Hopeful,
#1 and #3 are not the same thing because in #1 there was not the need for the extra gift of interpretation.
Oz
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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'Speaking in Tongues', true vs false.
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Hopeful,
#1 and #3 are not the same thing because in #1 there was not the need for the extra gift of interpretation.
Oz
Sometimes there is communication between the Spirit within us and God for our own edification, and sometimes the Spirit within us speaks for the edification of an entire church...and needs an interpreter.
But it is the same Spirit.
The interpretation of the utterance is indeed another gift.
Bob Carabbio
Member
SO then Paul LIED in Ephesians 4 when he said that:
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
SO the question to YOU is, are we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
I rather doubt it. So the need for the Charismatic ministries obviously is still very needful in the Visible church.
Absolutely not, and far from it.
The five fold ministry is there to bring the body of Christ to full stature sonship.
What is so intriguing with people who promote the Cessationism narrative is, they never say Pastor’s or Teacher's or Evangelist’s have gone away, just Apostles and Prophets.
What hypocrisy.
JLB
As long as the "Charismatic ministries" propagate the false tongues and pretend miracles, we won't get to unity, because the agenda is not the same as the bulk of the universal church. The apostles and prophets up to the 1st Century is what Paul is talking about in Eph. 4:11, since he says they are the foundation of the church along with Christ (2:20). We cannot keep laying the foundation that was already laid, which is fully described in the NT. Therefore claiming there are still apostles and prophets laying a foundation is very problematic. However, evangelists, pastors, and teachers are still in operation today, which are the offices that build up the body. Just because God speaks occasionally to individuals doesn't make that person a prophet. But if God spoke to me that modern tongues wasn't of Him, and I called myself a prophet, would you believe me? Yet, prophets in the Charismatic churches are a dime a dozen, and I've yet to see one of their prophecies come to pass, which makes them false. Just because someone can make you feel good with great swelling words, doesn't make them a prophet.
Incidentally, I've observed that gossip is an addiction among Charismatics.
TD
Bob Carabbio
Member
SO what do you think the "AGENDA" of the "Bulk of the universal Church" is???As long as the "Charismatic ministries" propagate the false tongues and pretend miracles, we won't get to unity, because the agenda is not the same as the bulk of the universal church. The apostles and prophets up to the 1st Century is what Paul is talking about in Eph. 4:11, since he says they are the foundation of the church along with Christ (2:20). We cannot keep laying the foundation that was already laid, which is fully described in the NT. Therefore claiming there are still apostles and prophets laying a foundation is very problematic. However, evangelists, pastors, and teachers are still in operation today, which are the offices that build up the body. Just because God speaks occasionally to individuals doesn't make that person a prophet. But if God spoke to me that modern tongues wasn't of Him, and I called myself a prophet, would you believe me? Yet, prophets in the Charismatic churches are a dime a dozen, and I've yet to see one of their prophecies come to pass, which makes them false. Just because someone can make you feel good with great swelling words, doesn't make them a prophet.
Incidentally, I've observed that gossip is an addiction among Charismatics.
TD
As long as the "Charismatic ministries" propagate the false tongues and pretend miracles, we won't get to unity, because the agenda is not the same as the bulk of the universal church. The apostles and prophets up to the 1st Century is what Paul is talking about in Eph. 4:11, since he says they are the foundation of the church along with Christ (2:20). We cannot keep laying the foundation that was already laid, which is fully described in the NT. Therefore claiming there are still apostles and prophets laying a foundation is very problematic.
TD
TD,
So, what was Jesus promising when he made this statement: 'Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father' (John 14:12 NIV).
Did he mean, 'Whoever believes in me up until the NT is complete'?
Oz
Has every Christian whoever lived in history done greater things than Jesus did? Obviously not, therefore, "whoever" doesn't refer to all believers. So, some of the apostles fulfilled this prophecy. And just because you can quote a prooftext, doesn't automatically mean it applies to you or means what you want it to mean.
Do you think that speaking in modern tongues (which I say is a false sign) is the works that Jesus did, and even greater? If you think that, then IMO your agenda is wrong as well as your interpretation of scripture. It's not right to use whatever experience you like as a basis for judging scripture and drawing conclusions.
Rather, the scripture should be judging us and our experiences. How else can we keep from being deceived? Like I said before, precedent is a correct hermeneutic, and so in Acts 2 where tongues is clearly described as miraculous speaking of a known language, it is proper to assume that everywhere else in Acts and 1 Cor. it's the same.
TD
Bob Carabbio
Member
It's certainly not to have everyone speaking gibberish.
TD
SO Only a "Standard Cessationist agenda" then. About what I expected.
Has every Christian whoever lived in history done greater things than Jesus did? Obviously not, therefore, "whoever" doesn't refer to all believers. So, some of the apostles fulfilled this prophecy. And just because you can quote a prooftext, doesn't automatically mean it applies to you or means what you want it to mean.
Do you think that speaking in modern tongues (which I say is a false sign) is the works that Jesus did, and even greater? If you think that, then IMO your agenda is wrong as well as your interpretation of scripture. It's not right to use whatever experience you like as a basis for judging scripture and drawing conclusions.
Rather, the scripture should be judging us and our experiences. How else can we keep from being deceived? Like I said before, precedent is a correct hermeneutic, and so in Acts 2 where tongues is clearly described as miraculous speaking of a known language, it is proper to assume that everywhere else in Acts and 1 Cor. it's the same.
TD
TD,
It's amazing, beyond belief, astonishing, astounding, surprising, bewildering, stunning, staggering, shocking, startling, stupefying, breathtaking, perplexing, confounding, dismaying, disconcerting, shattering, awesome, awe-inspiring, sensational, remarkable, spectacular, stupendous, phenomenal, prodigious, extraordinary, incredible, and unbelievable to what you have done to make John 14:12 (NIV) mean what it does not state.
Yours is a classic example of fallacious reasoning.
Oz
It's certainly not to have everyone speaking gibberish.
TD
TD,
You continue with your flaming language. Please quit it. It does not enhance reasonable, godly communication.
Oz
TD,
You are twisting Scripture again. Do you understand the meaning of the plural, 'you', in the statement, ' Very truly I tell you, whoever (singular) believes in me will do the works I have been doing'. 'Whoever' is the translation of ὁ πιστεύων....
'ho pisteuōn' The latter clause in John 3:16 is: ' ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον = that all the believing ones (who believe) in him may not perish but have eternal life.
Therefore, Jesus' teaching is that those who believe in Him will do his works. Please remember that miracles were only a fraction of his works. Take a read of the Sermon on the Mount - Matt 5-7.
In the same way that salvation is available to all who will believe (whoever), those who do the works of Jesus will experience even 'greater works'. We in the Western world don't see the miracles like missionaries do in third world countries. Recently, I met retired missionaries from Peru and they told me how often they had to be engaged in exorcisms in this spiritist culture. Casting out demons was a semi-regular occurrence for people who came to Christ.
Casting the 'gift of tongues' into the 'gibberish' garbage bin is not only offensive but contrary to the spirit of Christ.
I remind all of us that the wheat and the tares grow together until harvest. The early church - after the death of the original apostles - was infiltrated by the heresy of Gnosticism. The early church fathers had to address this error. Read the exposition of Irenaeus, Against Heresies. Then came Arian heresy promoted by Arius.
Oz
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I'm a realist, and since "greater" things have happened rarely in 2000 years, it doesn't mean what you want it to. But do you think you've done greater things?
TD
Sorry for the sarcasm if that offends you. However, I also detect sarcasm from some of you guys. I spent a lot of time and effort exegeting the scripture for you people, and refuting your interpretation, but it gets ignored, and it ends in people just spewing opinions. When a sarcastic question is asked, I admit I'm tempted to reply with a sarcastic answer. Perhaps we can be a bit more civil to each other. I really would rather be discussing the Bible and its meaning, but I also want to make sure the abuses and deceptions of Charismatics be voiced. I've challenged them several times to produce proof that modern tongues is miraculous, but no takers, and I suspect they know it's not. Opinions and theories just don't cut the mustard.
TD
I'm not a cessationist, so if you are trying to convince me that some missionaries have seen miracles and activity of spiritual power, you're preaching to the choir. But that is a far cry from the exceptional miracles that were performed by the apostles. So in that regard, the prophecy of Christ was fulfilled by them.
By "fraction" of His works, do you mean something like 30%? John wrote that Jesus did so many miracles that not even all the books of the world could contain them. Ok, so one of the "greater works" is the conversion of large crowds, like 3000 in Acts 2, and some evangelists today also draw large crowds.
But didn't you bring up this verse in reference to tongues, apostles, and prophets, implying the performance of miracles? Are you now changing your tune? I've yet to see any progress toward proving that modern tongues is miraculous, so as far as I'm concerned, it's no spiritual gift. I've even yet to read anyone explain how they are edified by it (according to how edification is described in scripture). So to me it's merely gibberish, and that word is only offensive to those who have a vested interest in believing it's spiritual. The anger displayed by certain people is an indicator that a sacred cow is afoot.
So what's your point about bringing up heresies? It sounds like you're trying to tell me to tolerate it.
TD
Bob Carabbio
Member
And, of course personal Testimonies (like my own), naturally will be dismissed as "Anecdotal fantasies", or discarded as , delusional foolishness. You should read what Charles Parham (the "Father" of Pentecostalism) had to say about the Azuza Street meetings.Sorry for the sarcasm if that offends you. However, I also detect sarcasm from some of you guys. I spent a lot of time and effort exegeting the scripture for you people, and refuting your interpretation, but it gets ignored, and it ends in people just spewing opinions. When a sarcastic question is asked, I admit I'm tempted to reply with a sarcastic answer. Perhaps we can be a bit more civil to each other. I really would rather be discussing the Bible and its meaning, but I also want to make sure the abuses and deceptions of Charismatics be voiced. I've challenged them several times to produce proof that modern tongues is miraculous, but no takers, and I suspect they know it's not. Opinions and theories just don't cut the mustard.
TD
I'm a realist, and since "greater" things have happened rarely in 2000 years, it doesn't mean what you want it to. But do you think you've done greater things?
TD
TD,
Have you followed Jesus in these requirements of the things He did and the 'greater' things we can do?
31 ‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 ‘Then the King will say to those on his right, “Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was ill and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.”
37 ‘Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison and go to visit you?”
40 ‘The King will reply, “Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.”
41 ‘Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was ill and in prison and you did not look after me.”
44 ‘They also will answer, “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or ill or in prison, and did not help you?”
45 ‘He will reply, “Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.”
46 ‘Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life’ (Matt 25:31-46 NIV).
Have you done all of these things so that on judgment day you'll hear the words from the Master: 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world'?
TD, you are on the run away from a biblical understanding of 'greater things'.
Oz
Interesting that you judge me without even meeting me face to face. How about "judge not lest ye be judged"? But trying to make this about me and my relationship with God is an evasion of the OP issue, and called "derailing the thread." And since you do this, I take it you can't meet any of my challenges, which confirms my conviction that modern tongues is a false sign.
Incidentally, you think this scripture passage speaks of greater things than Jesus did? So you don't think Jesus did those things?
TD