Speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit

[My Rock]

The Bible does not teach a separate baptism of Holy Spirit.

Very clear distinction between water baptism and spirit baptism. One from Man and the other from God. John 3:5, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Jesus' very own words.

Matthew 3:11, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire."
Mark 1:7-8, "And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."
Luke 3:16, "John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire."
John 1:33, "And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost."

 

[Rockytopva]

Very clear distinction between water baptism and spirit baptism. One from Man and the other from God. John 3:5, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Jesus' very own words.

Matthew 3:11, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire."
Mark 1:7-8, "And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."
Luke 3:16, "John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire."
John 1:33, "And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost."

I have got to supportive to these comments here as the Christian life is useless without the Holy Spirit. I have had to listen to preachers who seem to have the religion in the head only making their sermons very wearisome. Always enjoy being aware of the Holy Spirit in the experience!

 

[Hidden In Him]

This is just personal testimony, so it lacks the weight of biblical argument. But way back in '71 I was with the Jesus' People, and had already received manifestly the gift of the Holy Spirit. I had known the Lord my entire life, but never knew God "more fully," as Apollos experienced it previously.

I was rejoicing in the Lord, testifying to Jesus and enjoying the presence of God. But my compatriots prayed over me, telling me to just start forming words in another language, praying in that "language." Nothing happened supernaturally--was I just supposed to "fake this?"

I went into a back room and asked God if I was lacking this "Tongues?" As I prayed the most beautiful English language came out of my mouth--I'm not that eloquent! I felt as if God was telling me He wants me to learn to speak intelligibly to my friends and acquaintances with supernatural revelation, and not be as others were given to speak in other Tongues. This was my "Tongue" whenever He anointed me.

Well, I certainly didn't go on to always pray with such eloquence, but I did learn to listen to God when I prayed or whenver I testified. I know that anecdotal evidence isn't doctrine, but it is nevertheless what I experienced.

Since I have not really had the Gift of Tongues I began to doubt the degree to which it was authentic. One day I angrily prayed and determined to reject that gift if God did not speak to me from heaven. Ashamed that I was trying to make the "Sign" too hard so that I wouldn't have to believe in Tongues, I asked God to simply give me a sign on earth. Immediately in front of me a firework shot up into the sky and fell back down--a Sign had indeed been given.

Well, the Bible does indicate Tongues are a Gift for some. I'll let the Holy Spirit decide what gifts He wants to distribute to us as individuals. It's His world, and we are His People.

Thanks for sharing, Randy.

This would be one reason why I do not place tongues on such a high level. If you check our thread on "Why are you a Pentecostal?" I had somewhat similar things happen during my baptism until the flood gates opened. But I was every bit a born again believer before the experience as after, just as scripture suggests others were during NT times. An over-emphasis upon speaking in tongues is IMO very counter-productive and even damaging to the faith of some, and can also lead to some people faking it out of a desperate need to want to be accepted. Better to always keep things real, and accept one another for what each of us are and what each of us experience, and know that there are a many ways to experience our God supernaturally. Some may be more dramatic and powerful, but I agree with even Cessationists here who would say that the ultimate evidence of the Holy Spirit is a changed life.

Why are you Pentecostal?

I wasn't a Christian when my wife with great forethought and trepidation agreed to married me. My wife had been a Christian for a few years. When I was not on the road with a rock band I would attend church with her, and I watched the relationship she had with God and saw the fire of the Holy...

christianforums.net

 

[Hidden In Him]

Very clear distinction between water baptism and spirit baptism. One from Man and the other from God. John 3:5, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Jesus' very own words.

My Rock, let me ask you something, and this is probably the thread for it.

I'm assuming the above is the foundational passage for "There is no salvation apart from Spirit Baptism," but let me ask, Peter said that we are born of incorruptible seed through the indwelling word of God, which lives and abides forever. Now my question is this: If we are born of incorruptible seed and His words are Spirit and Life, how can one be said to NOT be truly born from above (i.e. of the Spirit) unless he has experienced the Spirit baptism?

Blessings In Christ,
Hidden In Him

Btw, I again have not been able to keep up with this entire thread from its outset, so if you have addressed this already my apologies, and maybe you can direct me to previous posts if you don't feel like repeating yourself. I see that on occasion you appear to distance yourself from that particular doctrine, which if I'm not mistaken my be official UPC doctrine though I am not sure.

 

[electedbyHim]

Very clear distinction between water baptism and spirit baptism. One from Man and the other from God. John 3:5, "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Jesus' very own words.

Matthew 3:11, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire."
Mark 1:7-8, "And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost."
Luke 3:16, "John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire."
John 1:33, "And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost."

My apologies, I read your post wrong.

However baptism is not a rquirement in regeneration.

Many teach that if one is not baptised, they are not saved.

 

[Rockytopva]

Thanks for sharing, Randy.

This would be one reason why I do not place tongues on such a high level. If you check our thread on "Why are you a Pentecostal?" I had somewhat similar things happen during my baptism until the flood gates opened. But I was every bit a born again believer before the experience as after, just as scripture suggests others were during NT times. An over-emphasis upon speaking in tongues is IMO very counter-productive and even damaging to the faith of some, and can also lead to some people faking it out of a desperate need to want to be accepted. Better to always keep things real, and accept one another for what each of us are and what each of us experience, and know that there are a many ways to experience our God supernaturally. Some may be more dramatic and powerful, but I agree with even Cessationists here who would say that the ultimate evidence of the Holy Spirit is a changed life.

Why are you Pentecostal?

I wasn't a Christian when my wife with great forethought and trepidation agreed to married me. My wife had been a Christian for a few years. When I was not on the road with a rock band I would attend church with her, and I watched the relationship she had with God and saw the fire of the Holy...

christianforums.net

And it is very annoying when someone tries to teach tongues. I do not want any gifts that are not of God... But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. - 2 Corinthians 4:7

 

[My Rock]

"There is no salvation apart from Spirit Baptism,"

Peter said that we are born of incorruptible seed through the indwelling word of God,

1 Peter 1:23 emphasizes the importance of the Word of God in the process of being born again, it is important to understand this verse in the broader context of the New Testament teachings on salvation. Being born again involves a spiritual transformation that goes beyond merely reading or hearing the Word. (I have been quoting lot of passages and people keep saying its my opinion) Jesus said Himself in John 3:5 that one must be "born of water and of the Spirit" to enter the kingdom of God, indicating the necessity of both baptism and the infilling of the Holy Spirit. The Word of God plays a vital role in revealing the truth and guiding a person to faith, but the new birth also involves repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and receiving the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38). Thus, while the incorruptible seed of God's Word is essential in the rebirth process, it works in conjunction with the believer's response to the Gospel through obedience and the work of the Holy Spirit, leading to a fully transformed life in Christ.

 

[My Rock]

However baptism is not a requirement in regeneration.

In the New Testament, baptism is consistently portrayed as an integral part of the salvation experience. Jesus Himself emphasized the necessity of being "born of water and of the Spirit" in John 3:5, which is referring to water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Additionally, in Acts 2:38, Peter instructs those who were convicted by the message of the Gospel to "repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." This indicates that baptism is a vital step in the process of salvation and spiritual regeneration.

Romans 6:3-4 explains that through baptism, believers are buried with Christ into His death and raised to walk in newness of life, symbolizing the believer's union with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. This union is a key aspect of regeneration, as it marks the transition from the old life of sin to the new life in Christ.

While the Word of God is indeed powerful and essential in bringing about faith (Romans 10:17), baptism is portrayed in Scripture as an outward expression of an inward transformation and a necessary step in the process of being born again. It is through baptism that believers publicly identify with Christ, receive the remission of sins, and enter into the new covenant relationship with God. Therefore, in a biblical understanding, baptism is not an optional or separate act from regeneration but is deeply connected to the entire experience of being born again.

 

[RandyK]

(Deep “Well)

12 ? Oh well

I thought Joel said Sons and Daughters

How many disciples of the 12 were female?

I think there were 120? disciples in the upper room at Pentecost .

To have Sons and Daughters you need beyond 12.

I was not there

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Hey, I was just down in Mississippi a year back. Nice folks there! I think God sent the Holy Spirit to a diverse group dominated by the presence of the apostles in order to confirm what Jesus had said. He told them to wait in Jerusalem for the Comforter, to receive the Gift promised by John the Baptist. So the apostles had to be there. But the Gift is for all. The presence of the apostles confirmed that it had happened. They were never to be exclusive recipients of the Gift.

 

[RandyK]

Acts 2:1-4
1. They ALL spoke in Tongues
2. If it's not an experience for ALL believers than why did ALL receive?

The experience of the Holy Spirit is for all. Tongues certainly showed that--not that Tongues had to accompany the receipt of the Holy Spirit.

Tongues were used at that point only as a confirming supernatural confirmation. It did not have that purpose later.

3. If your statement is to be true, since there were only 15 different languages or dialects at Pentecost, ALL wouldn't have needed to be speaking in Tongues.

If you'll notice, this Gift is used to confirm to a diversity of people that the Spirit had come for all believers--not that all believers must speak in Tongues! The message is that they are to receive the Holy Spirit--not that they had to speak in Tongues to confirm they had received it.

Tongues was not the only evidence they had received the Spirit. There was a rushing mighty wind too. They all experienced it--should all Christians who claim to receive the Holy Spirit experience the rushing mighty wind too?

4. Speaking in tongues was not limited to just a few but was an experience for all those who were filled with the Holy Spirit in the Upper room.

Yes, but the manifestation of Tongues at that point was not to actually experience the coming of the Holy Spirit, but only to see an outward manifestation of supernatural confirmation. The initial coming of the Spirit was something all had to experience both inwardly and outwardly. Once He had come, and it was confirmed, then there was no longer a need for another "Day of Pentecost."

It was initially a major signpost of change in the Church, more or less a one-time event. Receiving the Holy Spirit is not a one-time event. But a collective experience of the Spirit coming to the Church for the 1st time was a "one off."

5. Speaking in Tongues is a Gift of the Spirit, now why wouldn't ALL True Christians want this?

Paul said we should receive whatever the Spirit wants us to have. Paul said we should only seek the better gift in terms of what benefits others, as opposed to strictly selfish enjoyments.

 

[electedbyHim]

In the New Testament, baptism is consistently portrayed as an integral part of the salvation experience. Jesus Himself emphasized the necessity of being "born of water and of the Spirit" in John 3:5, which is referring to water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Additionally, in Acts 2:38, Peter instructs those who were convicted by the message of the Gospel to "repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." This indicates that baptism is a vital step in the process of salvation and spiritual regeneration.

Romans 6:3-4 explains that through baptism, believers are buried with Christ into His death and raised to walk in newness of life, symbolizing the believer's union with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. This union is a key aspect of regeneration, as it marks the transition from the old life of sin to the new life in Christ.

While the Word of God is indeed powerful and essential in bringing about faith (Romans 10:17), baptism is portrayed in Scripture as an outward expression of an inward transformation and a necessary step in the process of being born again. It is through baptism that believers publicly identify with Christ, receive the remission of sins, and enter into the new covenant relationship with God. Therefore, in a biblical understanding, baptism is not an optional or separate act from regeneration but is deeply connected to the entire experience of being born again.

Regeneration is the work of God unto His elect.

Baptism is something the Christian does after salvation as an outward expression of professing Christ.

If you add baptism to salvation, it now becomes a work.

 

[electedbyHim]

In the New Testament, baptism is consistently portrayed as an integral part of the salvation experience. Jesus Himself emphasized the necessity of being "born of water and of the Spirit" in John 3:5, which is referring to water baptism and the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Additionally, in Acts 2:38, Peter instructs those who were convicted by the message of the Gospel to "repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." This indicates that baptism is a vital step in the process of salvation and spiritual regeneration.

Romans 6:3-4 explains that through baptism, believers are buried with Christ into His death and raised to walk in newness of life, symbolizing the believer's union with Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. This union is a key aspect of regeneration, as it marks the transition from the old life of sin to the new life in Christ.

While the Word of God is indeed powerful and essential in bringing about faith (Romans 10:17), baptism is portrayed in Scripture as an outward expression of an inward transformation and a necessary step in the process of being born again. It is through baptism that believers publicly identify with Christ, receive the remission of sins, and enter into the new covenant relationship with God. Therefore, in a biblical understanding, baptism is not an optional or separate act from regeneration but is deeply connected to the entire experience of being born again.

Acts 2:38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.





William MacDonald on meaning of be baptized - At first glance, this verse seems to teach salvation by baptism, and many people insist that this is precisely what it does mean. Such an interpretation is impossible for the following reasons:

1. In dozens of NT passages, salvation is said to be by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (John 1:12; 3:16, 36; 6:47; Acts 16:31; Ro 10:9). No verse or two could conceivably contradict such overwhelming testimony.
2. The thief on the cross had the assurance of salvation apart from baptism (Lk 23:43).
3. The Savior is not stated to have baptized anyone, a strange omission if baptism is essential to salvation.
4. The Apostle Paul was thankful that he baptized only a few of the Corinthians—a strange cause for thankfulness if baptism has saving merit (1 Cor. 1:14–16).(Borrow Believer's Bible Commentary)

Warren Wiersbe points out that "the people in the home of Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized (Acts 10:44-48)." (Bible Exposition Commentary)

Paul Apple - Account of Philip preaching Christ (His crucifixion and resurrection) to the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8:26-40; Response -- “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God” – let’s move on to take the next step of water baptism. Paul evangelizing the Philippian jailer – Acts 16:30-31 “What must I do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household” – baptism immediately follows. (The Spread of the Gospel)

Stott: What the gospel demands is a radical turn from sin to Christ, which takes the form inwardly of repentance and faith, and outwardly of baptism. For submission to baptism in the name of the Christ we have formerly repudiated gives public evidence of penitent faith in him. (The Message of Acts)

Ryrie has an interesting note on baptism in the name of Jesus Christ - Since baptism signifies association (ED: BAPTISM = IDENTIFICATION WITH) with the message, group, or person involved in authorizing it, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ meant for these people a severing of their ties with Judaism and an association with the messages of Jesus and His people. Baptism was the line of demarcation. Even today for a Jew it is not his profession of Christianity nor his attendance at Christian services nor his acceptance of the New Testament, but his submission to water baptism that definitely and finally excludes him from the Jewish community and marks him off as a Christian. This explains the insistence on the ordinance. (Acts of the Apostles)

Be baptized for...the forgiveness of your sins - I am fully aware that some use Peter's words to justify their belief that baptism is necessary for salvation. Obviously this is a huge topic and this commentary will avoid going into detail except for a few comments. The related resources below go into more detail. Suffice it to say I strongly refute the teaching that unless one is baptized in water they will not be saved. Such a baptism is clearly a work and Paul is crystal clear in Ephesians 2 writing For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works (INCLUDING BAPTISM), so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works (WORKS ARE THE EXPECTED FRUIT OF GENUINE SALVATION, BUT NOT THE ROOT OF THAT SALVATION!), which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

As alluded to in these notes, the teaching that one must be baptized to be saved counters multiple other NT passages that clearly teach salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Anything added to this is damnable heresy (IMO)! In support of this basic refutation John MacArthur writes "such teaching (THAT BAPTISM IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION) violates the important hermeneutical principle known as analogia Scriptura (the analogy of Scripture). That principle states that no passage, when correctly interpreted, will teach something contradictory to the rest of Scripture. And the rest of Scripture unmistakably teaches that salvation is solely by faith (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; Acts 16:31; Rom. 3:21-30; 4:5; 10:9-10; Phil. 3:9; Gal. 2:16)."

To quote from Gotquestions.org - Baptism is not necessary for salvation. Baptism does not save from sin but from a bad conscience. In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter clearly taught that baptism was not a ceremonial act of physical purification, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is the symbol of what has already occurred in the heart and life of one who has trusted Christ as Savior (Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12). Baptism is an important step of obedience that every Christian should take. Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation. To make it such is an attack on the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (Is Baptism Necessary for Salvation?)

 

[My Rock]

The message is that they are to receive the Holy Spirit--not that they had to speak in Tongues to confirm they had received it.

1 Corinthians 14:22, “Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.”​

Tongues serve as a visible sign for unbelievers, indicating that someone has been baptized in the Holy Ghost. In a church setting where unbelievers are present, if someone approaches the altar seeking the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, the manifestation of speaking in tongues provides clear evidence of having received it. Without this outward sign, it would be challenging for unbelievers to discern whether the person has truly experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit. It is an initial evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4), and its public manifestation can convict and convince those who do not yet believe, showing them the reality of God's work. This aligns with the events at Pentecost, where the disciples spoke in tongues, astonishing and drawing the attention of the multitude, leading to Peter's powerful sermon and the conversion of about three thousand souls (Acts 2:6-41).

 

[My Rock]

Regeneration is the work of God unto His elect.
Baptism is something the Christian does after salvation as an outward expression of professing Christ.
If you add baptism to salvation, it now becomes a work.

In Acts 2:38, Peter instructs, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." This passage highlights the commands of God regarding repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit. While these actions are indeed commands given by God, they are not considered "works" in the sense of earning salvation. Instead, they are responses of faith and obedience to God's provision of salvation.

In biblical theology, the term "works" often refers to human efforts aimed at earning favor or righteousness through deeds, independent of divine grace. Acts 2:38 outlines the necessary steps for receiving the promise of salvation, which are acts of obedience rather than meritorious works. Repentance and baptism are acts of faith and submission to God's will, reflecting a response to His grace rather than a means of achieving it. Therefore, following God's commands as described in Acts 2:38 should be understood as an obedient response to His grace, rather than a form of work that can be performed to earn salvation.

 

[electedbyHim]

1 Corinthians 14:22, “Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.”​

Tongues serve as a visible sign for unbelievers, indicating that someone has been baptized in the Holy Ghost. In a church setting where unbelievers are present, if someone approaches the altar seeking the Baptism of the Holy Ghost, the manifestation of speaking in tongues provides clear evidence of having received it. Without this outward sign, it would be challenging for unbelievers to discern whether the person has truly experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit. It is an initial evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4), and its public manifestation can convict and convince those who do not yet believe, showing them the reality of God's work. This aligns with the events at Pentecost, where the disciples spoke in tongues, astonishing and drawing the attention of the multitude, leading to Peter's powerful sermon and the conversion of about three thousand souls (Acts 2:6-41).

it would be challenging for unbelievers to discern whether the person has truly experienced the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

This is interesting since the Bible teaches that the unregenerate are dead in their sin, they have no ability or want to seek God.

The fact is, unbelievers are at enmity with God.

An unbeliever in no way can discern anything of God, especially His spirit.

Romans 8:6-7 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Look at the unbelievers when they heard the tongues, some thought they were drunk.

Acts 2:12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"
Acts 2:13 But others were mocking and saying, "They are full of sweet wine."

Also, why do unbelievers need to hear tongues, is not the written word of God and His gospel enough?

 

[electedbyHim]

In Acts 2:38, Peter instructs, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." This passage highlights the commands of God regarding repentance, baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit. While these actions are indeed commands given by God, they are not considered "works" in the sense of earning salvation. Instead, they are responses of faith and obedience to God's provision of salvation.

In biblical theology, the term "works" often refers to human efforts aimed at earning favor or righteousness through deeds, independent of divine grace. Acts 2:38 outlines the necessary steps for receiving the promise of salvation, which are acts of obedience rather than meritorious works. Repentance and baptism are acts of faith and submission to God's will, reflecting a response to His grace rather than a means of achieving it. Therefore, following God's commands as described in Acts 2:38 should be understood as an obedient response to His grace, rather than a form of work that can be performed to earn salvation.

But you are saying baptism is needed for salvation and that is not Biblical.

Baptism is not part of Biblical Soteriology.

 

[My Rock]

1. The thief on the cross had the assurance of salvation apart from baptism (Lk 23:43).
2. The Savior is not stated to have baptized anyone, a strange omission if baptism is essential to salvation.

It’s crucial to understand this case within its historical and theological context. The thief's salvation occurred before the new covenant was fully established. Jesus had not yet died, resurrected, or instituted the Great Commission, which includes the command to baptize new believers (Matthew 28:19). The thief's assurance of salvation reflects Jesus' authority to grant forgiveness and salvation directly, even under the old covenant conditions.

On statement #2 read above, plus, If Christ baptized He would be baptising in His own name?!?

 

[My Rock]

This is interesting since the Bible teaches that the unregenerate are dead in their sin, they have no ability or want to seek God.

The fact is, unbelievers are at enmity with God.

An unbeliever in no way can discern anything of God, especially His spirit.

Romans 8:6-7 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

Look at the unbelievers when they heard the tongues, some thought they were drunk.

Acts 2:12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, "What does this mean?"
Acts 2:13 But others were mocking and saying, "They are full of sweet wine."

Also, why do unbelievers need to hear tongues, is not the written word of God and His gospel enough?

It is acknowledged that the unregenerate are indeed spiritually dead and at enmity with God, as described in passages like Ephesians 2:1. However, the manifestation of tongues serves a distinct purpose beyond immediate understanding. In Acts 2, while some onlookers did misinterpret the tongues as drunkenness, the phenomenon still drew their attention and provided an opportunity for the gospel to be preached. The event demonstrated a profound, divine intervention that piqued curiosity and prompted Peter’s subsequent sermon. This manifestation acted as a catalyst for engaging those who were spiritually dead, leading to their eventual awakening and conversion. While unbelievers may not immediately understand or appreciate the significance of tongues, the act itself serves as a powerful sign that can provoke inquiry, challenge preconceptions, and ultimately contribute to their exposure to the gospel message.

 

[My Rock]

But you are saying baptism is needed for salvation and that is not Biblical.

Baptism is not part of Biblical Soteriology.

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." Scripture with no commentary, speaks for itself.

 

[electedbyHim]

It’s crucial to understand this case within its historical and theological context. The thief's salvation occurred before the new covenant was fully established. Jesus had not yet died, resurrected, or instituted the Great Commission, which includes the command to baptize new believers (Matthew 28:19). The thief's assurance of salvation reflects Jesus' authority to grant forgiveness and salvation directly, even under the old covenant conditions.

On statement #2 read above, plus, If Christ baptized He would be baptising in His own name?!?

Your teaching baptismal regeneration, this is not found in salvation.

Baptism is not part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In 1 Corinthians Paul said, ‘for Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel” (1 Corinthians 1:17). Clearly, if Paul was sent to preach the gospel and was not sent to baptize, then the gospel and baptism are two different things. 1 Corinthians 15, the only passage in the New Testament to give a formal definition of the gospel, confirms that baptism is not part of the gospel. According to Paul’s definition in 1 Corinthians 15:3–4 the gospel is the good news of the death and resurrection of Christ. Baptism is never mentioned! It is the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16). Since a person is saved by the gospel (Romans 1:16), which does not include baptism (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:3–4), then a person can be saved without being baptized. All that is necessary is for a person to hear the gospel and trust Jesus Christ for eternal life.