard such an unusual theology.
You pastor Keith Moore does not preach this theology.
So, i wonder where you got it.

See, my bible tells me that Jesus said i must be "born again", so, i then go to Paul in 2 Cornin 15:3 -8 to find out what the Gospel is, and then i "believe on" The Lord Jesus by faith, and God then imputes his very righteousness to me, and from that very second i am a "joint heir" Romans 8:17 with Christ and im now, "seated in Heavenly places". Eph 2:6.
So, all that is finished., and i cant become more saved or eternally secure.
Im "in Christ", im a "new Creation", and im as saved as God can save me, instantly.
I dont grow in anything to be more saved, or to evolve my salvation, as you are teaching.
And this scripture that you posted as your proof that i have to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees, to try to prove i have to do this myself as a continuing of my growth in Grace to be accepted by my FATHER in Heaven after im SAVED, is just amazing, as it totally disputes and rejects the free gift of Righteousness ... Romans 4:8,... that God gives to all who come to Jesus and are born again... John 3:7

so, i guess what you are doing is teaching a "works for salvation" theology that is disguising itself as a "grow in grace" ideology.
Interesting.

 

[Brother Mike]

I never said anything about getting saved. I gave you scriptures where Grace and righteousness can be increased beyond "Saving Grace" We are talking about a self building up of right standing with God.

 

[Kidron]

I never said anything about getting saved. I gave you scriptures where Grace and righteousness can be increased beyond "Saving Grace" We are talking about a self building up of right standing with God.

No, you showed me verses, and some of them have the word "grace" in them, and if they didnt you then twisted them to explain why they should to suit your concepts.
And how can can you possibly think that "righteousness", can be increased, when in fact Its the very righteousness of God himself that is given to you, based on the blood atonement, thru your faith?
You actually are stating that "righteousness can be increased" by works, by marturing.
Really?

You are going to increase the Righteousness of God, that is YOURS, by doing stuff and becoming a "better" Christian .
Thats pretty interesting opinion you have there.
Now, had you said a Christian, as a disciple, can become more Christ like in his behavior over time, then we could agree.
But thats not what you are suggesting., unfortunately.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Let's look at this "mess"

Amazing thing, is that you ought to be learning. I never mentioned healing or the Greek word translated Salvation.

Jesus had to increase in Grace.
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
(Luk 2:52)

Jesus increased in God's Grace. Now if Jesus had to increase in God's Grace, how is it possible we just skip that step? We do things better than Jesus?

Paul speaking about praying for Grace to witness.
For to their power, I bear record, yea, and beyond their power they were willing of themselves; Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.
(2Co 8:3-4)

Grace given if a person humbles themselves.
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
(1Pe 5:5)

Holding bitterness can hinder God's Grace:
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
(Heb 12:15)

Grace (God's power to do what we can't, with Favor) can increase.
Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
(2Co 8:7)

Giving, increases Grace to gain material things that we abound and equipped to do every good work.
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
(2Co 9:8)

I could keep going, but you should have known at least One of these scriptures.

Have to wash Gma's car. Be back later.

One of the most powerful and profound posts I've ever read.

 

[MarkT]

Yes, and yes. Peacemakers and righteousness. Peace and joy in the Holy Spirit = Righteousness that is pleasing to God

Love that Jethro!

Except self righteousness has a negative connotation; like judging others and thinking highly of yourself.

So self righteousness is really you justifying yourself.

 

[MarkT]

JB,

i agree with you that we as Christians are to be ambassadors for Christ and to live according to a standard that would prove we belong to God.
Absolutely.
However, God didnt give us salvation so that we could then run out there doing works as his reason for saving us.
He gave us salvation because he loves us., and for no other reason.
"For God so loved the world that he GAVE".
And this giving is not conditioned upon us being good little Christ Like Robots after we are born again.
God is looking for Family, and that is a big part of why he went to such an extreme to remake us as a part of his family.
God's love is UNCONDITIONAL, and salvation is an expression of this unconditional love.
There is no earning it, and there is no keeping it....there is only God giving it and that giving is free.

Actually when you are born of the Spirit of God your heart and soul and mind do begin to conform to the image of his Son.
Romans 8:29
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren.

 

[LovethroughDove]

Except self righteousness has a negative connotation; like judging others and thinking highly of yourself.

So self righteousness is really you justifying yourself.

I really am torn about this. It does have a negative connotation. I feel like if I say I'm not righteous, then I'm blaspheming the Holy Spirit that is connected with my spirit now.

"the two become one" mystery of Christ and his church. I said it is a paradox earlier and I think I still feel that way.

This picture looks righteous to me: Revelation 19:8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear."

 

[MarkT]

It's a spiritual thing. God gives growth.

It's not easy to understand. For example, if grace means goodwill according to the dictionary, it also suggests kindness and mercy and forgiveness and compassion and love. So it is possible to grow and mature. It can also refer to rewards to be received when the Lord Jesus returns ie. a crown of glory.