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'Speaking in Tongues', true vs false.

TD,

7 Utterly amazed, they asked: ‘Aren’t all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,[b] 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs – we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!’ (Acts 2:7-11 NIV).​

You already are ridiculing me regarding tongues to speak to God. I would not provide you with further evidence for you to be sarcastic towards me.

Oz
I was not being sarcastic, nor was I intending to offend you. I think you only see sarcasm because you are looking through your agenda. God does not deceive people. He does not cause the apostles to speak random syllables, and then cause the crowd to hear something that the apostles aren't speaking. Miracles don't work that way, and if you think they do, you are deceived.

"Each of us hears them..." - i.e., they heard with their natural ears and understood with their natural minds what the apostles were speaking. v. 11: "we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." The apostles were speaking those languages. God does not deceive people by way of miraculous deception. They did not hear something different than what the apostles were speaking.

IMO it is a sad commentary on Christians who read the Bible with such a bias that they cannot see the obvious meaning in the text. I know what I'm talking about, because I've been there. It's easy to be deceived by someone with an agenda who is able to twist the meaning of the text with persuasive words. This is why there are so many denominations, because people are committed to their doctrinal agenda than they are to the plain meaning of the text.

The reason I say this is because I have had debates on this subject of "hearing miracle" in Acts 2 with glossolalists, and every time they go off in a huff, which reveals that they have an agenda other than understanding the plain meaning of the text. I'm serious about this because the truth is my passion.
TD:)
 
That's your opinion. It's not mine.
It's not just my opinion, because my agenda is to be harmonious with scripture. For example, Jesus healed people for 3 different reasons which the scripture testifies to each of these at different times:
1. To authenticate Him as the Messiah
2. To help and comfort His followers
3. To teach faith to people

And His other miracles are stated to have equivalent purposes at various times. Do you agree with this, or do you need references?

My point is that the nature of His miraculous acts did not change just because the stated purpose was different.
TD:)
 
It's not just my opinion, because my agenda is to be harmonious with scripture. For example, Jesus healed people for 3 different reasons which the scripture testifies to each of these at different times:
1. To authenticate Him as the Messiah
2. To help and comfort His followers
3. To teach faith to people

And His other miracles are stated to have equivalent purposes at various times. Do you agree with this, or do you need references?

My point is that the nature of His miraculous acts did not change just because the stated purpose was different.
TD:)

TD,

I also want my interpretations to be harmonious with Scripture. We differ on some of the details.

Until Jesus returns, that will happen because ...

Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely (1 Cor 3:12 NLT).​

No huff with me.

May you have a good one.
Oz
 
1 Corinthians 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

I have to correct myself as I now see by this verse that tongues are for a sign and possibly wonders, but only to those who do not believe if you read the full of 1 Corinthians 14:21-33.

Is it God or man that is exalted when the Holy Spirit speaks prophecy through another in an unknown tongue and gives another the interpretation.

You are right as God would not introduce a a necessary thing into our gatherings that would cause confusion, but the self righteous do. If there is no prophecy of edification, instruction or correction that speaks to us through the Holy Spirit then it is only man putting on a show as I have seen many times in a church I use to attend.

Yes, I agree all the gifts of the Holy Spirit are absolutely necessary within the workings of the church as they were when the church was established by the Apostles, even to day and everyday till Christ returns. What we disagree on is whether or not tongues are both for signs and wonders.
Yes it is just a disagreement and nothing wrong with that. The most important part of that discourse on tongues in 1Corinthians is "in love" in all things and you do that very well, thank you. Some people are button pushers and right fighters and I admit I get my buttons pushed way too easily.

My experience with the use of tongues in church services is only mine and it was abusive, and clanging of gongs and self serving. Sounds like you have found a place that has achieved a balance. Truthfully it makes no difference to me whether people speak in a tongue or not, whether they believe they are active today or not. No matter which it is not a Christain DOCTRINE, it is a gift, and not something we should all agree on. A gift is not the point of Christianity, but a benefit. The point is Christ. Who He is, what He did and is doing.
 
Reformed05,

Where in 1 Corinthians does it state that?

Oz
It isn't stated in those exact words. A reading of a book preface in a reliable study Bible might help. Author and date, background and setting etc. However 1 Corinthians itself tells us clearly what the purpose of this letter is. 1 Cor. 1: 11. "For it has been declared to me concerning you brethren, by those of Chole' s household, that there are contentions among you." Then Paul proceeds to address each of the problems and contentions that existed in that church, one of which was their use of tongues and to outline the true purpose of the gifts given to the church for it's edification.

In 1 Cor. 3: 1-3 it shows us the spiritual condition they were in. " And I brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?"

The bottom line of this whole chapter is what is most important is Christ crucified and that we do all things in love. There are many rhetorical questions, even sarcasm and intentional exaggerations for the purpose of making a point in this book. It is important to recognize these things instead of taking them as doctrine. The gifts aren't doctrine anyway.
Nothing I have said or quoted prove or disprove whether tongues are valid today. That wasn't my intention. I am only answering your question.
 
Reformed05,

Where in 1 Corinthians does it state that?

Oz
Sometimes we reach logical CONCLUSIONS by knowing who is speaking, to whom and why. 1Corinthians makes all that clear at the very beginning. There were divisions over many things in the Corinthian church and Paul was addressing them and making corrections. When he came to their incorrect use and understanding of the gifts, all of them, he specifically addressed their use of tongues from a particular viewpoint. He referred to the pagan culture around them, something they evidently had been participants in before they knew and accepted the Gospel. The pagans used unknown language (gibberish) to work themselves into an ecstatic state. It stands to reason that Paul was not speaking in a vacuum, but was addressing what he had seen or heard about regarding the activity in the church. Ergo, that is what was happening. Paul made it clear that their intention was to draw attention to themselves as being more spiritual than others. (I have witnessed this myself in some churches today.) Paul is not discussing the validity of tongues (plural, actual languages. There is no plural of a non language.) He is discussing how they were being used and should be used. He wasn't making a statement about whether or not they would be in use for all time. He was talking about what WAS being done in that particular church at that particular time. 1 Corinthians is not ABOUT us it is FOR us.

I am not using what I have said as an argument for or against. We have the liberty of individual thought to decide that question for ourselves. The tongues question is not a Christain DOCTRINE. It does not determine our salvation. The title of this thread is "------ true or false." I presented my OPINION and reasoning. And now we have arrived at a slightly different topic but I am merely answering your question. We must be careful to search out the actual SUBJECT of a passage or book of the Bible, and so be able to get it's purpose and meaning. Paul was addressing the misunderstandings and inappropriate behavior going on in a specific place and telling them the right way. And since he did that the right and true, both in action and motive are given to us. As far as tongues go the passages on tongues have been turned into a bitter and devisive contention in the church of today, exactly what Paul was condemning. As we so often do, WE MISSED THE POINT! Which is Christ crucified and whatever we do, do in love.
 
Reformed05
Would you say the bulk of your Christian experience was

This "bad tongues" period, which was emotional as you now view it

And a REFORMED period, which you like, and are now in?
 
"The passage on tongues have been turned into a bitter and divisive contention in the church of today"

By whom?
 
Reformed05
Would you say the bulk of your Christian experience was

This "bad tongues" period, which was emotional as you now view it

And a REFORMED period, which you like, and are now in?
AUTO. Not exactly sure what you are asking so if I got it wrong, let me know. I have been a Christian since 1983. The first 21 years were spent in free will Charismatic (meaning those who think all the gifts mentioned in 1Corinthians are active today) churches. In 2005 I began to turn in the direction of Reformed. I was in several different states/towns in that time so a few different churches. In some the displays of both prophecy and tongues was often bizarre and often left me cringing. Prophecy simply means speaking the word of God and is not necessarily revelatory but it was always used in my churches as predicting future events. But that is a whole other story.
The last church I attended was moderate and more disciplined in their approach. But it wasn't these things that caused me to begin the search that eventually led me to Reformation Theology. It was a search to find a church where they actually taught about God. That was the only way I could pin point my need to myself. I did not know exactly what it was that I was looking for.

One day my brother brought me a book that someone had given him. The name of the book was "Truths That Transform" by James Kennedy. He told me it would change my life to which I replied, "there is no such book." I was expecting it to be just another formula book like all the others that fill shelves in Christain book stores. A new formula for self help.

After only a couple of pages was able to articulate what had been missing. It was ABOUT God. Not what He can or will do for us, not about formulas to bend Him to our will, or how to be a better person etc. It was about God from beginning to end. I had never heard of Reformed Theology. Or the TULIP. I had never had any of that historical era of the Church mentioned, let alone discussed.
That began my quest. I followed up with mentioned resources and the resources mentioned in the resources and came to the place that it seemed right to me. I began also to get a much deeper look into Jesus's life, the crucifixion and resurrection. The term Grace began to mean so much more than its definition. As did the love of God. For the first time the words justification and propitiation were more than mere words I knew meaning of. I began to understand them, what they actually DO. The knowledge that Jesus died for me personally finally actually felt intensely personal.
It was somewhere in this process that the tongues and other sign gifts (which I explained in a previous post) and their activity that we see in churches today was suspect. I didn't throw them out off hand. First I had to try and find out WHY . Exactly what was the reason they wouldn't be a normal part of our gatherings today. I reached e conclusions that I have explained earlier but if you want me to reiterate let me know.
That is my story.
Reformed
 
At one time, I designated four types of Christians and their attitudes towards Tongues.

1. Charismatics who go overboard, thinking themselves superior to non-charismatic, even questioning the SALVATION of non-charismatic

2. Charismatics who don't go overboard, whether they are in a denomination like Assembly of God, or are scattered amid denominations not necessarily associated with tongues

3. Christians who do not speak in tongues themselves, but hold no position such as Cessationists who say tongues are invalid today.

4. Cessationists, who claim the gift CEASED at some point.


If tongues is divisive, it is so because of groups 1 and 4, who are by far much smaller in numbers than 2 and especially 3 - 3 is overwhelmingly the largest of the four groups.
 
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"The passage on tongues have been turned into a bitter and divisive contention in the church of today"

By whom?
People. You can see the devision in this thread. Some say yes, some say no. Some let it be and some must argue and argue, trying to convince everyone to see it their way.
 
At one time, I designated four types of Christians and their attitudes towards Tongues.

1. Charismatics who go overboard, thinking themselves superior to non-charismatic, even questioning the SALVATION of non-charismatic

2. Charismatics who don't go overboard, whether they are in a denomination like Assembly of God, or are scattered amid denominations not necessarily associated with tongues

3. Christians who do not speak in tongues themselves, but hold no position such as Cessationists who say tongues are invalid today.

4. Cessationists, who claim the gift CEASED at some point.


If tongues is decisive, it is so because of groups 1 and 4, who are by far much smaller in numbers than 2 and especially 3 - 3 is overwhelmingly the largest of the four groups.
Right. I don't think they are valid today but I could care less if someone does. I have given my reasoning for my way of believing on the subject of tongues, mainly because I was asked the question but I'm certainly not trying to change anyone's mind.
 
At one time, I designated four types of Christians and their attitudes towards Tongues.

1. Charismatics who go overboard, thinking themselves superior to non-charismatic, even questioning the SALVATION of non-charismatic

2. Charismatics who don't go overboard, whether they are in a denomination like Assembly of God, or are scattered amid denominations not necessarily associated with tongues

3. Christians who do not speak in tongues themselves, but hold no position such as Cessationists who say tongues are invalid today.

4. Cessationists, who claim the gift CEASED at some point.


If tongues is divisive, it is so because of groups 1 and 4, who are by far much smaller in numbers than 2 and especially 3 - 3 is overwhelmingly the largest of the four groups.
You can add a fifth category, one who practices tongues in private and believes others should too.
 
Yes it is just a disagreement and nothing wrong with that. The most important part of that discourse on tongues in 1Corinthians is "in love" in all things and you do that very well, thank you. Some people are button pushers and right fighters and I admit I get my buttons pushed way too easily.

My experience with the use of tongues in church services is only mine and it was abusive, and clanging of gongs and self serving. Sounds like you have found a place that has achieved a balance. Truthfully it makes no difference to me whether people speak in a tongue or not, whether they believe they are active today or not. No matter which it is not a Christain DOCTRINE, it is a gift, and not something we should all agree on. A gift is not the point of Christianity, but a benefit. The point is Christ. Who He is, what He did and is doing.

We all know the greatest commandment is love and within discussions we need to display that even if we do not agree with each other all the time. There are many topics we discuss that doesn't really cause division, but to know some things in part or somethings in the full context. The thing to do is to take all the scriptures given and study them as the full will always reveal the truth by the Holy Spirit who should be the one teaching us.

I don't have a home church anymore where I live, so I have no pulpit Pastor to teach me and have to totally rely on the Holy Spirit in whom I have always relied on to give me understanding of what I am reading and studying. I use very little websites and even then it is to find scriptures that I need for full context of what I am studying.

Am I always right or am I perfect, no, as I'm learning like everyone else and I will make mistakes, but also own them when I do. The Holy Spirit will always correct me either directly or working through some one else that has a greater knowledge then I do.

Tongues can be a very confusing study, especially to those who have never experienced them for themselves, but yet no matter what we think about speaking in tongues it has no affect on our salvation.

I like what you said here "A gift is not the point of Christianity, but a benefit. The point is Christ. Who He is, what He did and is doing." sister I say amen to that.
 
Each one has a view, each one has an opinion, each one has a scripture. There is no place for sarcasm or telling someone they are wrong. This thread is staring to head south. Please discuss in love towards one another and have some respect for what another believes even if you do not agree. This is a discussion, not a debate of who is right and who is wrong.

No need to respond to this.
 
Since this subject has been revived recently, I feel prompted to give some input into it. I have been studying this subject for a long time, since I used to fellowship with Pentecostals for about 20 years, and spoke modern glossolalia myself. I have have not heard every person's tongues-speaking, so I'm certainly not an expert, and certainly don't know if the true spiritual gift has been expressed in the world some place.

I'm certain that the glossolalia I spoke and all the glossolalia I have heard over my 20 years experience with Pentecostals is not the same thing as the Biblical tongues, and I will explain further. I have heard reports that tongues have been spoken that someone understood the language being spoken. However, I have doubts about such events, as people in the Charismatic camp often exaggerate events. It is often the proverbial fish story, and such stories often sound fishy.

Firstly, the way Biblical tongues was verified as miraculous is that there was someone who understood the language, as in Acts 2, or someone who could actually interpret the message as an intelligible communication as in 1 Cor. 14. Also, the Bible, as most historical literature, has historical precedents. IOW, since Acts 2 describes tongues in detail as a known spoken human language, it is reasonable to assume that all the tongues mentioned later is of the same kind, that is, known human languages.

There is no reason to assume that the tongues of 1 Cor. is different in nature than that of Acts 2. The only ones who assume that difference are those who have an agenda to believe it is different, IOW a presupposition. The context of 1 Cor. does not demand that we interpret the tongues in that context as different in nature than the tongues of Acts 2.

Especially since Peter said in Acts 10:46-47 that those in the house of Cornelius were given tongues as the apostles had. IOW, they were known human languages, and Peter was able to discern it. This is how it was verified that what those people spoke was a miraculous event, IOW a miraculous gift of the Holy Spirit. This was to prove to the apostles that the Holy Spirit had been given to the gentile believers, and so it was with the other events in which tongues was spoken.

This brings us to the point that modern day glossolalia is not a gift of the Holy Spirit, since it is not a miraculously gifted language. It cannot be verified as a miraculous language, since there has yet to be a translation of it. Many poke attempts at interpreting it, but such attempts are feeble attempts at mimicking what is believed to be the tongues-interpretation process.

The way that I know that modern day glossolalia is not a language is that expert linguists have analyzed many tongues speaking, and they all agree that there is not enough vocabulary to convey any intelligible meaning. Such glossolalia is often called nonsense, or "automatic speaking." It is of human origin, that is, it is a human phenomenon. We know this because Christians are not the only ones who do it. It is done by many of those in other religions, including Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Voodooism, Mormonism, and others. It is even done by people without any religious agenda.

Many of those glossolalias have been analyzed by the expert linguists. They agree that it is all the same nonsense speaking, so I don't believe that any of it is demonic in origin. There may be some isolated cases that are demonic in origin, but that is speculation, since the vast majority of it can be shown that anyone can do it, even fluently.

One other point I would like to make is that in my 20 years experience, I often heard Pentecostal leaders say that every Christian ought to speak in tongues. This in itself implies that they believe that anyone can do it. Of course, since Pentecostals believe it is from the Holy Spirit, that they claim only Christians can do it. But since we know for a fact that people in other religions can do it, it follows that anyone can do it, and therefore it is not a miraculous gift of the Holy Spirit. To claim that only the Pentecostal glossolalia is of God, and all others are counterfeit is merely an adherence to an agenda.

Let me say at this point that I am not trying to get tongues-speakers to stop. I'm merely saying to face reality of where it is coming from. Even the expert linguist I am studying materials at present, claims that this glossolalia has some religious value. IOW, if it makes you feel good, go ahead with it. Prayer makes me feel good, so I'll continue with it (as a comparison). I'm just saying that the more I study this phenomenon, the more I am convinced it is of human origin.

Just because someone gets some emotional value from speaking glossolalia doesn't prove it is of the Holy Spirit. If every tongues-speaker got some emotional value from it, such as a rapturous delight, or intense feeling of inspiration, every time they did it, then certainly that would be significant evidence to consider. But that is simply not the case. I have spoken to speakers of glossolalia that have said they get no emotional value from it whatsoever. I have asked "how does it edify you?" and the answer is usually "I have no idea, I just assume I'm edified because the Bible says it."

In my mind, if there is no sense of edification, or nothing that can be measured, then there is no edification. In my 44 years experience as a Christian, I have been edified many times, and have edified others many times. I'm pretty certain that edification includes knowledge, wisdom, faith in Christ, and the fruit of the Spirit. It appears to me that the only edification that modern glossolalia produces is the belief in modern glossolalia.

I'm sure that some will object to this statement, and that's ok, since everyone has an opinion about it. And it is obvious that this debate could continue for a long time, because when people have a vested interest in their opinion, they do not easily let it go or question the basis for it. It's the reason for so many denominations.
TD:)
Amen, my brother.
 
Amen, my brother.
One more thing I thought of, that I wish I had included in my previous post: the expert linguists call modern day glossolalia a "pseudolanguage". "Psuedo" of course means "false." So essentially a false language, because it sounds like a language, but actually isn't one, because it conveys no inherent meaning.

I just hope my testimony is an encouragement to those who question it because they can see that something is wrong with the picture, but just can't put their finger on it.
TD:)
 
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