Speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit

[Hopeful 2]

The idea that those who heard the disciples speaking in their own languages acted as interpreters and then relayed the message back to the disciples in Hebrew doesn't align with the account in Acts 2. The event described was not a one-on-one communication where interpretation was needed.

I think "it" does align with Acts 2.
Acts 2:6-8..."Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"
Their conversation wasn't hidden from Peter, who responded immediately.

 

[My Rock]

I was thinking of the next verse..."23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"
That warning, that I figured precluded speaking in tongues in front of unbelievers, may have actually been an exhortation not to all speak in tongues at the same time in front of unbelievers.
That happened to me once when I visited a church here in Phoenix.
Even being a believer, I was freaked out by all the yelling and screaming.
I wanted to run !
There were no interpreters there.

1 Corinthians 14:23, "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"

This verse highlights the importance of order and edification in the use of spiritual gifts, particularly the gift of tongues. Speaking in tongues is a significant aspect of Pentecostal worship and is seen as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. However, Paul emphasizes that the primary purpose of spiritual gifts, including tongues, is to build up the church and to be a witness to unbelievers.

In this passage, Paul is not discouraging the practice of speaking in tongues but is advocating for its proper use in public worship. This aligns with the teaching to encouraging believers to exercise spiritual gifts in a way that promotes understanding and edification. When everyone in the congregation speaks in tongues simultaneously without interpretation, it can lead to confusion, particularly for those who are new to the faith or are visiting unbelievers. This confusion can result in the misperception that the congregation is acting irrationally ("mad"), thus hindering the church’s witness.

Paul's instruction underscores the need for balance between spiritual expression and clarity of communication. The gift of tongues is a powerful and necessary experience but also recognize the importance of interpretation (1 Corinthians 14:27-28) so that the church may be edified. The presence of interpretation transforms the tongues into a prophetic message that can instruct and encourage all present, including unbelievers who might otherwise misunderstand the purpose of the gift. This approach ensures that the use of tongues serves its intended purpose: to glorify God, edify the church, and serve as a sign to unbelievers of the active presence of the Holy Spirit.

We don't speak in tongues in front of visitors.

Why is that?
1 Corinthians 14:22, "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."

This verse highlights the distinct roles of speaking in tongues and prophesying within the church. Speaking in tongues serves as a sign to unbelievers, demonstrating the supernatural power and presence of God. It is an initial evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4), and its public manifestation can convict and convince those who do not yet believe, showing them the reality of God's work. This aligns with the events at Pentecost, where the disciples spoke in tongues, astonishing and drawing the attention of the multitude, leading to Peter's powerful sermon and the conversion of about three thousand souls (Acts 2:6-41).

Prophesying serves to edify, exhort, and comfort the believers (1 Corinthians 14:3). It provides guidance, encouragement, and instruction within the church, building up the faith of those who already believe. Prophecy operates as a means of direct communication from God, bringing clarity and revelation to the congregation. While tongues serve as a sign to outsiders, prophecy is a gift meant to strengthen and mature the body of Christ. This dual function underscores the comprehensive nature of God's gifts to the church: tongues as a means of drawing unbelievers and prophecy as a tool for nurturing believers.

Both gifts work together to fulfill God's purpose in the church, ensuring that both unbelievers are reached and believers are built up in their faith. Emphasizing the importance of being open to the movement of the Holy Spirit and the operation of all spiritual gifts, recognizing that they each have a unique and vital role in the life of the church. By embracing and properly exercising these gifts, the church can effectively minister to both the lost and the saved, fulfilling its mission to make disciples and glorify God.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Why is that?
1 Corinthians 14:22, "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."

I gave my reasons.
I don't believe a man is a Christian, if he doesn't speak in tongues.
I don't want to expose something that can be copied by a poser.

 

[hawkman]

That warning, that I figured precluded speaking in tongues in front of unbelievers, may have actually been an exhortation not to all speak in tongues at the same time in front of unbelievers.

Yes , not all at the same time .

We don't speak in tongues in front of visitors.
(It might be different if we had someone with the gift of interpretation.)

I understand . I would like to understand more about the gift of interpretation , which I would have that understanding if I had the Gift of Tongues interpretation . I believe the Gift of Speaking in Tongues is more in prevalence than the Gift of Interpretation of Tongues is . I will pray for your congregation to have someone with the Gift of Interpretation of tongues .

 

[Runningman]

The promise of the Father, which is the baptism with the Holy Spirit with the evidence that is seen and heard, speaking in tongues is for all people.

For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call. Acts 2:39

Did God call you out of darkness into His marvelous light?

Yes! Amen.


Then the promise is for you, and all that He called.




JLB

There isn't enough information in Acts 2 to say the promise is tongues. Yes it can be said the promise is the gift of the Holy Spirit, but Scripture already confirms that not everyone gets the gifts of tongues and Paul said it wasn't the most desirable gift or the greatest gift. The gift of the Holy Spirit should be understood to be whatever the gift is that God wants to give. Maybe it's going to be the gift of the tongues, maybe it's not, but prophecy is greater than tongues and more deisrable.

1 Corinthians 14
5I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

 

[Runningman]

I gave my reasons.
I don't believe a man is a Christian, if he doesn't speak in tongues.
I don't want to expose something that can be copied by a poser.

This is one of the characteristic beliefs in Oneness Pentecostalism and the vast majority of Christians say it's rank heresy.

A Christian is someone who is a follower of the Christ who believes in and practices his teachings. Jesus never taught anything about those who are true Christians will speak in tongues.

I believe what you have said, is to place the horse before the carriage. True Christians do the will of the Father and the will of the Father is to listen to His Son and practice righteousness. After that it's possible to receive gifts of the Holy Spirit. A true Christian does the will of God and true Christians can receive the gift of tongues.

Practicing spiritual gifts will by no means help anyone on their judgement day, but rather those trees who produce good fruits will have mercy and favor.

Matthew 7
15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[RandyK]

The term "all" in Acts 2:1-4 indeed refers to those present in the Upper Room during the Day of Pentecost. This gathering represents the unity and readiness of the early Church to receive the promised Holy Spirit (Luke 24:49). The experience of "all" speaking in tongues emphasizes that the gift of the Holy Spirit was not reserved for a select few but was available to every believer present. This event set a precedent for the outpouring of the Spirit, illustrating that when believers come together earnestly asking God for the Baptism of The Holy Ghost, they can expect to receive the same infilling and empowerment, with tongues as the initial evidence.

You see, this last part *you added*--not the Scriptures. I do *not* see in the Scriptures the doctrine that all those who pursue Salvation and the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues. On the contrary Paul asked the rhetorical question: "do all speak in tongues.?" The answer to that obviously was intended to be "No!"

1 Cor 12.30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

We are, however, exhorted to pursue the higher gifts, which in some cases would be teaching instead of serving. For others it may be prophesying instead of speaking in tongues. Still others, it may be preaching instead of giving testimony. We are to pursue the gift that is in us, individually, to reach the most, or to do the most good.

What we are told is that all those in the Upper Room, who were told to be there for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, received the gift of Tongues, or at least displayed that gift. And we know that it happened for other groups later. So it seemed to be a regular occurence indicating that the gift of the Holy Spirit had come.

But Paul, in dealing with this gift after the initial outpourings, did not speak of it as universal, but only as an individually-styled gift from the Holy Spirit. This is how I read the Bible, apart from Pentecostal doctrine (from the denominations).

While it’s true that the specific event of Pentecost involved a particular group of believers in a specific place and time, the biblical pattern extend beyond that moment. Acts 2:39 declares that "the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (This means exactly that as many as God will call can have this Gift) This suggests that the experience of receiving the Holy Spirit, evidenced by speaking in tongues, is not limited to the early Church but is intended for all believers across all times and places. This demonstrates the continuity of God’s promise through generations, affirming that what happened at Pentecost is a model for all believers who seek the fullness of the Spirit.

Receiving the Holy Spirit is not explicitly being equated with the Gift of Tongues. Regardless of the fact Tongues regularly seemed to occasion the initial coming of the Holy Spirit, we are not told it would be an ongoing gift (as an initial sign), nor that everybody was going to receive that gift upon receiving the Holy Spirit. I can understand where you get this, but again, Paul said otherwise in 1 Cor 12.

I do believe that the Gift of Tongues is still operational today. But turning it into a "Prayer Language" that anybody can manage is not, I think, what the Gift of Tongues was ever meant to be. It was meant to be to praise God prophetically, and to sometimes precede an intelligible utterance. And only some would be given this Gift.

 

[Hidden In Him]

If anyone here challenges the Scriptural truth I present, let me ask: When you sought God for the baptism of His Spirit, how did you know you had received it? In over a decade of witnessing God's work, I've consistently observed that when individuals receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, they speak in tongues—this is the unmistakable evidence I have seen time and again.

I haven't kept up with this entire thread, but agree with some previous posts that tongues is not the only sign of receiving. Two verses in Acts place tongues and prophecy together, so there were at least two visible signs in evidence at the time of Spirit baptism. But I do consider your statement above to be a valid argument. I don't believe the Lord ever intended everyone to just take our word for it that we've been baptized in the Holy Spirit. There were clear evidences for it in the NT, and the same should be true today.

In short, I think He did fully intend for there be visible supernatural evidences both then and now, but to say tongues is the only evidence IMO is in error.

Blessings,
- H

 

[eddif]

Exactly. More than that, the wording is pretty clear: receiving the Holy Spirit was based on repentance. (It is debatable as to the necessity of baptism for this particular aspect and in this context as it isn't necessary for salvation, but is a public profession of faith in Christ.) There is no mention of additional prayer or seeking the Holy Spirit and no mention of anyone else speaking in tongues.

How did my comment apply to this response?
This response of yours.
Repentance leads to accepting the work of Jesus. Jesus accomplished salvation (IMHO).

John came to prepare the way of the Lord. The narrow way, but believe in the one who came after John the Baptist.

There is one name under heaven to be saved by: Jesus.
Repentance
is the first step. Repentance leaves us in a state of shock. We discover we sinned and cry out (what must I do to be saved). The answer is the Gospel. Repentance is not the Gospel. Repentance precedes the Gospel (IMHO).

What Baptism are you Baptized into? The first answer was John’s Baptism.

The next Baptism is into Jesus Christ for eternal life.

There is one overall Baptism. It just comes in stages. I may get in triuble here, but maybe we can work through it. The Godhead has Father, Son. Holy Spirit.
Baptism was historically:
John’s Baptism
Jesus’s Baptism
Holy Spirit’s Baptism by Jesus

Over time we have made it a single ceremony, but we can look at the three parts.
Repentance (water)
Jesus
Holy Spirit (by Jesus)

One Baptism, but three parts?

So. I thought I was addressing what you said. Could I at any time miss what anyone says? Sure I can miss what someone is saying.

My eyes are tired. I see some errors but can not see cursor placement.

Mississippi redneck
eddif


‘D






The solution we receive is the Gispel.

 

[My Rock]

Paul asked the rhetorical question: "do all speak in tongues.?" The answer to that obviously was intended to be "No!"

1 Cor 12.30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

1 Corinthians 12:29-30, "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"

Addresses the diversity of spiritual gifts within the body of Christ, emphasizing that not every believer will have the same role or gift. The church is likened to a body, with each member having a distinct function, and all are necessary for the health and growth of the church. This diversity ensures that the church operates effectively, with apostles, prophets, teachers, miracle workers, those with gifts of healing, and others each contributing uniquely to the mission of the church.

It is important to distinguish between the different types of speaking in tongues mentioned in the New Testament. The Bible teaches that speaking in tongues serves different purposes and contexts. First, there is speaking in tongues as the initial evidence of receiving the Baptism of The Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:1-4, which is a private and personal experience for every believer baptized in the Holy Ghost. This experience is a sign of the New Birth and is distinct from the spiritual gifts described in 1 Corinthians 12.

Second, the passage in 1 Corinthians 12 refers to the specific gift of tongues used in a public worship setting. This gift, meant for the edification of the church, occurs during quiet spiritual moments and requires interpretation. Not all believers will possess this particular gift, just as not all are apostles, prophets, or teachers. This public exercise of the gift of tongues, accompanied by interpretation, is different from the personal prayer language experienced by individuals when they receive the Holy Spirit.

While every believer is encouraged to seek and receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as a personal experience, the specific gift of tongues used in church settings for communal edification and requiring interpretation is given according to God’s sovereign will and purpose. This distinction clarifies the different roles of speaking in tongues within the body of Christ, both for individual spiritual growth and for the edification of the church.

But turning it into a "Prayer Language" that anybody can manage is not, I think, what the Gift of Tongues was ever meant to be.

it's important to consider what Scripture says about the purpose and use of tongues. In 1 Corinthians 14:2, Paul writes, "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." This suggests that there is a personal, devotional aspect to speaking in tongues, where the individual is communicating directly with God in a way that transcends human language.

The gift of tongues serves multiple purposes. It is a sign of the infilling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4), a means of edifying the believer (1 Corinthians 14:4), and a sign for unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22). The idea of a "prayer language" aligns with Paul's teaching that speaking in tongues can be part of personal prayer and worship, where the believer's spirit communicates with God beyond the limitations of their understanding.

Paul also emphasizes that this gift should be used appropriately within the congregation. He advises that in a public setting (Times of quiet Spiritual reflection), if tongues are spoken, there should be interpretation so that the church may be edified (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). This maintains the balance between personal edification and corporate order.

 

[My Rock]

but to say tongues is the only evidence IMO is in error.

Blessings,
- H

I do not believe its the only evidence "just the initial evidence"

 

[eddif]

Daniel 5:25 kjv
25. And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.

This is mentioned just to show that the Old Testament is not exempt from Tongues.
Also, since that kingdom had many
scholars, so there is a chance this is a tongue of angels. Daniel had to pray to get the meaning / interpretation.

We see through a glass darkly. So much is dim to us. We are not blind, but there are some shadows.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Runningman]

1 Corinthians 12:29-30, "Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"

Addresses the diversity of spiritual gifts within the body of Christ, emphasizing that not every believer will have the same role or gift. The church is likened to a body, with each member having a distinct function, and all are necessary for the health and growth of the church. This diversity ensures that the church operates effectively, with apostles, prophets, teachers, miracle workers, those with gifts of healing, and others each contributing uniquely to the mission of the church.

It is important to distinguish between the different types of speaking in tongues mentioned in the New Testament. The Bible teaches that speaking in tongues serves different purposes and contexts. First, there is speaking in tongues as the initial evidence of receiving the Baptism of The Holy Spirit according to Acts 2:1-4, which is a private and personal experience for every believer baptized in the Holy Ghost. This experience is a sign of the New Birth and is distinct from the spiritual gifts described in 1 Corinthians 12.

Second, the passage in 1 Corinthians 12 refers to the specific gift of tongues used in a public worship setting. This gift, meant for the edification of the church, occurs during quiet spiritual moments and requires interpretation. Not all believers will possess this particular gift, just as not all are apostles, prophets, or teachers. This public exercise of the gift of tongues, accompanied by interpretation, is different from the personal prayer language experienced by individuals when they receive the Holy Spirit.

While every believer is encouraged to seek and receive the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues as a personal experience, the specific gift of tongues used in church settings for communal edification and requiring interpretation is given according to God’s sovereign will and purpose. This distinction clarifies the different roles of speaking in tongues within the body of Christ, both for individual spiritual growth and for the edification of the church.

it's important to consider what Scripture says about the purpose and use of tongues. In 1 Corinthians 14:2, Paul writes, "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." This suggests that there is a personal, devotional aspect to speaking in tongues, where the individual is communicating directly with God in a way that transcends human language.

The gift of tongues serves multiple purposes. It is a sign of the infilling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4), a means of edifying the believer (1 Corinthians 14:4), and a sign for unbelievers (1 Corinthians 14:22). The idea of a "prayer language" aligns with Paul's teaching that speaking in tongues can be part of personal prayer and worship, where the believer's spirit communicates with God beyond the limitations of their understanding.

Paul also emphasizes that this gift should be used appropriately within the congregation. He advises that in a public setting (Times of quiet Spiritual reflection), if tongues are spoken, there should be interpretation so that the church may be edified (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). This maintains the balance between personal edification and corporate order.

There isn't anything about speaking in tongues as a condition or evidence of the Holy Spirit, salvation, etc., found in Matthew 19:16-18, John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Ephesians 2:8-9, 1 Corinthians 12:7-11, 1 Corinthians 14:15, or Romans 10:9, where salvation is spoken of directly.

While I understand how you came to your conclusions, I believe what you have presented is ultimately what is known as a false dichotomy because you are limiting the gift of the Holy Spirit to tongues when there is a wider range of gifts of the Holy Spirit than just tongues. I believe this misunderstanding is rooted in confirmation bias. For example, if you want to believe tongues is the only gift of the Holy Spirit, it's possible to find examples in Acts where this seems to be the case, but upon further inspection of broader Scriptural context, the doctrine is not tenable. I provided some verses above that should help.

While I am a Unitarian Christian myself, there are a lot of early Church Fathers I don’t agree with, but none of them appear to agree with the following ideas: “speaking in tongues as the initial evidence of receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit” and “a private and personal experience for every believer baptized in the Holy Ghost.” So this doesn't seem to be a commonly held belief until relatively recently in church history.

The niche belief that “speaking in tongues is evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit and true saving faith” is only held by Oneness Pentecostalism, as far as I know.

I want to nod to the fact that tongues is significant today as it was in the early church, but the New Testament doesn't suggest it's a universal sign of Holy Spirit or salvation for believers in general. I hope we can at least agree about that.

 

[WIP]

If anyone here challenges the Scriptural truth I present, let me ask: When you sought God for the baptism of His Spirit, how did you know you had received it? In over a decade of witnessing God's work, I've consistently observed that when individuals receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost, they speak in tongues—this is the unmistakable evidence I have seen time and again.

Repentance. Having become a changed person is one way.

 

[eddif]

Basic Anatomy and Physiology

Anatomy and physiology is the study of the body's systems and structures and how they interact. This section will review the body's major systems.

medictests.com

Anatomy and the life processes that are manifested.

Wheels within wheels. The metabolic system and the processes of our body. The ATP energy diagram is an example .

Just seeing or hearing is not the results that occur from the structure. The ministry gifts are for the life of the the body.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

There isn't enough information in Acts 2 to say the promise is tongues.

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:-5


It doesn’t get any more clear and plain than these words from Jesus which plainly teach us that the Promise of the Father is the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

 

[electedbyHim]

A solid yes or no would would be appreciated.

Sorry I got carried away.

So your theology teaches that a Christian that does not speak in tongues is really not saved.

Or can a Christian be saved and not have the Holy Spirit?

I am confused of what you believe.

 

[Runningman]

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:-5


It doesn’t get any more clear and plain than these words from Jesus which plainly teach us that the Promise of the Father is the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Very clearly spoken to the disciples who would later gather in the upper room. It doesn't suggest it necessarily applies to anyone else and it isn't a command for you to make a pilgrimage to Israel and go to an upper room and wait for the gift of tongues.

 

[eddif]

And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” Acts 1:-5


It doesn’t get any more clear and plain than these words from Jesus which plainly teach us that the Promise of the Father is the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

The Father promised:
John the Baptist (prepare the way)
Jesus the Son (to be believed in)
Foretold of law in new heart and mind

John the Baptist said Jesus would baptise in the Holy Spirit and fire.

The Father provided the diversity
Jesus is the administrator?
The Holy Spirit distributes the spiritual gifts.

That fit?

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[LeviR]

Very clearly spoken to the disciples who would later gather in the upper room. It doesn't suggest it necessarily applies to anyone else and it isn't a command for you to make a pilgrimage to Israel and go to an upper room and wait for the gift of tongues.

The twelve were baptized by the Holy Spirit when the Spirit entered the room, and a sound was heard from heaven, and by a rushing mighty wind that filled the entire house. They were completely immersed by the Spirit.
As the result, they were able to speak the languages of all those who had come to Jerusalem to worship. In addition, they prophesied of Jesus and the coming of the kingdom of God in truth, not lies.

The problem today, as I see it, is that people claim to have the Holy Spirit teaching and leading them into all truth. Even the same ones who disagree with each other make the same claim. It’s hysterical.