'Speaking in Tongues', true vs false.

[JLB]

And why do you keep asking this same question? It's pretty obvious that P/C dogma is your agenda here, since I adequately answered this question days ago.
TD

I don't know what PC dogma is, I'm asking a biblical question.

And it happened, while Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
Acts 19:1-2

Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”

 

[tdidymas]

TD,

Would you please provide the evidence (with examples) of Pentecostal/Charismatic dogma that states miracles ought to be common and that every Christian should be doing them?

Oz

It was taught in every church and conference I attended in the 20 years I fellowshipped in those circles. And besides that, AG doctrine officially states that the initial evidence of baptism in the Spirit is speaking in tongues, and it is taught and expected for every Christian to have that experience. And consider the so-called revivals in Toronto, Florida, and other places where people flocked to get a piece of the action.

Therefore how can you even ask such a question, knowing P/C doctrine? Dogma is simply doctrine that is the expectation of every spiritual leader to be followed, and if someone doesn't follow it, they are excluded from the "inner circle." IOW, agree with their opinion, or you're out.

Furthermore, many Pentecostals still hold to the traditional idea that if you haven't spoken in tongues, you're not saved. Even though that idea has been diminishing in the past few decades, it is still prolific in some circles, and the prejudice about tongues prevails among them all.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
Hebrews 2:3-4

I guess now that you see that "those" refers to those who heard and confirmed what the Lord spoke about salvation rather than those who did miracles and signs which totally refutes your erroneous interpretation of the passage and your theory.

Which is why you're trying to change the subject.

"God also bearing witness..." is referring to those in the context, not to someone else.

The subject of my conversation was originally about modern tongues not being Biblical, so who's really changing the subject?
TD

 

[JLB]

"God also bearing witness..." is referring to those in the context, not to someone else.

The subject of my conversation was originally about modern tongues not being Biblical, so who's really changing the subject?
TD

Because you based your theory on the word “them”.

Here is your quote —

Heb. 2:4 "God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will."

In this statement, the writer of Hebrews is excluding himself from those who performed signs and wonders, since he wrote "God also testifying with them." Therefore, since a very prominent person in the 1st century church did not have any of those miraculous gifts, it is quite unreasonable to think those gifts ought to be common in the church today

For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? Hebrews 2:2-4


As we all see when we include the context, those is referring to those who testified not those who did miracles as the context shows, it was God who did the signs and wonders testifying that the Gospel message of salvation was from Him.


So your theory that the writer of the book of Hebrews did not consider himself among those who performed signs and wonders, and gifts of the Spirit, is completely false, as we see the writer of the book of Hebrews was referring to “those” who heard Christ and His message of salvation.

IOW, the writer of the book of Hebrews was not among “those” who heard Him.


But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jude 17-21



JLB

 

[Hopeful]

TD,

I was once a cessationist like you - I was a Baptist cessationist. Then the Lord opened my eyes to the Scriptures and the full range of the gifts of the Spirit, including speaking in tongues and using the gift of interpretation (not translation). I have been blessed by the ministry of these gifts, although I must say tongues, interpretation and prophecy have not been my primary gift.

Eulogia,
Oz

With the word "translation", you differentiate between the translatable gift of tongues in Greek, Parthian, Mede, (& Spanish), (Acts 2:11) from tongues in an unknown 'angel's' tongue which require interpretation.(1 Cor 14:2).
Right?
I am reminded that there are "diversities" in the gift of tongues.

 

[OzSpen]

It was taught in every church and conference I attended in the 20 years I fellowshipped in those circles. And besides that, AG doctrine officially states that the initial evidence of baptism in the Spirit is speaking in tongues, and it is taught and expected for every Christian to have that experience. And consider the so-called revivals in Toronto, Florida, and other places where people flocked to get a piece of the action.

TD,

This is not the teaching of the Assemblies of God whose statement of 16 fundamental truths includes, 'The baptism of believers in the Holy Spirit is witnessed by the initial physical sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit of God gives them utterance'.

Furthermore, many Pentecostals still hold to the traditional idea that if you haven't spoken in tongues, you're not saved. Even though that idea has been diminishing in the past few decades, it is still prolific in some circles, and the prejudice about tongues prevails among them all.

There are very few Pentecostals who believe tongues is a sign of salvation. Oneness Pentecostal (non-Trinitarian) groups are Pentecostal cults that believe speaking in tongues is necessary as a sign of salvation.

Wonderful International Ministries (WIM) leader Prophet Henry Mandishona insists that every believer should speak in tongues.​

He quoted Mark 16 verses 16-17, which says signs would follow those who believe and will be able to speak in other tongues. “Speaking in another tongue as the Holy Spirit gives utterance is the initial evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit. However, after this initial baptism, one can speak in other tongues as the spirit gives utterance.

“There are people who speak in tongues as a gift and these can speak via the gift at any given time. To answer your question, should every Christian speak in a tongue? Yes.” Life Giving Ministries International founder Prophet Lazarus Mashavave said speaking in tongues is a sign for an unbeliever to believe (Tongues: Proof of Salvation?)

Here in Australia there is a mini-Pentecostal denomination (cult) that believes in the need for tongues to demonstrate one is a Christian. It's called Revival Centres Church. It has centres around the world.

It is not recognised as a denomination within mainstream Pentecostalism. It is 'promoting a "tongues only" salvation' and thus is a cult. I'd go so far as to say it's a heresy.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

With the word "translation", you differentiate between the translatable gift of tongues in Greek, Parthian, Mede, (& Spanish), (Acts 2:11) from tongues in an unknown 'angel's' tongue which require interpretation.(1 Cor 14:2).
Right?
I am reminded that there are "diversities" in the gift of tongues.

Hopeful,

There are 3 dimensions of the gift of tongues in Scripture:

1. On the Day of Pentecost people heard this way: 'each of us hears them in our native language' (Ac 2:8 NIV);
2. One of the verses you mentioned: The one who speaks to God, who is not speaking to human beings (1 Cor 14:2 NIV). My understanding is that this refers to the use of tongues as a prayer language - speaking to God.
3. Then there is the gift of tongues that requires the gift of interpretation when it's delivered in the congregation - so the congregation can be edified (1 Cor 14:13-17 NIV).

Oz

 

[stovebolts]

It was taught in every church and conference I attended in the 20 years I fellowshipped in those circles. And besides that, AG doctrine officially states that the initial evidence of baptism in the Spirit is speaking in tongues, and it is taught and expected for every Christian to have that experience. And consider the so-called revivals in Toronto, Florida, and other places where people flocked to get a piece of the action.

Therefore how can you even ask such a question, knowing P/C doctrine? Dogma is simply doctrine that is the expectation of every spiritual leader to be followed, and if someone doesn't follow it, they are excluded from the "inner circle." IOW, agree with their opinion, or you're out.

Furthermore, many Pentecostals still hold to the traditional idea that if you haven't spoken in tongues, you're not saved. Even though that idea has been diminishing in the past few decades, it is still prolific in some circles, and the prejudice about tongues prevails among them all.
TD

I was curious how long it would take for this to come out. Let me explain.
I have noticed within Christianity that most Christians rail against injustices within the fold. I am reminded of Jesus overturning the tables of the money changers in the temple, and from that perspective, I commend you. If the church had the zeal for the church like you do, these injustices would cease to exist.

I worked with a guy years ago who was raised Pentecostal and tells me how he was pressured at a youth rally to speak in tongues as a sign of his salvation. After some time, the pressure on him was so heavy he just started some mumbo jumbo gibberish so the youth leader and others would get off his back. He later left the church with a sour taste in his mouth for the church.

These injustices within the church need to be exposed and rooted out. But in our zeal to do so, we ought not throw the baby out with the bath water. In other words, if our zeal becomes misdirected, we can become part of the problem, and we can look at Paul as an example.

Saul was a man who loved God and had a burning desire to serve him, and uphold Gods good name. His zeal for God was so great, he approved the death of Stephen because Stephen was blaspheming God by saying Jesus was the Messiah. But Sauls zeal did not end there and he persecuted the entire church, that is, before he realized the truth.

Do some churches distort Gods truth in the matter of speaking in tongues? There is no doubt. And this is an area we can unite in. But because some churches distort the truth does not mean it’s not based on truth. Even Satan masquerades as an angel of light and his intent is for us to see the lie and throw the truth away with the lie. This has been Satans biggest tool in destroying the truth. It’s simple really. Twist the truth in such an obvious way that the truth in its entirety is rejected. It’s sad that the church has lost its discernment over matters imo.

I believe tongues still exist, and I believe that men capitalize on this and abuse this truth. Not everyone who is saved receives the gift of tongues but for those that do, we ought not invalidate the gift God has granted them.

 

[WIP]

OzSpen, thank you for spelling out the acronyms that others are using. I was trying to figure out what P/C, PC, and AG meant and it was confusing to follow the discussions because of this. This is why I don't particularly like using acronyms. The assumption is that everyone knows what they stand for.

 

[tdidymas]

Because you based your theory on the word “them”.

Here is your quote —



For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? Hebrews 2:2-4


As we all see when we include the context, those is referring to those who testified not those who did miracles as the context shows, it was God who did the signs and wonders testifying that the Gospel message of salvation was from Him.


So your theory that the writer of the book of Hebrews did not consider himself among those who performed signs and wonders, and gifts of the Spirit, is completely false, as we see the writer of the book of Hebrews was referring to “those” who heard Christ and His message of salvation.

IOW, the writer of the book of Hebrews was not among “those” who heard Him.


But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. Jude 17-21



JLB

It sounds like you're making those who did miracles a different group than those who heard, but that's out of context. The evidence of translators show us that it's the same group:

KJV "God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?"
NASB "God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will."
NET "while God confirmed their witness with signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."
YLT "God also bearing joint-witness both with signs and wonders, and manifold powers, and distributions of the Holy Spirit, according to His will."

This indicates that your P/C bias is influencing your interpretation.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

TD,

This is not the teaching of the Assemblies of God whose statement of 16 fundamental truths includes, 'The baptism of believers in the Holy Spirit is witnessed by the initial physical sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit of God gives them utterance'.

Sans straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel, how is this any different than what I said?

There are very few Pentecostals who believe tongues is a sign of salvation. Oneness Pentecostal (non-Trinitarian) groups are Pentecostal cults that believe speaking in tongues is necessary as a sign of salvation.

Wonderful International Ministries (WIM) leader Prophet Henry Mandishona insists that every believer should speak in tongues.​

Here in Australia there is a mini-Pentecostal denomination (cult) that believes in the need for tongues to demonstrate one is a Christian. It's called Revival Centres Church. It has centres around the world.

It is not recognised as a denomination within mainstream Pentecostalism. It is 'promoting a "tongues only" salvation' and thus is a cult. I'd go so far as to say it's a heresy.

Oz

I agree that it's heresy, and what you say here confirms what I said about it.

But let me focus on my last point, that there is a prejudice about being Spirit-filled which is prevalent among P/Cs (Pentecostal/Charismatics), which originates in P/C doctrine about it, that whoever speaks in tongues is Spirit-filled, and whoever doesn't isn't. I don't know how this is in other countries, but in the U.S. it is abundant. I have seen this attitude among most of the P/Cs I fellowshipped with for 20 years, as well as pastors I have dealt with and keynote speakers also. One pastor actually stated that another Christian leader I associated with "does not have the Spirit," simply because he didn't use the same jargon which indicated he didn't speak in tongues like the P/Cs. One of the many reasons why I left the P/C fellowship was due to this attitude, and I've detected it also from one such person in this forum. IMO that doctrine resulting in the common prejudice is one of the evidences that the P/C movement is unbiblical.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

I was curious how long it would take for this to come out. Let me explain.
I have noticed within Christianity that most Christians rail against injustices within the fold. I am reminded of Jesus overturning the tables of the money changers in the temple, and from that perspective, I commend you. If the church had the zeal for the church like you do, these injustices would cease to exist.

I worked with a guy years ago who was raised Pentecostal and tells me how he was pressured at a youth rally to speak in tongues as a sign of his salvation. After some time, the pressure on him was so heavy he just started some mumbo jumbo gibberish so the youth leader and others would get off his back. He later left the church with a sour taste in his mouth for the church.

These injustices within the church need to be exposed and rooted out. But in our zeal to do so, we ought not throw the baby out with the bath water. In other words, if our zeal becomes misdirected, we can become part of the problem, and we can look at Paul as an example.

Saul was a man who loved God and had a burning desire to serve him, and uphold Gods good name. His zeal for God was so great, he approved the death of Stephen because Stephen was blaspheming God by saying Jesus was the Messiah. But Sauls zeal did not end there and he persecuted the entire church, that is, before he realized the truth.

Do some churches distort Gods truth in the matter of speaking in tongues? There is no doubt. And this is an area we can unite in. But because some churches distort the truth does not mean it’s not based on truth. Even Satan masquerades as an angel of light and his intent is for us to see the lie and throw the truth away with the lie. This has been Satans biggest tool in destroying the truth. It’s simple really. Twist the truth in such an obvious way that the truth in its entirety is rejected. It’s sad that the church has lost its discernment over matters imo.

I believe tongues still exist, and I believe that men capitalize on this and abuse this truth. Not everyone who is saved receives the gift of tongues but for those that do, we ought not invalidate the gift God has granted them.

I commend your kind and mature response to me on that comment. However, that was just one of the issues I addressed. Yes, I admit that what I wrote could be construed as stereotyping. But my point in using that minority opinion was to support the issue that there is a prejudice about tongues among the P/Cs. Perhaps I should have elaborated more on it, which I did later by writing this:

But let me focus on my last point, that there is a prejudice about being Spirit-filled which is prevalent among P/Cs (Pentecostal/Charismatics), which originates in P/C doctrine about it, that whoever speaks in tongues is Spirit-filled, and whoever doesn't isn't. I don't know how this is in other countries, but in the U.S. it is abundant. I have seen this attitude among most of the P/Cs I fellowshipped with for 20 years, as well as pastors I have dealt with and keynote speakers also. One pastor actually stated that another Christian leader I associated with "does not have the Spirit," simply because he didn't use the same jargon which indicated he didn't speak in tongues like the P/Cs. One of the many reasons why I left the P/C fellowship was due to this attitude, and I've detected it also from one such person in this forum. IMO the doctrine resulting in that common prejudice is one of the evidences that the P/C movement is unbiblical.

And yet, this is not the reason why I am "throwing out the baby with the bath water," although there may be various reasons that add to it. The main reason is because expert linguists say:
1. There is not enough structure or vocabulary in modern tongues to convey meaning.
2. Anyone can do it if they try, therefore it is not a miraculous action.

So what I am saying is that modern tongues is a natural human ability, and is not the same as the miraculous tongues of the NT, and this is what makes it a false sign. The more I converse with various people about the subject, the stronger my conviction that this is true.
TD

 

[JLB]

It sounds like you're making those who did miracles a different group than those who heard, but that's out of context. The evidence of translators show us that it's the same group:

KJV "God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?"
NASB "God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will."
NET "while God confirmed their witness with signs and wonders and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."
YLT "God also bearing joint-witness both with signs and wonders, and manifold powers, and distributions of the Holy Spirit, according to His will."

This indicates that your P/C bias is influencing your interpretation.
TD

Again I’m not P/C.


All the versions say that God is the one who testified to the message of salvation with signs wonders and gifts of the Holy Spirit.


You are the only one trying to twist this scripture into saying otherwise.

You have been proven to be in error. Again and again.


how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? Hebrews 2:3-4


The writer of the book of Hebrews says, “those” who heard heard Him, God also...


Those = those who heard Christ’s message of salvation.

God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

God did the signs and wonders.


if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him.

The Jews who were with Christ confirmed in person the message of Christ.

God also bearing witness.

The writer of the book of Hebrews is establishing the principle of authenticity by the confirmation of two or more witnesses.


That is the context.


Do you even understand that is what is being implied here?



JLB

 

[stovebolts]

And yet, this is not the reason why I am "throwing out the baby with the bath water," although there may be various reasons that add to it. The main reason is because expert linguists say:
1. There is not enough structure or vocabulary in modern tongues to convey meaning.
2. Anyone can do it if they try, therefore it is not a miraculous action.

It’s just a hunch, but I would be willing to bet that you found your two main reasonings based on your prior experience. In other words, your reasoning is a result of your experience. Again, I affirm the abuses in the P/C churches that you’ve addressed. They are real, not imagined. I would even partner with you in exposing them only because of the experience my co-worker described and I saw how it made him run (rightfully so) from what he knew was bogus.

I would like to tell you two more stories. I’ll try to be brief. I accepted Jesus when I was 13 and I was incarcerated. While in Juvenile, I was baptized and shortly after, while in my cell, something overcame me and words I did not understand came pouring out of my mouth. For me, it was very odd, but it felt right. I shared my experience with my Baptist friend who brought me to a Christ (and baptized me) and he said I was speaking in tongues. I had no idea what he was talking about. None.

In my 20’s I joined Scientology and helped build ASHO in Hollywood Ca. I worked side by side with the elite “Sea Org” members. A guy I knew had an amazing breakthrough in an “auditing” session. He was clearly shaken as he was able to speak fluent Chinese. He had never been to China and he never learned a second language. He and I were talking and again, he was shaken and lost. I told him the same thing happened in the Bible in Acts 2 and he perked up. He told me he was raised in a Christian family but denied and rejected the faith he was raised with. He had not seen nor spoke to his family in many years (they do that) but he had been thinking about Jesus and was struggling with the idea of Christianity. When I told him about Acts 2, he became cognate of the Holy Spirit and his funk left him and we parted. I believe he packed his things and headed home.

I have no reason to lie about either of these stories and I don’t have an issue with you believing tongues are a farce. In many cases, I think tongues may be forced and faked. But for me, I know what is true and I’m secure enough in my faith to not need to change your mind. What I do see between us is an opportunity to unite on the abuses within the church on this matter.

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful,

There are 3 dimensions of the gift of tongues in Scripture:

1. On the Day of Pentecost people heard this way: 'each of us hears them in our native language' (Ac 2:8 NIV);
2. One of the verses you mentioned: The one who speaks to God, who is not speaking to human beings (1 Cor 14:2 NIV). My understanding is that this refers to the use of tongues as a prayer language - speaking to God.
3. Then there is the gift of tongues that requires the gift of interpretation when it's delivered in the congregation - so the congregation can be edified (1 Cor 14:13-17 NIV).

Oz

I see numbers 1 and 3 as the same thing.
We can (2) pray in tongues for our own edification or we can (1-3) publicly speak in tongues, with an interpreter present, for the edification of the church.
That speaking need not be a known language.
It is the same Spirit.

Your use of the word "dimensions", however, does seem apt.
"Facets" would also work well.

 

[tdidymas]

It’s just a hunch, but I would be willing to bet that you found your two main reasonings based on your prior experience. In other words, your reasoning is a result of your experience. Again, I affirm the abuses in the P/C churches that you’ve addressed. They are real, not imagined. I would even partner with you in exposing them only because of the experience my co-worker described and I saw how it made him run (rightfully so) from what he knew was bogus.

I would like to tell you two more stories. I’ll try to be brief. I accepted Jesus when I was 13 and I was incarcerated. While in Juvenile, I was baptized and shortly after, while in my cell, something overcame me and words I did not understand came pouring out of my mouth. For me, it was very odd, but it felt right. I shared my experience with my Baptist friend who brought me to a Christ (and baptized me) and he said I was speaking in tongues. I had no idea what he was talking about. None.

In my 20’s I joined Scientology and helped build ASHO in Hollywood Ca. I worked side by side with the elite “Sea Org” members. A guy I knew had an amazing breakthrough in an “auditing” session. He was clearly shaken as he was able to speak fluent Chinese. He had never been to China and he never learned a second language. He and I were talking and again, he was shaken and lost. I told him the same thing happened in the Bible in Acts 2 and he perked up. He told me he was raised in a Christian family but denied and rejected the faith he was raised with. He had not seen nor spoke to his family in many years (they do that) but he had been thinking about Jesus and was struggling with the idea of Christianity. When I told him about Acts 2, he became cognate of the Holy Spirit and his funk left him and we parted. I believe he packed his things and headed home.

I have no reason to lie about either of these stories and I don’t have an issue with you believing tongues are a farce. In many cases, I think tongues may be forced and faked. But for me, I know what is true and I’m secure enough in my faith to not need to change your mind. What I do see between us is an opportunity to unite on the abuses within the church on this matter.

I've heard all of about 4 times in my life that someone somewhere spoke in tongues miraculously in a known language they didn't learn. If this is true and not exaggerated (as is typical among Charismatics), then I would certainly accept it as fact, as I am not a staunch cessationist. I have heard also of healings which I believe were true, even though many P/Cs report healings that never happened. It is unfortunate that there is so much of the false that the true signs are obscured into oblivion. I am certainly open to the miraculous happening, but you no doubt understand my skepticism due to the prolific exaggerations as well as abuses in those denominations. I'm waiting for a true and unbiased evaluation of someone who spoke in Biblical tongues (with evidence to show). I've asked for it numerous times in forums, but so far no one has come up with it.

Also, just to let you know I've also had very powerful experiences that changed my personality while fellowshipping among P/Cs. I don't consider those denominations all bad, and neither as cults. Of course, God can use anything He wants, even among those in serious error.

However, some things you said makes it difficult to accept your 2nd story, such as the involvement in Scientology which is well known as a cult. It brings up additional questions. How do you know he spoke fluent Chinese - did you hear it yourself, or was this hearsay? How do you know he wasn't possessed by a demon, seeing it was a cult session (I don't know what they do there)? What about follow-up - did you see him later, and was he growing as a Christian?

Finally, the two main reasons I cited are based on research, not on my personal subjective experience. However, I'll let you know what my experience of tongues was, which does correlate: I was one of the common cases in which false tongues was taught to me, by someone saying "speak, but not in English." I did begin speaking gibberish, and was told to practice it daily. Since I was a new Christian and ignorant of correct interpretation of scripture, I just accepted it as the gift of the Spirit. However, every time I began to practice it as I was told by those I respected, it just felt like something was wrong with it, but I confused it with timidity. Some time later, I got hard-hearted about it by deciding I was going to practice it daily regardless of how I felt about it. Approximately 3 weeks into it and getting better and more fluent at it, I heard God's voice from heaven telling me, "This is not of Me." It shocked me into silence. But even then, I was afraid of telling anyone about it for many years. It has only been recently (in the past few years) after my research that I became confident enough to debate on the issue. So far, I have not heard anyone speaking in modern tongues that was clearly a language with a message. Every interpretation of tongues I've heard was someone's attempt to be Biblical about the activity. In fact, I've even done that myself. So at this point, I consider it fraudulent activity, and I think it's time to start exposing it, if we really love the people of God and rejoice in the truth.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Again I’m not P/C.


All the versions say that God is the one who testified to the message of salvation with signs wonders and gifts of the Holy Spirit.


You are the only one trying to twist this scripture into saying otherwise.

You have been proven to be in error. Again and again.


how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? Hebrews 2:3-4


The writer of the book of Hebrews says, “those” who heard heard Him, God also...


Those = those who heard Christ’s message of salvation.

God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

God did the signs and wonders.


if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him.

The Jews who were with Christ confirmed in person the message of Christ.

God also bearing witness.

The writer of the book of Hebrews is establishing the principle of authenticity by the confirmation of two or more witnesses.


That is the context.


Do you even understand that is what is being implied here?



JLB

You definitely have a P/C bias in your interpretation, because you have a vested interest in believing that your glossolalia is from God. And you have been adept at derailing the conversation, since you want to make this about cessationism as opposed to the OP about whether or not modern tongues is authentic. I stand on my interpretation, and I'm done arguing with you about it.
TD

 

[stovebolts]

Thank you for opening up and telling me your story. I hope I can reply answering all that you’ve asked of me. Forgive me if I mess something and then remind me. I will try my best. I am actually thankful that you are skeptical and know your in good company because even Thomas needed to put his hand in Jesus side. No doubt he had experienced fraud within religion as well.

speaking for myself, I was not raised in the church. I was bounced between foster homes and a Catholic orphanage. I was a troubled youth that came to Christ in Juvenile by a KJV Baptist. The past 22 years I have been a member of the conservative church of Christ which teaches that those signs and wonders were only for the first century church. In other words, P/C is the furthest from my experience. I’m ignorant For the most part. When I spoke in tongues, it freaked me out at first. I was alone in my cell when it happened and Ron had to explain it several days later. It confused me. Like yourself, some time later I started forcing it... faking it and God told me to stop. For me, it served its purpose.

As far as scientology, LRH took the best of many religions, including Christianity and made it his own. Just because it’s a cult does not mean it’s void of truth. The lie in Scientology is wrapped in truth. That being said, I’ve seen a few amazing things while I was there, but I won’t sidetrack. I can’t tell you much more about the man who spoke Chinese other then Scientology is an international organization and they found out it was Chinese by a member who was Chinese and English was his second language. Again, I can only assume he left the cult and went home to his Christian family. I have no way to verify this other than the feeling I got by talking to him privately.

 

[JLB]

You definitely have a P/C bias in your interpretation, because you have a vested interest in believing that your glossolalia is from God.

Yes I have been baptized with the Holy Spirit with the biblical evidence that is seen and heard.


Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I stand on my interpretation, and I'm done arguing with you about it.

There is no argument sir.

There is you denying what the scriptures plainly teach.

Nothing more.




JLB