'Speaking in Tongues', true vs false.

[tdidymas]

If it was a "Natrural Ability" then why couldn't I do it "before"??

You don't know, of course, and I knew it was useless to say anything right from the beginning.

Many times someone's personality changes because of some event or experience in their life. It's easily explained by psychological factors. Perhaps a person is subdued and fearful, and then something happens, or they find an ability to do something, that is conducive to acceptance with the group, which gives that person confidence and boosts their self-esteem, which makes them to express themselves more freely. Many times such experiences radically change the personality, and sometimes that person discovers he can do things he didn't think he could do before.

Such things happen often, and not even in a religious environment. If a religious environment is the venue in which this happens, it is easy to see how the religion is assumed to be the deciding factor. But such things happen often in the world, and are natural responses to events or experiences that trigger personality changes.

So, it is possible that speaking modern tongues was your trigger for a personality change. It doesn't prove that modern tongues is miraculous or is of the Holy Spirit. There are many different triggers for such changes, and none of those are proven to be miraculous, either.

I'm not saying that God doesn't use natural means for spiritual growth. I see the NT teaching that God does indeed use natural means. But God using natural means doesn't justify anyone saying that a natural ability is miraculous. I have experienced triggers for personality changes myself, and acknowledge that God used those for my spiritual growth, but I'm not so audacious as to claim those were miraculous events or actions.

My point is that just because you had a personality change and discovered an ability to teach the Bible doesn't prove that modern tongues is miraculous or of God or the same kind of tongues as described in the NT. So the question still stands, how exactly are you edified by speaking in tongues? Edification isn't a one-time happening. In the context of 1 Cor. 14, Paul is indicating that every time a person speaks in tongues they are edified. I'm wondering how that is for you, and how are you edified every time you speak it?
TD

 

[OzSpen]

I already addressed this by saying that expert linguists have carefully examined modern tongue-speaking, and have clearly shown that anyone can do it, whether they claim to be filled with the Spirit or not. No, it is not miraculous. NT miraculous tongues were proven to be so by the fact that the apostles spoke real languages, and people understood them.

TD,

Again, these are your presuppositions speaking. Modern miraculous tongue-speaking is not a human language or dialect. It is NOT a repeat of what happened on the Day of Pentecost. Instead, 1 Cor 12-14 makes it clear that in the public gathering of the ekklesia, it MUST be accompanied by the supernatural gift of interpretation (which is not the gift of translation).

I'm not convinced you are listening, so we'll leave it there.


Oz

 

[JLB]

Hopeful


There are two different operations of speaking in tongues.


One is part of the nine gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:1-11, and is mainly used in conjunction with its companion gift “interpretation of tongues”, but can operate on its own by the speaking of a language the speaker doesn't understand but the hearer does understand as in the day of Pentecost.

Tongues and interpretation, and prophesy is for the edification of the Church In a public setting.


The other operation is a prayer language for the individual by which he is edified inwardly and is aided by the Spirit in his private devotion.


Both praying in tongues and speaking in tongues with an interpretation is all “speaking” because words are being spoken.





JLB

 

[tdidymas]

TD,

Again, these are your presuppositions speaking. Modern miraculous tongue-speaking is not a human language or dialect. It is NOT a repeat of what happened on the Day of Pentecost. Instead, 1 Cor 12-14 makes it clear that in the public gathering of the ekklesia, it MUST be accompanied by the supernatural gift of interpretation (which is not the gift of translation).

I'm not convinced you are listening, so we'll leave it there.
View attachment 10101

Oz

Yet I could say the same about you, since what you claim here about "modern miraculous tongue-speaking" is your presuppositions. And IMO you are also wrong by assuming that interpretation doesn't mean translation. There has to be an actual message spoken in order for there to be an interpretation of it. And besides that your assertion "it MUST be accompanied by the supernatural gift of interpretation" is not the main point or objection I'm making, so who is not listening?
TD

 

[Hopeful]

Hopeful
There are two different operations of speaking in tongues.
One is part of the nine gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12:1-11, and is mainly used in conjunction with its companion gift “interpretation of tongues”, but can operate on its own by the speaking of a language the speaker doesn't understand but the hearer does understand as in the day of Pentecost.
Tongues and interpretation, and prophesy is for the edification of the Church In a public setting.
The other operation is a prayer language for the individual by which he is edified inwardly and is aided by the Spirit in his private devotion.
Both praying in tongues and speaking in tongues with an interpretation is all “speaking” because words are being spoken.
JLB

I agree totally.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

My point is that just because you had a personality change and discovered an ability to teach the Bible doesn't prove that modern tongues is miraculous or of God or the same kind of tongues as described in the NT. So the question still stands, how exactly are you edified by speaking in tongues? Edification isn't a one-time happening. In the context of 1 Cor. 14, Paul is indicating that every time a person speaks in tongues they are edified. I'm wondering how that is for you, and how are you edified every time you speak it?

We're done here. Nothing I say will make any sense to you at all, since you obviously follow the Cessationist paradigm. SO Go ahead and believe that God had nothing to do with any of it, "Tongues" are delusional, and I just had a "Personality change" if that lights your fire.

 

[JLB]

We're done here. Nothing I say will make any sense to you at all, since you obviously follow the Cessationist paradigm. SO Go ahead and believe that God had nothing to do with any of it, "Tongues" are delusional, and I just had a "Personality change" if that lights your fire.

Its sad people are missing out on what Jesus said is the Promise of the Father. The Bible calls this amazing gift "receiving the Holy Spirit".

God bless you Bob. Thanks for sharing with us, as I value your input here as a Spirit filled believer.

JLB

 

[tdidymas]

We're done here. Nothing I say will make any sense to you at all, since you obviously follow the Cessationist paradigm. SO Go ahead and believe that God had nothing to do with any of it, "Tongues" are delusional, and I just had a "Personality change" if that lights your fire.

Actually, what you say makes lots of sense to me, since I was P/C for 20 years and have plenty of experience with it. And you can hang the cessationist label on me if you want, but it depends on your definition of the term. Regardless, in the day when all things are revealed, we'll certainly find out the truth of the matter. Meanwhile, I'm sticking to my guns because I've yet to see any valid reasoning or proof that modern tongues is Biblical.
TD

 

[JLB]

Meanwhile, I'm sticking to my guns because I've yet to see any valid reasoning or proof that modern tongues is Biblical.

I haven’t seen any biblical proof from you about this.

Why would Jesus institute receiving the Holy Spirit, in which Peter and John went and ministered to people to receive the Holy Spirit, as well as He sent Paul to preach and lay hands on people to receive the Holy Spirit, but not today it has somehow gone away?

Why is it for the Church in the first century, but somehow not for the Church today.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense.


Here’s my question to you: Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

Yet I could say the same about you, since what you claim here about "modern miraculous tongue-speaking" is your presuppositions. And IMO you are also wrong by assuming that interpretation doesn't mean translation. There has to be an actual message spoken in order for there to be an interpretation of it. And besides that your assertion "it MUST be accompanied by the supernatural gift of interpretation" is not the main point or objection I'm making, so who is not listening?
TD

TD,

I was once a cessationist like you - I was a Baptist cessationist. Then the Lord opened my eyes to the Scriptures and the full range of the gifts of the Spirit, including speaking in tongues and using the gift of interpretation (not translation). I have been blessed by the ministry of these gifts, although I must say tongues, interpretation and prophecy have not been my primary gift.

Eulogia,
Oz

 

[tdidymas]

I haven’t seen any biblical proof from you about this.

Why would Jesus institute receiving the Holy Spirit, in which Peter and John went and ministered to people to receive the Holy Spirit, as well as He sent Paul to preach and lay hands on people to receive the Holy Spirit, but not today it has somehow gone away?

Why is it for the Church in the first century, but somehow not for the Church today.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense.


Here’s my question to you: Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?



JLB

Heb. 2:4 "God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will."

In this statement, the writer of Hebrews is excluding himself from those who performed signs and wonders, since he wrote "God also testifying with them." Therefore, since a very prominent person in the 1st century church did not have any of those miraculous gifts, it is quite unreasonable to think those gifts ought to be common in the church today, especially since NONE of the early church fathers (Antenicene) exercised any of them.

Eph. 2:20 "[God's household] having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone."

After the foundation is laid, there is no other foundation to be laid, and therefore since the apostles and prophets and Christ are the foundation, there are no more apostles, no more prophets, and no more revelations to be had. The NT is completed, and has been complete for 2000 years. This is what we have for evaluating, judging, and correcting everything in the worldwide church.

The gospel preached in the first century was authenticated by the signs and miracles that the apostles performed, and some of those closely associated with them, as Heb. 2:4 explicitly states. And since the NT is complete and well-established as the Christian authority, there is no need for signs and wonders. The exception is in the great tribulation era when God performs signs to oppose the false signs of the beast and false prophet, in which God will prove that mankind is hopelessly lost in his sinful nature and wicked attitude toward God's will.

It's not saying that God doesn't ever perform miracles by Himself, as He sometimes heals people supernaturally in response to prayer. But most of the time He uses natural means and doctors. But in my observation, no one has those gifts specified in 1 Cor. wherein God has delegated miraculous power to certain people. Essentially it means that modern tongues is a natural phenomenon, and not a supernatural gift of the Spirit. It means that whoever thinks that he speaks in tongues like they did in Acts 2 or 1 Cor. 14, that person is deceived, IMO. At best what the P/Cs have is theatrics.

So what you call "nonsense," I call correct understanding of what scripture says. If you want to prove me wrong, I invite you to do so, but so far you haven't been successful. I thought I might see some real exegesis of scripture and valid reasoning, but so far all I've seen is proof texts with a biased interpretation based on P/C dogmas.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

TD,

I was once a cessationist like you - I was a Baptist cessationist. Then the Lord opened my eyes to the Scriptures and the full range of the gifts of the Spirit, including speaking in tongues and using the gift of interpretation (not translation). I have been blessed by the ministry of these gifts, although I must say tongues, interpretation and prophecy have not been my primary gift.

Eulogia,
Oz

Can you describe in detail what you mean by interpretation? How does it come to you? What is a typical content? Please be specific.
TD

 

[JLB]

Heb. 2:4 "God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will."

In this statement, the writer of Hebrews is excluding himself from those who performed signs and wonders, since he wrote "God also testifying with them."

Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? Hebrews 2:1-4


The “them” in your version refers to “those“ who heard the Lord.

• how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit,

God is the One who was bearing witness to the message of Christ, with signs and wonders and various gifts of the Spirit, which was confirmed by those who heard Him.

Next time please show context.

Ths further confirms your lack of biblical proof.



Why would Jesus institute receiving the Holy Spirit, in which Peter and John went and ministered to people to receive the Holy Spirit, as well as He sent Paul to preach and lay hands on people to receive the Holy Spirit, but not today it has somehow gone away?

Why is it for the Church in the first century, but somehow not for the Church today.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense.


Here’s my question to you: Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?







JLB

 

[tdidymas]

Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? Hebrews 2:1-4


The “them” in your version refers to “those“ who heard the Lord.

• how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit,

God is the One who was bearing witness to the message of Christ, with signs and wonders and various gifts of the Spirit, which was confirmed by those who heard Him.

Next time please show context.

Ths further confirms your lack of biblical proof.

The same people who heard Christ in person were those people who performed signs and wonders. The writer of Hebrews is still excluding himself from that group. And if such a prominent member of the church did not perform them, then it is unreasonable to think it would be common today as P/Cs claim.

Why would Jesus institute receiving the Holy Spirit, in which Peter and John went and ministered to people to receive the Holy Spirit, as well as He sent Paul to preach and lay hands on people to receive the Holy Spirit, but not today it has somehow gone away?

Why is it for the Church in the first century, but somehow not for the Church today.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense.

I answered this already, but I guess you don't get the point. From my POV, you think it's nonsense because you don't understand what scripture actually says about the subject. But this is where our paths diverge.

Here’s my question to you: Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?
JLB

What exactly is your agenda about this question? Are you claiming that because I don't believe your P/C dogma about tongues that I don't have the Spirit? Is this what you are driving at?
TD

 

[JLB]

The same people who heard Christ in person were those people who performed signs and wonders.

So your saying every person who heard Christ in person did signs and wonder and miracles?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I answered this already, but I guess you don't get the point. From my POV, you think it's nonsense because you don't understand what scripture actually says about the subject. But this is where our paths diverge.

No actually I understand what the scriptures say about this subject and have listed the biblical evidence.


Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?



JLB

 

[tdidymas]

So your saying every person who heard Christ in person did signs and wonder and miracles?

JLB

No, I didn't say that, and neither does the text. Interesting that you would think that, as P/C dogma says miracles ought to be common, and that every Christian ought to be doing it.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

No actually I understand what the scriptures say about this subject and have listed the biblical evidence.

Actually, I refuted your interpretation by explaining what it means in context, but you don't seem to want to answer me on those things. In addition, if tongues and miracles were so prolific as you claim, then why did NONE of the antenicene fathers do any such thing? There is certainly something wrong with the picture that P/C dogma paints.

Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?
JLB

And why do you keep asking this same question? It's pretty obvious that P/C dogma is your agenda here, since I adequately answered this question days ago.
TD

 

[OzSpen]

No, I didn't say that, and neither does the text. Interesting that you would think that, as P/C dogma says miracles ought to be common, and that every Christian ought to be doing it.
TD

TD,

Would you please provide the evidence (with examples) of Pentecostal/Charismatic dogma that states miracles ought to be common and that every Christian should be doing them?

Oz

 

[JLB]

Actually, I refuted your interpretation by explaining what it means in context, but you don't seem to want to answer me on those things. In addition, if tongues and miracles were so prolific as you claim, then why did NONE of the antenicene fathers do any such thing? There is certainly something wrong with the picture that P/C dogma paints

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
Hebrews 2:3-4

I guess now that you see that "those" refers to those who heard and confirmed what the Lord spoke about salvation rather than those who did miracles and signs which totally refutes your erroneous interpretation of the passage and your theory.

Which is why you're trying to change the subject.