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(Some) OSASers must believe that God created human robots!

JLB said:
The end of your faith is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9

He who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13


Once your saved by believing the Gospel, you have faith in Christ for salvation.


JLB
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Let's take theses passages and place emphasis on various words:

Your view first:
The end of your faith is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9

He who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

I see your point. I do recognize that Scriptures like these show faith is required till the end.

The OSAS emphasis, however, is there also:

The end of your faith is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9

He who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

How do you think Peter can confidently say that faith IS salvation? Is it a 50/50 toss up? No! I mean theoretically one could have faith till the end and still not receive salvation. God could just arbitrarily just change the rules and say, nevermind. However, we know that's not true.

Same thing for Jesus' use of "will be saved". If Jesus says it, it "will" come true.

For non-OSAS to be taught in these verses they would say:

The end of your faith is most likely the salvation of your soul.

He who endures to the end might be saved. Matthew 24:13

However, as they appear to us now, you have your emphasis and I have mine. It just depends on where and Who we place the emphasis.

Maybe you've never been taught this.
 
chessman said:
Let's take theses passages and place emphasis on various words:

Your view first:
The end of your faith is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9

He who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

I see your point. I do recognize that Scriptures like these show faith is required till the end.

The OSAS emphasis, however, is there also:

The end of your faith is the salvation of your soul. 1 Peter 1:9

He who endures to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13

How do you think Peter can confidently say that faith IS salvation? Is it a 50/50 toss up? No! I mean theoretically one could have faith till the end and still not receive salvation. God could just arbitrarily just change the rules and say, nevermind. However, we know that's not true.

Same thing for Jesus' use of "will be saved". If Jesus says it, it "will" come true.

For non-OSAS to be taught in these verses they would say:

The end of your faith is most likely the salvation of your soul.

He who endures to the end might be saved. Matthew 24:13

However, as they appear to us now, you have your emphasis and I have mine. It just depends on where and Who we place the emphasis.

Maybe you've never been taught this.
Click to expand...


OSAS assumes that salvation is guaranteed and can not be lost for any reason.

Once saved always saved is simply not a biblical doctrine.

If a person who is saved and continues to present his members to sin, then that will lead to death.

If a person who is saved continues to practice the very sins he was saved from, then he will not inherit the kingdom of God.

If a person who is saved and decides to covert to another religion (apostate) then that person has turned away from Christ and gone after other gods.

If a person who is saved, but take the mark and worships the beast then they will be lost.


JLB
 
JLB said:
If a person who is saved and continues to present his members to sin, then that will lead to death.

If a person who is saved continues to practice the very sins he was saved from, then he will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Click to expand...

These two propositions say the exact same thing.
If one is truly saved they are a new creature in Christ and indwelled by the Holy Spirit. They are sanctified by the Holy Spirit. We cannot sanctify ourselves. We do not make ourselves holy.

If a person who is saved and decides to covert to another religion (apostate) then that person has turned away from Christ and gone after other gods.

If a person who is saved, but take the mark and worships the beast then they will be lost.

JLB
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Once again these two propositions are saying the same thing. Apostasy is to worship (believe in for salvation, be obedient to) anything or anyone other than the Lord.
 
Deborah13 said:
These two propositions say the exact same thing.
If one is truly saved they are a new creature in Christ and indwelled by the Holy Spirit. They are sanctified by the Holy Spirit. We cannot sanctify ourselves. We do not make ourselves holy..
Click to expand...

If a person is saved then turns away from Christ or practices an moral lifestyle or takes the mark of the beast, then that person will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There are many warnings and scriptures to support this statement.

Would you like to discuss each and every one. Many have been presented already.


JLB
 
agua. said:
Sounds like salvation is a bit iffy :biggrin
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If people are taught that they can never ever lose their salvation no matter what they do or how they live, (OSAS) then there is no reason for them to live a holy sanctified disciplined lifestyle and their salvation becomes very very iffy!

Great post!

I agree!


JLB
 
Deborah13 said:
If one is truly saved they are a new creature in Christ and indwelled by the Holy Spirit. They are sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
Statements like this I struggle with. If I understand correctly, you're basically saying a saved person cannot sin and if that is true then nobody has been saved because all have sinned.
 
WIP said:
Statements like this I struggle with. If I understand correctly, you're basically saying a saved person cannot sin and if that is true then nobody has been saved because all have sinned.
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This is interesting WIP and very relevant imo. What sends a person to hell in your opinion?
 
JLB said:
If a person is saved then turns away from Christ or practices an moral lifestyle or takes the mark of the beast, then that person will not inherit the kingdom of God.

There are many warnings and scriptures to support this statement.

Would you like to discuss each and every one. Many have been presented already.


JLB
Click to expand...

No you are asking if I want to argue for OSAS. How can I do that when I am not convinced that OSAS is true?
 
WIP said:
Statements like this I struggle with. If I understand correctly, you're basically saying a saved person cannot sin and if that is true then nobody has been saved because all have sinned.
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No I'm not saying that a person cannot sin if they are saved. What a lie that would be! And I can prove it by looking in the mirror.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The believer is both sancitified (holy) and justified by the blood of Christ.

1Co_7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Here we see that the unbelieving parent is considered holy by God, if not their children would not be holy and could never be priests of God. But that does not mean they are saved because they must also be justified by the blood of Christ.

Heb_10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

So I see that being sanctified (considered holy by God) does not mean that one is saved, and for those who are saved it does not mean that they are sinless.
 
Deborah13 said:
No I'm not saying that a person cannot sin if they are saved. What a lie that would be! And I can prove it by looking in the mirror.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The believer is both sancitified (holy) and justified by the blood of Christ.

1Co_7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Here we see that the unbelieving parent is considered holy by God, if not their children would not be holy and could never be priests of God. But that does not mean they are saved because they must also be justified by the blood of Christ.

Heb_10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

So I see that being sanctified (considered holy by God) does not mean that one is saved, and for those who are saved it does not mean that they are sinless.
Click to expand...
The next question that comes to my mind is if I am saved and am have become a new person indwelled with the Holy Spirit then how could I possibly sin? It would go against my new nature wouldn't it?
 
WIP said:
The next question that comes to my mind is if I am saved and am have become a new person indwelled with the Holy Spirit then how could I possibly sin? It would go against my new nature wouldn't it?
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Yes, it does go against the righteousness that the Holy Spirit is convincing us of by renewing our minds. He indwells us but He does not brainwash us. As we grow we find ourselves repenting (changing our mind) about what is righteous and what it not. We know that we will never be perfect (without sin) in this life.
I think we confuse holiness with being sinless and yet the scripture of the sanctified unbelieving spouse shows us that God's definition of holiness does not mean sinless. Nor does it prove that a person is justified.

I believe that the Holy Spirit indwells our spirit and we are justified and sanctified, in Christ. A new creature, in Christ. But our minds, I would say soul, thoughts, emotions, habits, responses, etc. have accumulated a lot of garbage, a lot of lies that need to be corrected to agree with the mind of Christ.

Through listening and reading testimonies of many people over the years I have come to believe that people who are raised in strong Christian homes are less likely to fall into many sins compared to those who are not. I believe that they haven't ever agreed in their own minds to many of the sins that others have.
When one of these people fall into grievous sin people are shocked because it goes against even the previous thoughts and behaviors of that person. I believe that person has been attacked by Satan and it is usually through that person's emotions. We just can't trust our emotions.
We are all plagued from birth with a desire to please ourselves but when the Holy Spirit indwells we become as Paul said, In his heart he didn't Want to do evil anymore.
 
Deborah13 said:
Yes, it does go against the righteousness that the Holy Spirit is convincing us of by renewing our minds. He indwells us but He does not brainwash us. As we grow we find ourselves repenting (changing our mind) about what is righteous and what it not. We know that we will never be perfect (without sin) in this life.
I think we confuse holiness with being sinless and yet the scripture of the sanctified unbelieving spouse shows us that God's definition of holiness does not mean sinless. Nor does it prove that a person is justified.

I believe that the Holy Spirit indwells our spirit and we are justified and sanctified, in Christ. A new creature, in Christ. But our minds, I would say soul, thoughts, emotions, habits, responses, etc. have accumulated a lot of garbage, a lot of lies that need to be corrected to agree with the mind of Christ.

Through listening and reading testimonies of many people over the years I have come to believe that people who are raised in strong Christian homes are less likely to fall into many sins compared to those who are not. I believe that they haven't ever agreed in their own minds to many of the sins that others have.
When one of these people fall into grievous sin people are shocked because it goes against even the previous thoughts and behaviors of that person. I believe that person has been attacked by Satan and it is usually through that person's emotions. We just can't trust our emotions.
We are all plagued from birth with a desire to please ourselves but when the Holy Spirit indwells we become as Paul said, In his heart he didn't Want to do evil anymore.
Click to expand...


Yes, The Spirit of God dwells within our spirit, we are a new creature.

However we still have a soul and a body.

And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

The works of the flesh -

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

JLB
 
WIP said:
The next question that comes to my mind is if I am saved and am have become a new person indwelled with the Holy Spirit then how could I possibly sin? It would go against my new nature wouldn't it?
Click to expand...

New nature or perfect nature?

Or a new nature under refinement on it's why toward perfection?

Isaiah 48:8-11 Neither have you heard, nor have you known,nor from of old has your ear been opened.For I knew you would deal treacherously, very treacherously,and you are called a rebel from the womb. For the sake of my name I refrain from my anger,and for my praise I restrain it for you so as not to cut you off. Look! I have refined you, but not like silver;I have chosen you in the furnace of misery. For my own sake, for my own sake I do it;for why should it be defiled?And I will not give my glory to another.”

Ezekiel 36:31 And you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourself over your iniquities and over your detestable things.

Ezekiel 36:33 “Thus says the Lord Yahweh: ‘On the day when I cleanse you from all of your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the ruins will be rebuilt.

Revelation 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.


​
 
WIP said:
Unbelief, rejecting Christ, ...
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Yeah I agree. Now I've lost my train of thought I had something to add about sin not being the thing that sends us to hell. It might come back to me later :D
 
Deborah and JLB. It sounds like you're saying what I have believed. That our salvation may be a process rather than a single instant event. Am I understanding correctly?
 
WIP said:
Deborah and JLB. It sounds like you're saying what I have believed. That our salvation may be a process rather than a single instant event. Am I understanding correctly?
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Yes, but I would like to clarify that a little.

I believe that we are saved by grace, through faith and that not of ourselves, it is a gift from God.

Once this occurs, I believe at that point we are given the right to become...sons of God. There is a process to becoming. A process of conforming to the image of His Son.

We must balance this with - work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Philippians 2:12

I believe God's Grace is His power to accomplish in us what we can not do ourselves, not because we deserve it but because of His love and mercy.

Based on our maturity, He carries us by His Grace as we mature and grow in the knowledge of Christ.

So we work out our own salvation by the power of His grace, knowing that God gives grace to the humble.



JLB
 
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