Speaking in tongues and the Holy Spirit

[Consecrated Life]

Gal 5:26
Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

I do not have a college education , please if you can tell this to me in another fashion that maybe a hick from the sticks can understand .

The replete theme running through this thread that a believer who does not speaking in tongues is spiritually lacking ,substandard, inadequate to a believer who does.

Not a spiritual concept formed from scripture but an idea formed from little earthly mediocrities of the flesh.

 

[My Rock]

I see you capitalize the H in his.

One can google his name and see websites about all the contradictions in his supposed resurrection.

I see that not supposed to be. Please provide me a few links to these supposed contradictions.

 

[RandyK]

If Jesus was walking on the water and called you to Him I am thinking you would try , I sure would .

You have me there, Hawkman! ;) And unlike Peter, I would try to not look down at the waves!

If God anointed us in the fashion of Samson and sent us into battle we would go .

Ok yes--we don't do things for the Lord only in our own strength.

Thanks for saying this ! So , the early circuit riders on horse back riding from church to church to minister to the people much like the apostles did through all kinds of bad conditions . I have heard of their experiences , God supplies the power where the need is for his faithful .

Yea, believe it or not, I ran around on empty real late at night, and found no gas station open. I had about a half hour more to go to get home. Somehow I got home. ;) Had enough gas to get to a gas station the next day too!

Do I expect an "experience " as the apostles had , I might if I was doing the same work the apostles were doing with the same amount of faith .

Yes, biblical principles work. In all humility I can honestly say, I'm not an apostle, though. ;)

The power is through the Holy Spirit as He wills it . All the glory goes to God .

That is the most important truth. All virtue belongs to Him. He loans out His virtue on a regular basis--I would say even on a constant basis, though we don't always feel like it.

Sometimes a "word of knowledge" comes in a dream to me . I understand what you say .

An example of one experience I had with the "word of knowledge" came many years ago as I was passing out Christian tracts on the street--I don't do that anymore. I happened to give a tract to a military guy guarding the entrance to a Navy Yard. About half a block away I saw the guy, spiritually--not physically, reading the tract and feeling convicted. I walked all the way down there to talk to him again, and saw him reading the tract. I just said,, "Feeling convicted huh?" And he said, "Yea!"

Wow , if one did have all the Gifts , don't forget Satan will certainly have his eye on you if this is so .

I don't believe in "the more gifts the better." God zeroes in on what He wants us to do. So it would be strange indeed to ask to pray for someone's healing while witnessing to others and prophesying to a brother something that will happen to him. ;)

We need to zero in on what our general ministry is, and focus on that, and not get sidetracked on how many gifts we have and how small we look in our own eyes. Anything we do for the Lord is worth a million to God in terms of faithfulness and obedience to HIm.

The greater the gift(s) , the greater the responsibilities . A Christian needs to understand what they are asking for and be ready . I prayed to God , " Give me something to do for the Kingdom of God " , the results are an eye opening experience , to say the least .

That's a true honor to have the King of the universe respond to you, and concur that you're worth investing in. Take care....

 

[RandyK]

Yessir, my bad again, I have no problem admitting when I blew it.

But yes hopefully one day someone will be able to provide an adequate explanation on why this is continuing in the church and hopefully find ways to raise awareness about it.

Well, to be honest, I wasn't sure which direction you were coming from? Were you all for "Tongues for all" and simply wanting more Christians to be brave, trying to prophesy and work miracles of healing?

Or, were you questioning whether they were largely fake? Since I didn't know where you were coming from, I volunteered to explain where I'm coming from.

I believe in the Gifts--I just don't believe in "Tongues for all." I do think Tongues takes place more frequently because it it easy to fake, whether the intention to fake it is there or not, whether it is indeed fake or not. People aren't afraid to do it because there is less accountability than with miracles.

I believe that in healing ministries, like Benny Hinn, lots of it is likely phony, though sincerely believed in. But I believe that there are also significant healings taking place. It's doctrine that causes the inconsistency in my opinion. Do you have a view on these things?

 

[hawkman]

a believer who does not speaking in tongues is spiritually lacking ,substandard, inadequate to a believer who does.

That thought has never crossed my mind . Parish the thought that it should .
Thanks for clarifying for me .

 

[Rookie]

Well, to be honest, I wasn't sure which direction you were coming from? Were you all for "Tongues for all" and simply wanting more Christians to be brave, trying to prophesy and work miracles of healing?

Or, were you questioning whether they were largely fake? Since I didn't know where you were coming from, I volunteered to explain where I'm coming from.

I believe in the Gifts--I just don't believe in "Tongues for all." I do think Tongues takes place more frequently because it it easy to fake, whether the intention to fake it is there or not, whether it is indeed fake or not. People aren't afraid to do it because there is less accountability than with miracles.

I believe that in healing ministries, like Benny Hinn, lots of it is likely phony, though sincerely believed in. But I believe that there are also significant healings taking place. It's doctrine that causes the inconsistency in my opinion. Do you have a view on these things?

I do believe in all the gifts too, I didn't believe that a lot more of them are faked and tongues is the easiest to fake cuz there's no way to verify it

 

[RandyK]

I do believe in all the gifts too, I didn't believe that a lot more of them are faked and tongues is the easiest to fake cuz there's no way to verify it

Yea, I can't tell what's real most of the time. I don't have access to language interpretation programs and medical records when I would need them. The spiritual atmosphere tells me God is there. God would never be fooled, but He can also put up with a lot because He's kind and gracious.

 

[My Rock]

I also believe if Tongues are faked I think the one person God would give the Spirit of Discernment to is the Pastor who should, if church is truly led of the real Spirit of God, immediately tell that person they are out of order or that is not of God. Seen it before personally.

 

[RandyK]

I also believe if Tongues are faked I think the one person God would give the Spirit of Discernment to is the Pastor who should, if church is truly led of the real Spirit of God, immediately tell that person they are out of order or that is not of God. Seen it before personally.

However we may think God should do it, it is God who determines what He will do, who He will give the "Discerning of spirits" to, and even whether the church will be given the kind of leadership that will be responsible. It is conceivable in my mind, after sitting under pastors all my life, that some pastors would be as prone to deception or to the temptation to concoct as any elders or members in the congregation.

I might even suggest that pastors are equally suseptible to practicing either false Tongues or false Prophecy themselves. We should not think that false Tongues or false Prophecy cannot take place, including among the church leadership. We've been warned that it would take place!

This doesn't mean that all fake religious practices are intentionally designed to deceive. We can actually perform certain rituals that are uninspired and incapable of producing effects we believe will take place. Catholics believe that certain religious exercises will merit certain responses from God, which I do not believe to necessarily be true.

Anyway, my point is that we cannot trust Man, but I think you're right to trust God to some degree. I do pray God gives us responsible leaders who will keep the spiritual gifts real!

My wish is not to just relegate these practices to "discernment," though this can be effective. It is equally important to apply the Scriptures on these matters. And that's where I maintain my arguments both pro and con Tongues practice.

 

[My Rock]

However we may think God should do it, it is God who determines what He will do, who He will give the "Discerning of spirits" to, and even whether the church will be given the kind of leadership that will be responsible. It is conceivable in my mind, after sitting under pastors all my life, that some pastors would be as prone to deception or to the temptation to concoct as any elders or members in the congregation.

I might even suggest that pastors are equally suseptible to practicing either false Tongues or false Prophecy themselves. We should not think that false Tongues or false Prophecy cannot take place, including among the church leadership. We've been warned that it would take place!

This doesn't mean that all fake religious practices are intentionally designed to deceive. We can actually perform certain rituals that are uninspired and incapable of producing effects we believe will take place. Catholics believe that certain religious exercises will merit certain responses from God, which I do not believe to necessarily be true.

Anyway, my point is that we cannot trust Man, but I think you're right to trust God to some degree. I do pray God gives us responsible leaders who will keep the spiritual gifts real!

My wish is not to just relegate these practices to "discernment," though this can be effective. It is equally important to apply the Scriptures on these matters. And that's where I maintain my arguments both pro and con Tongues practice.

The way you refuted what I said you sound more 100% con for Tongues? Besides look very carefully at this part of my comment "if church is truly led of the real Spirit of God" If the church IS LED BY GOD discernment will be given to the Pastor. If you don't believe that than you don't believe God can lead His own Church.

 

[My Rock]

I see you capitalized the H in his.

One can google his name and see websites about all the contradictions in his supposed resurrection.

"One can google his name and see websites about all the contradictions in his supposed resurrection."

Never did produce me any of the links you are saying exist, because you can't find any!

 

[My Rock]

If you're a skeptic of speaking in tongues you may lack the qualifications to effectively respond to a thread on tongues in the church today:

1. Lack of Personal Experience: If you have never personally experienced speaking in tongues, singing in tongues, or interceding in tongues you lack the necessary firsthand knowledge to accurately understand or critique the practice. Without personal experience, their arguments may be based on speculation rather than genuine understanding.
2. Limited Understanding of Pentecostal Theology: Those are not familiar with the doctrinal and theological underpinnings of Pentecostals (NOT A RELIGION BY THE WAY BUT AN EXPERIENCE OUTLINED IN SCRIPTURE) may struggle to grasp the significance of tongues within this tradition. Their critiques may overlook or misunderstand key theological concepts that are essential to the practice.
3. Inability to Discern Spiritual Phenomena: If you do not believe in or acknowledge the possibility of supernatural spiritual experiences, you may be ill-equipped to engage in a meaningful discussion about tongues, which are considered by believers to be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Your disbelief could limit your capacity to objectively evaluate the phenomenon.
4. Bias Against Charismatic Practices: If you come from non-charismatic or cessationist background you hold biases against charismatic practices like speaking in tongues. This pre-existing bias could prevent you from engaging with the topic in a fair and open-minded manner, leading to dismissive or overly critical responses.
5. Over Reliance on Rationalism and Empiricism: If you prioritize rationalism and empirical evidence you may discount personal spiritual experiences as invalid simply because they cannot be scientifically measured or explained. This narrow focus on empirical data may prevent you from appreciating the subjective and deeply personal nature of speaking in tongues.
6. Lack of Engagement with Diverse Testimonies: If you have not taken the time to listen to or engage with the testimonies of those who practice speaking in tongues, you may lack a well-rounded perspective. Dismissing these experiences without considering the diversity of personal accounts could weaken your ability to respond effectively.
7. Inadequate Understanding of Linguistic and Cultural Contexts: If you are unfamiliar with the linguistic and cultural contexts in which tongues are spoken you may miss the nuances of the practice. Your critiques may fail to account for the varying ways in which tongues are understood and practiced across different cultures and languages.
8. Dismissal of the Role of Faith: If you do not acknowledge the role of faith in the practice of speaking in tongues, you may be unable to fully grasp why believers consider it a vital and authentic expression of their spiritual lives. Your critiques may miss the significance of faith as a lens through which tongues are experienced and understood.
9. Inexperience with Charismatic Worship: Those who have never participated in or observed charismatic worship services may lack the contextual understanding needed to accurately evaluate the role of tongues within these settings. Their critiques may be based on misconceptions or incomplete information.
10. Potential Misunderstanding of Scriptural Interpretations: If you do not share the same scriptural interpretations as Pentecostals you may struggle to engage with the biblical basis for speaking in tongues. Without a thorough understanding of the relevant passages and their interpretations, your arguments may lack depth and relevance.

 

[RandyK]

The way you refuted what I said you sound more 100% con for Tongues? Besides look very carefully at this part of my comment "if church is truly led of the real Spirit of God" If the church IS LED BY GOD discernment will be given to the Pastor. If you don't believe that than you don't believe God can lead His own Church.

No, I'm not against what you're saying--I tried to explain that. What I'm cautious about is a reckless trust in God when God is calling us to a more responsible living. I say this not out of the blue, or just conjecture, but out of an *entire life* of living in the church. I could give you very specific details on this.

For example, a recent pastor we had gave a "prophecy" that was highly agitating for the worship team. This pastor was actually the pastor's wife--she is a pastor too. She "prophesied" that the Devil was in the worship team, which she later explained was not as negative as it may have sounded. ;)

At the end of it all, our church broke up, the board vs the pastor, and the denomination reducing our status from independed to "pioneer.' The denomination had to appoint a new pastor completely out of our hands. So yes, pastors may possibly get the gifts of the Spirit wrong. In a perfect world we wouldn't have these problems.

But I wasn't "refuting" you. I was cautiously warning you that "blind trust" sets in when we ignore Scriptural guidelines, which I hope you're not doing? Again, Paul suggested that not all have the gift of Tongues, because it is given by the Spirit at His discretion. If it is inaccurately suggested that we should all have a "Prayer Language," then when an entire assembly is encouraged to practice "Group Tongues" then clearly much of that is "fake." And I can't expect the pastor to deal with it properly if he has been indoctrinated in the belief that Group Tongues is right and proper.

 

[RandyK]

If you're a skeptic of speaking in tongues you may lack the qualifications to effectively respond to a thread on tongues in the church today...

On the other hand, if you're biased pro Tongues On Demand, you may not wish to be challenged by what the Scripture says on the subject if it does not agree with your position. That is certainly your right not to be challenged, if that's what you wish to do?

I don't know if you direct this at me, because it is an independent post on this thread. But you recently suggested that I'm "con Tongues," which is clearly untrue. If I'm stirring up animosity in you by challenging your position, then I need to end my involvement in this thread. I wish for you the best regardless...

 

[My Rock]

No, I'm not against what you're saying--I tried to explain that. What I'm cautious about is a reckless trust in God when God is calling us to a more responsible living. I say this not out of the blue, or just conjecture, but out of an *entire life* of living in the church. I could give you very specific details on this.

For example, a recent pastor we had gave a "prophecy" that was highly agitating for the worship team. This pastor was actually the pastor's wife--she is a pastor too. She "prophesied" that the Devil was in the worship team, which she later explained was not as negative as it may have sounded. ;)

At the end of it all, our church broke up, the board vs the pastor, and the denomination reducing our status from independed to "pioneer.' The denomination had to appoint a new pastor completely out of our hands. So yes, pastors may possibly get the gifts of the Spirit wrong. In a perfect world we wouldn't have these problems.

But I wasn't "refuting" you. I was cautiously warning you that "blind trust" sets in when we ignore Scriptural guidelines, which I hope you're not doing? Again, Paul suggested that not all have the gift of Tongues, because it is given by the Spirit at His discretion. If it is inaccurately suggested that we should all have a "Prayer Language," then when an entire assembly is encouraged to practice "Group Tongues" then clearly much of that is "fake." And I can't expect the pastor to deal with it properly if he has been indoctrinated in the belief that Group Tongues is right and proper.

I strictly adhere to orderly worship and carefully follow 1 Corinthians Chapter 14. Anything that doesn't follow that prescription is out of order. Group tongues should never be done during quiet reflections of service, which are reserved for a message in tongues that needs interpretation; otherwise, you are to be silent, speaking to yourself and to God. Group tongues can and often do happen in Pentecostal settings that believe in speaking in tongues. However, group tongues should be done between you and God and not purposely spoken for others to hear. They should only be done during altar calls, song services, or prayer meetings. I do believe that if the church were a multinational congregation and people overheard these prayers during a song service or altar call, it would be a repeat of Acts Chapter 2.

 

[My Rock]

On the other hand, if you're biased pro Tongues On Demand, you may not wish to be challenged by what the Scripture says on the subject if it does not agree with your position. That is certainly your right not to be challenged, if that's what you wish to do?

I don't know if you direct this at me, because it is an independent post on this thread. But you recently suggested that I'm "con Tongues," which is clearly untrue. If I'm stirring up animosity in you by challenging your position, then I need to end my involvement in this thread. I wish for you the best regardless...

No animosity at all, I am enjoying this thread and its giving me a lot of insight on how some here believe. When I post a comment standalone it is in General to all in the thread and not naming anyone specific.

 

[electedbyHim]

If you're a skeptic of speaking in tongues you may lack the qualifications to effectively respond to a thread on tongues in the church today:

1. Lack of Personal Experience: If you have never personally experienced speaking in tongues, singing in tongues, or interceding in tongues you lack the necessary firsthand knowledge to accurately understand or critique the practice. Without personal experience, their arguments may be based on speculation rather than genuine understanding.
2. Limited Understanding of Pentecostal Theology: Those are not familiar with the doctrinal and theological underpinnings of Pentecostals (NOT A RELIGION BY THE WAY BUT AN EXPERIENCE OUTLINED IN SCRIPTURE) may struggle to grasp the significance of tongues within this tradition. Their critiques may overlook or misunderstand key theological concepts that are essential to the practice.
3. Inability to Discern Spiritual Phenomena: If you do not believe in or acknowledge the possibility of supernatural spiritual experiences, you may be ill-equipped to engage in a meaningful discussion about tongues, which are considered by believers to be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Your disbelief could limit your capacity to objectively evaluate the phenomenon.
4. Bias Against Charismatic Practices: If you come from non-charismatic or cessationist background you hold biases against charismatic practices like speaking in tongues. This pre-existing bias could prevent you from engaging with the topic in a fair and open-minded manner, leading to dismissive or overly critical responses.
5. Over Reliance on Rationalism and Empiricism: If you prioritize rationalism and empirical evidence you may discount personal spiritual experiences as invalid simply because they cannot be scientifically measured or explained. This narrow focus on empirical data may prevent you from appreciating the subjective and deeply personal nature of speaking in tongues.
6. Lack of Engagement with Diverse Testimonies: If you have not taken the time to listen to or engage with the testimonies of those who practice speaking in tongues, you may lack a well-rounded perspective. Dismissing these experiences without considering the diversity of personal accounts could weaken your ability to respond effectively.
7. Inadequate Understanding of Linguistic and Cultural Contexts: If you are unfamiliar with the linguistic and cultural contexts in which tongues are spoken you may miss the nuances of the practice. Your critiques may fail to account for the varying ways in which tongues are understood and practiced across different cultures and languages.
8. Dismissal of the Role of Faith: If you do not acknowledge the role of faith in the practice of speaking in tongues, you may be unable to fully grasp why believers consider it a vital and authentic expression of their spiritual lives. Your critiques may miss the significance of faith as a lens through which tongues are experienced and understood.
9. Inexperience with Charismatic Worship: Those who have never participated in or observed charismatic worship services may lack the contextual understanding needed to accurately evaluate the role of tongues within these settings. Their critiques may be based on misconceptions or incomplete information.
10. Potential Misunderstanding of Scriptural Interpretations: If you do not share the same scriptural interpretations as Pentecostals you may struggle to engage with the biblical basis for speaking in tongues. Without a thorough understanding of the relevant passages and their interpretations, your arguments may lack depth and relevance.

My qualifications are Biblical.

As I have said, I have been down this path for a while. I hands on experience in this denomination.

I understand I am not as spiritual as those who claim to have these sign gifts, I lack faith and how Pentecosta/charismatics interpret the Scriptures, lack Holy Spirit for understanding and probably really not saved because I do not speak in tongues.

What has always interested me with this denomination is that what they believe is always based on feelings, emotions and experiences, they also blame satan and seem talk more about him than Jesus Christ.

Many are always seeking that next experience.

I am not trying to change anyones mind on what they believe only Holy Spirit can convict His own of this.

I appreciate your replies and you are defending what you believe.

There are many times that I need to defend what I believe, the Doctrines of Grace being one of them.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[My Rock]

What has always interested me with this denomination is that what they believe is always based on feelings, emotions and experiences, they also blame satan and seem talk more about him than Jesus Christ.

For the mass majority probably true. But my belief in speaking in tongues is rooted in Scripture. Many of those churches don't seek from God the proper discernment to act and lead according to what was written in 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 for orderly worship of tongues. Which has led to the reason some believe the way they do against tongues. I am deeply Godly sorrowing for those who are bringing shame to such a wonderful gift.

 

[electedbyHim]

For the mass majority probably true. But my belief in speaking in tongues is rooted in Scripture. Many of those churches don't seek from God the proper discernment to act and lead according to what was written in 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 for orderly worship of tongues. Which has led to the reason some believe the way they do against tongues. I am deeply Godly sorrowing for those who are bringing shame to such a wonderful gift.

I will agree.

There are 12 rules to follow in 1 Corinthians 14 when speaking in a known language.

If one of those rules are broken, it is not from Holy Spirit.

However many people will not apply hermeutical principles and spin the commands that Paul wrote.

I believe the common goal of all true Christians is to bring glory to the Lord in all we do, it is all of Him.

It sadens me that I fail at that.

 

[RandyK]

I strictly adhere to orderly worship and carefully follow 1 Corinthians Chapter 14. Anything that doesn't follow that prescription is out of order. Group tongues should never be done during quiet reflections of service, which are reserved for a message in tongues that needs interpretation; otherwise, you are to be silent, speaking to yourself and to God. Group tongues can and often do happen in Pentecostal settings that believe in speaking in tongues. However, group tongues should be done between you and God and not purposely spoken for others to hear. They should only be done during altar calls, song services, or prayer meetings. I do believe that if the church were a multinational congregation and people overheard these prayers during a song service or altar call, it would be a repeat of Acts Chapter 2.

I don't personally get upset with Group Tongues, which is not what I was specifically thinking of. Rather, I was referring to the *requirement* that the entire Group speak in Tongues in order to qualify as "Spirit-Baptized." Not so much the entire Group speaking at the same time, but the whole Group being required to have the Gift of Tongues.

Although the Scriptures do seem to speak against Tongues in church without interpretation I've lived with Tongues being part of the regular worship for years without being bothered. My wife speaks in Tongues sometimes as we sing in worship, and it bothers nobody. When someone delivers a Tongue more publicly or openly, and no interpretation follows, nothing further Tongue is normally given--no problem.

I was speaking of Paul's apparent suggestion that not all speak in Tongues, ie "do all speak in Tongues?" Just like not all are apostles and should not act like one, so not all speak in Tongues and so not all should exercise a "Prayer Language." This runs contrary to Pentecostal Doctrine which suggests that all should have and exercise a "Prayer Language."

I'm not personally offended by this, since I've been in churches that believe this for more than 50 years! But to advocate for it without at least considering Paul's statement on this matter seems irresponsible, particularly when we are just trusting in the "pastor's discernment." We should consider both the pastor's wisdom as well as what Paul has to say on the matter, right? We may disagree, and that's fine, but we should look not just to "discernment of the leadership," but also to the Scriptures. That was my only point.