'Speaking in Tongues', true vs false.

[daninthelionsden]

Amen, my brother.

This is why I speak in tongues only when alone and even then, only when my spirit is so distraught I no longer have the words left in me to pray. When I no longer know how to deal with the world, I let my spirit call out and ask the Lord to hear my spirit in anguish so that I communicate that which I find indescribable and that which I find too painful.

 

[Boaz]

This is why I speak in tongues only when alone and even then, only when my spirit is so distraught I no longer have the words left in me to pray. When I no longer know how to deal with the world, I let my spirit call out and ask the Lord to hear my spirit in anguish so that I communicate that which I find indescribable and that which I find too painful.

That is a good use of tongues if you use them and I am certainly not finding fault with it or negating your benefit. Been there before myself. Just a side note, a person can do the same thing making no sounds, just sitting broken before the Lord. He knows it all, the things you cannot find the words to express and it is the same thing as taking it to Him in prayer. He knows our thoughts and anguish better than we do. Sometimes all I can say is "Father help."

 

[daninthelionsden]

That is a good use of tongues if you use them and I am certainly not finding fault with it or negating your benefit. Been there before myself. Just a side note, a person can do the same thing making no sounds, just sitting broken before the Lord. He knows it all, the things you cannot find the words to express and it is the same thing as taking it to Him in prayer. He knows our thoughts and anguish better than we do. Sometimes all I can say is "Father help."

Yes, I call out "Father" often.

 

[Butch5]

We find that the scripture shows us that it did occur, but how can a Christian tell if 'Speaking in Tongues' is being given by the Holy Spirit or it has come by a false spirit. Just because a person starts to mutter, mumble or shout unknown 'words' doesn't necessarily mean that they are being given them by the Holy Spirit. People with dementia, or drunks and the insane mumble and shout unknown words, are they being given spiritual gifts of speaking in tongues. Of course not, so how can one tell if the source is from the Holy Spirit, or from another origin.

There are many references to speaking in tongues in the Bible, and we find the most about tongues are Acts 2 and I Corinthians 12-14. Now, you have to understand that at the time there were Jews and non-Jews who came to Jerusalem and from nearby regions who spoke another languages. To communicate with others with different languages, the early Christians needed to have been given a gift so they could understand the Gospel, and the scripture clearly shows that happening. There are many times being able to speak to others in their own tongue or language was very important as we see in the instance when Paul addressed the Jews to give them a understanding of who he was.

Acts 22
1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.
2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

Now in Acts 2 when the Apostles speak in tongues it makes if very clear why and what they were speaking.

Acts 2
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

The key part here is there were coming to Jerusalem, 'Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.' We clearly see the purpose and the actual use of speaking in tongues, it was not just babbling or muttering of foolish nonsense, it had a specific purpose and directed for the understanding of those from other languages and lands, as they heard 'speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.'

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

So speaking nonsensical words and utterances with no one to understand or for no practical reason, is it spiritually the same as the speaking in tongues given to the apostles and the early church.

No, it's not. The gift of speaking in tongues was given to the early church as a sign to the Jews. Isaiah spoke of Jesus.

18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. (Isa. 8:18 KJV)

He also said,

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.1
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
(Isa. 28:11-12 KJV)

In context "this people" is Israel. Paul also said that tongues would cease. Also the early Christians make mention of a remnant of the gifts being around after the apostles died. It seems they were waning even then.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

The problem in society today is people speak in tongues being falsely lead by evil forces. Demons try to mimic the Holy spirit, we will know if we have the Spirit by the fruits. Its good the bible says that because then it avoids confusion.

 

[tdidymas]

The problem in society today is people speak in tongues being falsely lead by evil forces. Demons try to mimic the Holy spirit, we will know if we have the Spirit by the fruits. Its good the bible says that because then it avoids confusion.

I definitely agree with you about the fruit of the Spirit and how the Bible makes that the test. However, I believe the vast majority of what is called tongues today is a human phenomenon (based on my research). I've no doubt that evil spirits sometimes can and will counterfeit that spiritual gift. But my point is that most of modern day tongues is not the same tongues of the NT. The sad part is all those deceived into thinking it's the same gift of the Spirit.
TD

 

[OzSpen]

This is why I speak in tongues only when alone and even then, only when my spirit is so distraught I no longer have the words left in me to pray. When I no longer know how to deal with the world, I let my spirit call out and ask the Lord to hear my spirit in anguish so that I communicate that which I find indescribable and that which I find too painful.

Dan,

The Scripture describes 3 uses of tongues:

1. What happened on the Day of Pentecost, which fulfilled Joel's prophecy: 'How is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language? ' (Acts 2:8 ESV)
2. The private prayer language which you seem to affirm in your life: 'The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy (1 Cor 14:4-5 ESV).
3. What should happen in the church gathering, no matter how large or small?

if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? 7 If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? 8 And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? 9 So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. 10 There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, 11 but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. 12 So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. 16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider[b] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you (1 Cor 14:6-18 ESV).

For edification in the church gathering, tongues MUST be accompanied by the gift of interpretation (note 1 Cor 14:11 ESV).

However, I see 2 trends in the local Pentecostal church services. There is mass speaking in tongues with no interpretation. Some are moving away from tongues' speaking to accommodate people from other denominations who don't speak in tongues. I'm so concerned with this distortion of Scripture that I've written a few articles on it:

• Is the spiritual gift of tongues ‘gibberish’?
• The fake and the genuine mixed in some churches: A dangerous concoction!
• Christianity in free fall: the Toronto blessing
• I Corinthians 14:29, “weigh carefully”

Oz

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

We find that the scripture shows us that it did occur, but how can a Christian tell if 'Speaking in Tongues' is being given by the Holy Spirit or it has come by a false spirit. Just because a person starts to mutter, mumble or shout unknown 'words' doesn't necessarily mean that they are being given them by the Holy Spirit. People with dementia, or drunks and the insane mumble and shout unknown words, are they being given spiritual gifts of speaking in tongues. Of course not, so how can one tell if the source is from the Holy Spirit, or from another origin.

There are many references to speaking in tongues in the Bible, and we find the most about tongues are Acts 2 and I Corinthians 12-14. Now, you have to understand that at the time there were Jews and non-Jews who came to Jerusalem and from nearby regions who spoke another languages. To communicate with others with different languages, the early Christians needed to have been given a gift so they could understand the Gospel, and the scripture clearly shows that happening. There are many times being able to speak to others in their own tongue or language was very important as we see in the instance when Paul addressed the Jews to give them a understanding of who he was.

Acts 22
1 Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defence which I make now unto you.
2 (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.

Now in Acts 2 when the Apostles speak in tongues it makes if very clear why and what they were speaking.

Acts 2
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

The key part here is there were coming to Jerusalem, 'Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.' We clearly see the purpose and the actual use of speaking in tongues, it was not just babbling or muttering of foolish nonsense, it had a specific purpose and directed for the understanding of those from other languages and lands, as they heard 'speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.'

6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

So speaking nonsensical words and utterances with no one to understand or for no practical reason, is it spiritually the same as the speaking in tongues given to the apostles and the early church.

--speaking in tongues and other miraculous signs have ceased as Paul said they would, Cor 13; Eph 4. They were for a specific time and purpose (bring about the NT and confirmation of it) which occurred by the end of the first century.

--tongues that were miraculously spoken were known earthly languages. The Apostles were the first ambassadors assigned to take the gospel to the world thereby would have a need to communicate the gospel to unbelievers in languages the Apostles did not know. Hence the Apostles were given miraculous ability to speak in a earthly languages other than the language wherein they were born. Speaking the gospel in a language the hearer could not understand would be unproductive in spreading salvation, it would be like speaking to the air, if the hearer could not understand the speaker, the speaker would be as a barbarian to hearer, 1 Cor 14.

 

[OzSpen]

--speaking in tongues and other miraculous signs have ceased as Paul said they would, Cor 13; Eph 4. They were for a specific time and purpose (bring about the NT and confirmation of it) which occurred by the end of the first century.

--tongues that were miraculously spoken were known earthly languages. The Apostles were the first ambassadors assigned to take the gospel to the world thereby would have a need to communicate the gospel to unbelievers in languages the Apostles did not know. Hence the Apostles were given miraculous ability to speak in a earthly languages other than the language wherein they were born. Speaking the gospel in a language the hearer could not understand would be unproductive in spreading salvation, it would be like speaking to the air, if the hearer could not understand the speaker, the speaker would be as a barbarian to hearer, 1 Cor 14.

Ernest,

Would you please provide your exegesis of the specific verses in 1 Cor 13 (ESV) and Eph 4 (ESV) that demonstrate these miraculous gifts have ceased?

Oz

 

[JLB]

So speaking nonsensical words and utterances with no one to understand or for no practical reason, is it spiritually the same as the speaking in tongues given to the apostles and the early church.

Please understand that there is “speaking” in tongues with the
“interpretation“ of tongues in a church service for a corporate body.

Then there is praying in tongues for personal edification, and private devotion.


Now keep in mind it’s all “speaking” in tongues because a person is speaking words, but they is a difference in the Holy Spirit gift of “speaking” in tongues with interpretation of tongues for the edification of a corporate body in a church service.


Then there is “praying” in tongues for your prayer time and devotion which may include singing in the Spirit (tongues) as well.


So with that being said Paul was instructing the Church at Corinth about the use of the Holy Spirit gift of tongues and “in Church” it needs to be accomplished with the companion gift of interpretation of tongues, or else no one will understand what is being said.



Obviously we can control both the praying in tongues for it is our spirit that is praying, and it’s up to us to utilize this ability the Spirit gives each born again Christian who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the speaking in tongues in Church for the edification of the Church body.

I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue. 1 Corinthians 14:18-19


Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification. 1 Corinthians 14:1-5

Paul is referring to the gift of tongues and interpretation as well as prophecy for a Church service.


JLB

 

[JLB]

speaking in tongues and other miraculous signs have ceased as Paul said they would, Cor 13; Eph

There is nothing in the entire Bible let alone 1 Corinthians 13 or Ephesians which is why you didn’t actually post a scripture but only a vague reference.

May God forgive you for promoting such a foolish false teaching.


They certainly have not ceased. That’s your denominational teaching blocking you from the wonderful baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the gifts that come with that gift which is called
The Promise of the Father.

This promise is for all God’s children to edify each other as well as ourselves.


Truly, Truly sad that some denominations actually teach such utter and complete foolishness.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is why I speak in tongues only when alone and even then, only when my spirit is so distraught I no longer have the words left in me to pray. When I no longer know how to deal with the world, I let my spirit call out and ask the Lord to hear my spirit in anguish so that I communicate that which I find indescribable and that which I find too painful.

Amen brother.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

There is nothing in the entire Bible let alone 1 Corinthians 13 or Ephesians which is why you didn’t actually post a scripture but only a vague reference.

May God forgive you for promoting such a foolish false teaching.


They certainly have not ceased. That’s your denominational teaching blocking you from the wonderful baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the gifts that come with that gift which is called
The Promise of the Father.

This promise is for all God’s children to edify each other as well as ourselves.


Truly, Truly sad that some denominations actually teach such utter and complete foolishness.


JLB

No one can speak in tongues today. Tongue speaking in the Bible was not ecstatic utterances that cannot be understand but were known earthly languages. In Acts 2 the Apostles spoke in know earthly tongues and no reason at all to think the tongues Paul speaks about in 1 Cor 14 are anything than known earthly languages. In verses as 1 Cor 14:2,4 the word "unknown" as used in the KJV is not in the original language therefore should not even be in the verses. Surely people are not trying to create a teaching on a word that's not in the original language.

In the context of 1 Cor 14 Paul is clearly talking about known tongues, earthly languages that are understood.

--" And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. "

Paul is speaking about known earthly languages..."many kinds of voices in the world"

" except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?" If they do not produce a distinct tone they are useless, Likewise if no one can understand what is being said it is useless. Intelligent communication is needed when playing an instrument and speaking. One cannot just play notes at random.
No edification accomplished.

" For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? " The watchman would blow the trumpet to warn of a coming attack to warn the people as to what they should do. But if he blows something that is not understood, not a distinct sound, it would cause mass confusion. Likewise speaking in "ecstatic utterances" would not be know but cause confusion. No edification accomplished.

" except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. " Use a language that men can understand, a distinct language else you are just speaking to the air. Language that does not provide communication and cannot transmit something understandable is useless.

" Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. " What purpose is there in speaking in a tongue if no one can understand it? NONE. No edification can be had when people don't know what is being said.


======================

1 Cor 13:8-10
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The phrase 'that which is perfect" is NOT talking about Christ. The word "perfect" here does not mean sinless perfection but means to be whole or complete. At that time the NT was still 'under construction' and not yet completed. Signs were being used to bring about the perfect/completed/whole NT.

"when" denotes a particular time when these signs would cease.
"that which is perfect" refers to the completed NT, lacking nothing. Paul is contrasting what will be "perfect" to what is now 'in part', what is now lacking.
Christ was never in part or lacking so the verse is not about Christ. Since the 'in part' in the incomplete NT the perfect must be the whole NT. If a part is a slice of apple pie then the perfect must be the whole apple pie. The completion of the NT came by the end of the first century hence those signs would then begin to cease for they served their purpose in bring about the perfect, completed NT and no longer needed.

Verse 11 " When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." Paul is comparing these signs to childish things as a pacifier. These signs were for the earlier infant church a pacifier. But when the church has access to the perfect/completed NT, that is, becomes "a man" the pacifier (signs) are no longer needed. Adults do not continue sucking on pacifiers.

verse 12 " For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. "
"for now" at that present time they did not have the perfect completed NT.
see through a cloudy mirror -meaning they did not have access to the full revelation of God's word.
"but then" then referring to when the NT would be competed (which occurred by the end of the 1st century)
"face to face" have a clear picture of the entire NT, entire revelation of the NT

The parallel passage of 1 Cor 13 is Eph 4:

verse 8 "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

These gifts would be for the perfecting of the saints, work of the ministry and edification, Eph 4:12.

How long will theses miraculous gifts last?

Eph 4:13 "Till we all come in the unity of the faith,

"till" is a time limiting word.
"unity" means oneness, wholeness contrast to what is 'in part', lacking.
"the faith" does NOT refer to people's personal faith but about the system of faith (the "one faith" Eph 4:5) taught within the NT. As Paul is said to preach "the faith" Gal 1:23. Men were obedient to 'the faith" Acts 6:7.

These miraculous gifts, these pacifiers for the infant church would last TILL the church would be united in the whole completed NT.

The only foolishness on my part would be for me to believe the baseless claims made by these self-proclaimed miracle workers.

=============

Christ's church is not a man made denomination.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest,

Would you please provide your exegesis of the specific verses in 1 Cor 13 (ESV) and Eph 4 (ESV) that demonstrate these miraculous gifts have ceased?

Oz

Post #113

 

[JLB]

No one can speak in tongues today.

Brother, I love you and appreciate many of the things you post, but honestly you just don’t know what your talking about.


Please stop spreading such nonsense.


It’s truly offensive.



JLB

 

[OzSpen]

No one can speak in tongues today. Tongue speaking in the Bible was not ecstatic utterances that cannot be understand but were known earthly languages. In Acts 2 the Apostles spoke in know earthly tongues and no reason at all to think the tongues Paul speaks about in 1 Cor 14 are anything than known earthly languages. In verses as 1 Cor 14:2,4 the word "unknown" as used in the KJV is not in the original language therefore should not even be in the verses. Surely people are not trying to create a teaching on a word that's not in the original language.

In the context of 1 Cor 14 Paul is clearly talking about known tongues, earthly languages that are understood.

--" And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. "

Paul is speaking about known earthly languages..."many kinds of voices in the world"

" except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?" If they do not produce a distinct tone they are useless, Likewise if no one can understand what is being said it is useless. Intelligent communication is needed when playing an instrument and speaking. One cannot just play notes at random.
No edification accomplished.

" For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? " The watchman would blow the trumpet to warn of a coming attack to warn the people as to what they should do. But if he blows something that is not understood, not a distinct sound, it would cause mass confusion. Likewise speaking in "ecstatic utterances" would not be know but cause confusion. No edification accomplished.

" except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. " Use a language that men can understand, a distinct language else you are just speaking to the air. Language that does not provide communication and cannot transmit something understandable is useless.

" Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. " What purpose is there in speaking in a tongue if no one can understand it? NONE. No edification can be had when people don't know what is being said.


======================

1 Cor 13:8-10
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The phrase 'that which is perfect" is NOT talking about Christ. The word "perfect" here does not mean sinless perfection but means to be whole or complete. At that time the NT was still 'under construction' and not yet completed. Signs were being used to bring about the perfect/completed/whole NT.

"when" denotes a particular time when these signs would cease.
"that which is perfect" refers to the completed NT, lacking nothing. Paul is contrasting what will be "perfect" to what is now 'in part', what is now lacking.
Christ was never in part or lacking so the verse is not about Christ. Since the 'in part' in the incomplete NT the perfect must be the whole NT. If a part is a slice of apple pie then the perfect must be the whole apple pie. The completion of the NT came by the end of the first century hence those signs would then begin to cease for they served their purpose in bring about the perfect, completed NT and no longer needed.

Verse 11 " When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." Paul is comparing these signs to childish things as a pacifier. These signs were for the earlier infant church a pacifier. But when the church has access to the perfect/completed NT, that is, becomes "a man" the pacifier (signs) are no longer needed. Adults do not continue sucking on pacifiers.

verse 12 " For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. "
"for now" at that present time they did not have the perfect completed NT.
see through a cloudy mirror -meaning they did not have access to the full revelation of God's word.
"but then" then referring to when the NT would be competed (which occurred by the end of the 1st century)
"face to face" have a clear picture of the entire NT, entire revelation of the NT

The parallel passage of 1 Cor 13 is Eph 4:

verse 8 "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

These gifts would be for the perfecting of the saints, work of the ministry and edification, Eph 4:12.

How long will theses miraculous gifts last?

Eph 4:13 "Till we all come in the unity of the faith,

"till" is a time limiting word.
"unity" means oneness, wholeness contrast to what is 'in part', lacking.
"the faith" does NOT refer to people's personal faith but about the system of faith (the "one faith" Eph 4:5) taught within the NT. As Paul is said to preach "the faith" Gal 1:23. Men were obedient to 'the faith" Acts 6:7.

These miraculous gifts, these pacifiers for the infant church would last TILL the church would be united in the whole completed NT.

The only foolishness on my part would be for me to believe the baseless claims made by these self-proclaimed miracle workers.

=============

Christ's church is not a man made denomination.

Ernest,

If I accept your view of tongues being known earthly languages (as in Acts 2), then it makes this passage in 1 Cor 14 superfluous, redundant, unneeded:

13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. 16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue (1 Cor 14:13-19 ESV).​

Here, the gift of tongues in the church gathering requires the gift of interpretation. Otherwise, the person who comes into the church can't praise God with you. So the gift of tongues in 1 Cor 14 is not the same as the gift of tongues in Acts 2.

Oz

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest,

If I accept your view of tongues being known earthly languages (as in Acts 2), then it makes this passage in 1 Cor 14 superfluous, redundant, unneeded:

13 Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. 16 Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? 17 For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. 18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue (1 Cor 14:13-19 ESV).​

Here, the gift of tongues in the church gathering requires the gift of interpretation. Otherwise, the person who comes into the church can't praise God with you. So the gift of tongues in 1 Cor 14 is not the same as the gift of tongues in Acts 2.

Oz

The tongues of Acts 2 and 1 Cor 14 are the same, known earthly languages.
1 Cor 14:12 "Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church."
1 Cor 14:13 "Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret."
1 Cor 14:14 "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful."


A purpose of the gifts, as tongues, was to edify the church, v13. Per my last post, for edification to happen the hearer must understand what is being said else the tongue speaker is speaking to the air, is as a barbarian to the hearer and there is no edification taking place.

If the speaker is speaking in a language the hearer does not understand, then it should be interpreted so the hearers can understand and edification take place. If I was suddenly able to miraculously speak Chinese but my hearers do not understand Chinese then I (or someone else) should interpret what I am saying into a language the hearers can understand.

1 Cor 14:27 "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret."
1 Cor 14:28 "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."

If no one can interpret the language being spoken then the speaker is to keep silent. If the Chinese I am speaking cannot be interpreted by anyone then I would have to keep silent.

Those today who claim to speak in a tongue (ecstatic utterances) do not have interpreters but they do not keep silent.
1 Cor 14:23 those Corinthians thought their uncontrolled tongue speaking was great, but if the hearer did not understand Paul told the Corinthians they would appear as mad to the hearer. Thus were to keep silent if there is no interpreter.


"if there be no interpreter"-implying that the tongue-speakers were required to know ahead of time if an interpreter was present. This demands that tongue-speaking wasn"t a gift that "overwhelmed" one. Neither was it something that couldn"t be predicted. The tongue-speaker could speak in tongues whenever he wanted! The gift could be exercised at will. So don't let any so-called tongue-speaker today weasle out of "proving their gift", by the excuse that "they just don"t know when the Spirit is going to move them."

"let him keep silence in the church"-"Clearly, then, the tongue-speaker wasn"t "overwhelmed" by the Spirit. Not only was the prophet in control of himself (32), the tongue-speaker was too." (McGuiggan p. 184)

Remember this verse when someone says, "The Spirit is moving me and I can"t help myself." Notice also. In those whole discussion on spiritual gifts, nothing is said about the Corinthians "rolling on the floor, going into convulsions, fainting, passing out, yelling, jumping up and down, or clapping hands." Evidently, some Charismatic groups are prone to worse abuses in the assembly, than even the Corinthians!" Dunagan Commenatary. (my emp)

Those today claiming to do miraculous sign should be able to perform those signs at will anytime they desire under control. On occasions I asked them to perform, to exercise their gift but they refused, came up with all the excuses in the world. One guy claimed he could heal the sick and raise the dead. I offered to, at my expense, to come to the local hospital where I am and exercise his gift, to relieve the pain suffer and heartbreak but refused to, made up all excuses he could. He seemed to be able to exercise his gift when no one was around to see then make claims he had healed people.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Brother, I love you and appreciate many of the things you post, but honestly you just don’t know what your talking about.


Please stop spreading such nonsense.


It’s truly offensive.



JLB

See the end of my last post to OzSpen. I have give these fake miracles workers opportunity silence me and exercise their gift...a "put up or shut up" type proposition. They all 100% 'shut up'

 

[JLB]

The problem in society today is people speak in tongues being falsely lead by evil forces. Demons try to mimic the Holy spirit, we will know if we have the Spirit by the fruits. Its good the bible says that because then it avoids confusion.

If demons try to mimic the true Holy Spirit gift, then that obviously means the they are trying to counterfeit the true gift of tongues.


JLB

 

[JLB]

See the end of my last post to OzSpen. I have give these fake miracles workers opportunity silence me and exercise their gift...a "put up or shut up" type proposition. They all 100% 'shut up'

I exercise my gift of praying in tongues everyday.

It’s part of my prayer time.


Maybe you mean because you refuse the gift it must be false?


Like the Pharisees who blasphemed the Holy Spirit, calling the Spirit by which Jesus operated, Beelzebub, I suspect many are doing the same thing today.


Please don’t let your denominational teaching led you down the path of destruction.




JLB